Is it racist to hate a culture?

[HereAmIAmMe]

Cultures are not wrong, no matter how they appear to us. They are sometimes incompatible. It is not hate to recognize that such incompatibility exists.

Even if the culture condones genital mutilation? How about pedophilia? That's not wrong? Just incompatible?

The only way to say whether anything is right or wrong is to judge it based on your own morality.

I happen to agree with you because I believe in a universal system of morality. Someone who does not believe in a universal system of morality will argue with you about what makes your morality the morality.

 

[Billo_Really]

Jesus Christ.

Who over thinks this much while saying so little?

What's the point other than the self congratulatory slap on the back you have given yourself with this sentence? "I am not very good at identifying people based on a "race." Most of the time someone has to "label" someone as being a particular race for me to know" Aw shucks.

The complete absence of self awareness is only compunded by your overflow of self-absorption.

Welcome to the board!

If you ain't got the chops to go that deep, why respond to his post in the first place?

Or do you enjoy bigotry and hatred and do not want to see any meaningful discussion that would curb a tide of that nature.

 

[Billo_Really]

You know, you're right. That was self-absorbed wasn't it.

I'm sorry.

I thought the point of posting on these forums was to share my point of view. Maybe I was wrong. Should I be sharing your point of view?

That might not be so easy since I haven't lived your life. Oh well. guess I'll have to try harder next time. Can you give me some pointers there?

I am glad you made such a point of declaring me completely un-"self-aware." Does it make you feel good to put others down? If so, I'm glad I could help.

I disagree. It wasn't self-absorbed.

And yes, they love to put others down.

 

[Billo_Really]

The purpose of these forums is to mock people that don't think exactly like you do. You'll figure it out sooner or later. The wide eyed, I'm open to other points of view only works in educational environments and only then if it has a liberal/progressive slant to it. Then you have to be open to new things.

Anything GOP, white, male, or hetero is bad. So, here we are. Your side sucks and so does mine. Still doesn't answer your question, but you already have your answer.

Some things have nothing to do with sides.

 

[Billo_Really]

I've been participating in internet forums for about 15 years. I've never ever seen anyone on any side of an arguement convince someone on the opposing side of changing their opinions. Not. Once.

I've changed my opinion on several occasions. If you have a good enough argument, I got no problem admitting I was wrong and changing my position on a particular issue.

Unfortunately, many people act like admitting they were wrong, is tantamount to death. But then, it's not my problem if they choose to be so immature.

Discussions can happen, but not on any sort of hot button issues. You have two sides shouting down the other, snark and smileys, hand waves and dismissive rants are the norm.

Not all the time. It can happen. If someone wants to have a respectful conversation with me, I'll reciprocate.

Save your optimism for children and nature and real life interactions. You'll find nothing but classless tough wannabe's and shifty liars extrapolating personal experience out to large populations to make a point in most internet forums.

Don't you think you're broadstroking that brush a little too much?

And yes there is a reason why we cannot have meanigful discussion in any forums. And what's really fucked up is that there is not one thing anyone can do about it, ever. That reason? We're human.

You can do something about you, why not work on that?

 

[aplcr0331]

I've been participating in internet forums for about 15 years. I've never ever seen anyone on any side of an arguement convince someone on the opposing side of changing their opinions. Not. Once.

I've changed my opinion on several occasions. If you have a good enough argument, I got no problem admitting I was wrong and changing my position on a particular issue.

Unfortunately, many people act like admitting they were wrong, is tantamount to death. But then, it's not my problem if they choose to be so immature.

Discussions can happen, but not on any sort of hot button issues. You have two sides shouting down the other, snark and smileys, hand waves and dismissive rants are the norm.

Not all the time. It can happen. If someone wants to have a respectful conversation with me, I'll reciprocate.

Save your optimism for children and nature and real life interactions. You'll find nothing but classless tough wannabe's and shifty liars extrapolating personal experience out to large populations to make a point in most internet forums.

Don't you think you're broadstroking that brush a little too much?

And yes there is a reason why we cannot have meanigful discussion in any forums. And what's really fucked up is that there is not one thing anyone can do about it, ever. That reason? We're human.

You can do something about you, why not work on that?

So, you're the one? Impressive, nice to meet you.

 

[poet]

But to make it clearer for everyone let me put it in simpler words:

I am bothered by the cultural habits that many immigrants bring with them to my community. I hate that it seems to be a cultural thing for them to not take care of their property. I hate that my property value declines because those around me don't have the same standards for organization and cleanliness that I do. I don't hate the people but I hate the culture.

Is that the same as being racist?

Yep.

 

[HereAmIAmMe]

But to make it clearer for everyone let me put it in simpler words:

I am bothered by the cultural habits that many immigrants bring with them to my community. I hate that it seems to be a cultural thing for them to not take care of their property. I hate that my property value declines because those around me don't have the same standards for organization and cleanliness that I do. I don't hate the people but I hate the culture.

Is that the same as being racist?

Yep.

I disagree.

 

[Rocko]

It's ethnocentric.

 

[emilynghiem]

It's perfectly normal to have limits on what we can stand, can't stand, like or detest.
What is not healthy is not FORGIVING these things, but attaching hateful
negative thoughts that poison your mind and attract more negative energy/interactions.

For example, if I can't stand loud rap music or crazy country songs,
I don't have to justify or feel bad about that, but it doesn't mean I carry a hateful
grudge for whatever is associated or produces that which I hate and project anger
or other negative emotions/perceptions internally and externally which only hurts myself.
It wastes my mental space and energy I could be focusing on things I ENJOY in life.

So forgiveness and focusing on what we love, instead of fear of what we hate, helps us
release and let go, making room for more positive things we'd rather focus on anyway.

You can still keep your ideas and preferences of what you love and hate. Just don't suppress this with unforgiveness where it creates negative entanglements or cycles of victimhood, fear/guilt or oppression where you feel you have no freedom in the matter.

I'm color blind (or color challenged if you prefer.) I'm talking actual colors here. Red and green to be specific. I noticed it in elementary school when I constantly had to read the labels on crayons to get the colors right.

This is similar to what you could call my "racial vision." I am not very good at identifying people based on a "race." Most of the time someone has to "label" someone as being a particular race for me to know.

And really what difference can "race" make anyways? I mean it's just a wrapper right? Transplant my mind into a body of any kind you like and I would still be me.

Culture on the other hand...

I was dropped into the Philippines with almost no preparation. For the first month I might as well have been on another planet. I could barely understand anyone. The culture was such a shock that I wondered if I would ever be comfortable there. I got used to it eventually. In the end it was as much of a shock returning to the US as it had been going there. I loved the people that i knew in the Philippines. Some of them I hold to be the finest examples of humanity that I will ever encounter. Some aspects of Filipino culture on the other hand still make me cringe. It is common practice, for example, to simply toss trash on the ground in many areas of the Philippines. Its a habit that I find disgusting. It doesn't devalue the people who do it. It is merely a habit that has been developed by living in a specific environment.

When you get used to living a certain way you develop habits that are simply a part of the way you live. It's unavoidable. When you transplant yourself into a different culture and bring those habits with you there will be conflict. Is one culture more valuable than another? That's not for me to say. But when you bring that culture into my neighborhood with all of its differences can I really help it if those differences are hard for me to swallow? And if your culture does have value does not my own culture have value of its own? Am I responsible to change to accommodate your culture? Are you responsible to change to fit in?

As with the Filipinos I can hate an aspect of a culture without hating the people who practice that culture. Is it wrong for me to hate even that much though?

It's natural to like or to hate some things, but not to obsess about avoiding them. better to work out a way of handling it in stride where you don't feel it imposes or makes you feel bad.

I kind of relate to your story, where I used to dread working around people in teh Vietnamese community because I did not speak the language and feared they would judge me for it, since it is considered bad for kids not to speak Vietnamese if your parents are.
When I realized the reason I feared and dreaded people was not because I was judging them for not speaking English but judging myself, then I decided to make the conscious choice to get over this fear, and even commit to trying to learn how to speak Vietnamese. I imagined instead of being embarrassed, I am going to tell people who ask that "I'm learning, will you teach me."
The minute I changed my mind about this, then I saw things differently. I no longer looked at Vietnamese people and culture as foreign and to be feared since I don't know things I feel I should know and it makes me feel bad; but I started seeing them and me as "regular people" with just different language and culture, but not separated from each other where I did not feel I fit in and belonged but felt totally excluded. Now I no longer felt bad after that! All the negative fear and dread went away when I decided to forgive and let go and make a commitment to be open regardless of differences and jsut embrace them and act normal. And sure enough people started acting normal towards me instead of both of us fearing each other because we don't speak the same language and it was causing mutual embarrassment and weird negative vibes. It changed how i saw things, the barriers were gone.

 

[poet]

But to make it clearer for everyone let me put it in simpler words:

I am bothered by the cultural habits that many immigrants bring with them to my community. I hate that it seems to be a cultural thing for them to not take care of their property. I hate that my property value declines because those around me don't have the same standards for organization and cleanliness that I do. I don't hate the people but I hate the culture.

Is that the same as being racist?

Yep.

I disagree.

Then why did you ask? Duh.

 

[Billo_Really]

So, you're the one? Impressive, nice to meet you.

You're welcome!

That'll be $4.50 (+tax)

 

[emilynghiem]

But to make it clearer for everyone let me put it in simpler words:

I am bothered by the cultural habits that many immigrants bring with them to my community. I hate that it seems to be a cultural thing for them to not take care of their property. I hate that my property value declines because those around me don't have the same standards for organization and cleanliness that I do. I don't hate the people but I hate the culture.

Is that the same as being racist?

If you hate that same problem or habit across the board, no matter who does it, then it's the problem itself you hate, and that's natural as long as you do your part not to do that either.

If you assign responsibility or blame more to one group than another, instead of holding yourself and other individuals equally for the problems you cause yourselves, and if you project based on association with that group, then it becomes a problem similar to bigotry.
Anytime you frame an issue as "them vs. us" you are going to introduce division and bias, regardless which culture or group it is.
This is caused by not forgiving either the issue or the group you associate in your mind. So it can be resolved by actively forgiving.

It is a problem in itself not to forgive that issue, where instead of focusing on you, you keep focusing outward on other people doing it. that is going to cause misery by keep projecting responsibility for something that bothers you onto others instead of changing yourself. you risk going in circles, feeling as a victim to something outside yourself you cannot control. that's a problem no matter if it's a person or group, or what culture you blame, unforgiveness is going to burden your mind. one counselor who studied ways of overcoming injustice effectively found that successful people saw themselves as heroes despite setbacks regardless of blame, not victims of other people who caused the problems or setbacks, which had to be forgiven first in order to let go to liberate their minds.

Forgiveness allows the same problems to be addressed and corrected effectively, but WITHOUT adding or projecting any other biases or blame from the past onto add emotional confusion, guilt or fear of helplessness. Better to resolve problems thinking of the present and future with a clear mind, not clouded with emotional attachments to past perceptions of blame of one group or culture more than another, instead of focusing on your responsibility to prevent or correct the problem you dislike so much. Does this make sense?

I think if you commit to forgiving any past emotions or blame associated with this habit or practice you hate so much,
and let that go, then you will clear your mind and can see what steps to take to address the problem effectively without fear. You would still hate the problem, but would focus on it consisently and not target one person or group any more than others who do it.

 

[emilynghiem]

Yep.

I disagree.

Then why did you ask? Duh.

wanted to hear reasons and explanations?
in order to understand why this is seen as racially biased?
whether or not the asker agrees or changes perceptions about it
why or why not?

 

[HereAmIAmMe]

Yep.

I disagree.

Then why did you ask? Duh.

I was opening a discussion when I asked the question. I did not say you are not welcome to your opinion. I am open to discussion. I merely saw your one word response and raised you a two word reply.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi APLCR and LB: yes and no, i'd say you are both right in different contexts.

Where people don't forgive issues or each other, yes, they can project back and forth ad infinitum and get nowhere by slamming back and forth; sometimes this helps to vent and let go, other times it just repeats and escalates and doesn't help release anything toward making progress. You are right about that situation.

Where people do learn to let go, forgive and listen to different or opposing/conflicting views, then amazing synergy and change can take place. It's usually NOT one person changing the other person's mind unless specific points of information are corrected. It's usually people simulatenously changing their perception of what is possible, and look at greater ideas or solutions that neither person originally brought with them, but these were derived later.

For example, I started one conversation on backpage about the trinity in all religions, and ended up learning the ins and outs of how to resolve issues between Jehovah's Witnesses and other Christians, where I was not even aware there were such divisions between them. I had to completely let go and forgive all the abuse and backlash I read online, before I could come back and address things with people on both sides bashing each other, who had not forgiven each other's groups; I had to forgive first or I'd get stuck in the same.

So there is no telling how far-reaching the discussions or exchanges can lead where people agree to open up and try to hear the other points, and accept where the mutual changes can take place to benefit even opposing sides on an issue or argument. the answers are usually beyond what either party originally came in with, so that shows it's not just one person changing the other but everyone growing to include more information and perspectives introduced which they never heard or considered before.

nobody changes any more than anyone else, it's usually mutual and balanced as an equal give and take where all sides benefit and no one controls the other. either they both deadlock or both help each other to gain greater understanding than they had before. the whole process usually turns out greater than the sum of the parts. it just multiplies.

I've been participating in internet forums for about 15 years. I've never ever seen anyone on any side of an arguement convince someone on the opposing side of changing their opinions. Not. Once.

I've changed my opinion on several occasions. If you have a good enough argument, I got no problem admitting I was wrong and changing my position on a particular issue.

Unfortunately, many people act like admitting they were wrong, is tantamount to death. But then, it's not my problem if they choose to be so immature.

Not all the time. It can happen. If someone wants to have a respectful conversation with me, I'll reciprocate.

Don't you think you're broadstroking that brush a little too much?

And yes there is a reason why we cannot have meanigful discussion in any forums. And what's really fucked up is that there is not one thing anyone can do about it, ever. That reason? We're human.

You can do something about you, why not work on that?

So, you're the one? Impressive, nice to meet you.

 

[Billo_Really]

Hi APLCR and LB: yes and no, i'd say you are both right in different contexts.

Where people don't forgive issues or each other, yes, they can project back and forth ad infinitum and get nowhere by slamming back and forth; sometimes this helps to vent and let go, other times it just repeats and escalates and doesn't help release anything toward making progress. You are right about that situation.

Where people do learn to let go, forgive and listen to different or opposing/conflicting views, then amazing synergy and change can take place. It's usually NOT one person changing the other person's mind unless specific points of information are corrected. It's usually people simulatenously changing their perception of what is possible, and look at greater ideas or solutions that neither person originally brought with them, but these were derived later.

For example, I started one conversation on backpage about the trinity in all religions, and ended up learning the ins and outs of how to resolve issues between Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses, where I was not even aware there were such divisions between them.
I had to completely let go and forgive all the abuse and backlash I read online, before I could come back and address things with people on both sides bashing each other, who had not forgiven each other's groups; I had to forgive first or I'd get stuck in the same.

So there is no telling how far-reaching the discussions or exchanges can lead
where people agree to open up and try to hear the other points, and accept where the mutual changes can take place to benefit even opposing sides on an issue or argument. the answers are usually beyond what either party originally came in with, so that shows
it's not just one person changing the other but everyone growing to include more information and perspectives introduced which they never heard or considered before.

nobody changes any more than anyone else, it's usually mutual and balanced as an equal give and take where all sides benefit and no one controls the other. either they both deadlock or both help each other to gain greater understanding than they had before. the whole process usually turns out greater than the sum of the parts. it just multiplies.

For me, I'm not looking for agreement and I'm not looking to change anyone's mind.

I'm just saying what I think needs to be said and letting the chips fall where they may.

 

[HereAmIAmMe]

But to make it clearer for everyone let me put it in simpler words:

I am bothered by the cultural habits that many immigrants bring with them to my community. I hate that it seems to be a cultural thing for them to not take care of their property. I hate that my property value declines because those around me don't have the same standards for organization and cleanliness that I do. I don't hate the people but I hate the culture.

Is that the same as being racist?

If you hate that same problem or habit across the board, no matter who does it, then it's the problem itself you hate, and that's natural as long as you do your part not to do that either.

If you assign responsibility or blame more to one group than another, instead of holding yourself and other individuals equally for the problems you cause yourselves, and if you project based on association with that group, then it becomes a problem similar to bigotry.
Anytime you frame an issue as "them vs. us" you are going to introduce division and bias, regardless which culture or group it is.
This is caused by not forgiving either the issue or the group you associate in your mind. So it can be resolved by actively forgiving.

It is a problem in itself not to forgive that issue, where instead of focusing on you, you keep focusing outward on other people doing it. that is going to cause misery by keep projecting responsibility for something that bothers you onto others instead of changing yourself. you risk going in circles, feeling as a victim to something outside yourself you cannot control. that's a problem no matter if it's a person or group, or what culture you blame, unforgiveness is going to burden your mind. one counselor who studied ways of overcoming injustice effectively found that successful people saw themselves as heroes despite setbacks regardless of blame, not victims of other people who caused the problems or setbacks, which had to be forgiven first in order to let go to liberate their minds.

Forgiveness allows the same problems to be addressed and corrected effectively, but WITHOUT adding or projecting any other biases or blame from the past onto add emotional confusion, guilt or fear of helplessness. Better to resolve problems thinking of the present and future with a clear mind, not clouded with emotional attachments to past perceptions of blame of one group or culture more than another, instead of focusing on your responsibility to prevent or correct the problem you dislike so much. Does this make sense?

I think if you commit to forgiving any past emotions or blame associated with this habit or practice you hate so much,
and let that go, then you will clear your mind and can see what steps to take to address the problem effectively without fear. You would still hate the problem, but would focus on it consisently and not target one person or group any more than others who do it.

(My Bold)

Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

I do indeed hate the problem no matter the source of the problem. If any person (be he white, black, hispanic, asian, etc.) moved in and trashed the neighborhood I would dislike it as strongly. My dilemma, and possibly some small feelings of guilt, comes from the fact that it is overwhelmingly one race that is moving in and acting in this manner. The separation comes from the fact that it is not all Hispanics that act in this manner. It is not a racial thing, it is a cultural thing. The people who are trashing the neighborhood are only doing it because that is the way they were raised. They grew up in impoverished areas where it was the norm to not respect their own or other people's property. They are fine upstanding people in every other way as far as I can tell.

So it is a group of people who are acting in this manner that I dislike. It is specific to this group of people only in this specific time and place.

 

[emilynghiem]

For me, I'm not looking for agreement and I'm not looking to change anyone's mind.

I'm just saying what I think needs to be said and letting the chips fall where they may.

Yes that's part of the process, too, which is greater than us and any of our intent.

Even to perceive and state things, starts to change things.
Even the energy we apply by observing things has an effect.
So as long as we are not projecting negative energy,
examining things in the light of truth and understanding
and sharing is going to move our consciousness more in that direction.
We don't need to be consciously choosing or intending this
to vote in the direction of sharing truth and growing in understanding.

 

[emilynghiem]

(My Bold)

Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

I do indeed hate the problem no matter the source of the problem. If any person (be he white, black, hispanic, asian, etc.) moved in and trashed the neighborhood I would dislike it as strongly. My dilemma, and possibly some small feelings of guilt, comes from the fact that it is overwhelmingly one race that is moving in and acting in this manner. The separation comes from the fact that it is not all Hispanics that act in this manner. It is not a racial thing, it is a cultural thing. The people who are trashing the neighborhood are only doing it because that is the way they were raised. They grew up in impoverished areas where it was the norm to not respect their own or other people's property. They are fine upstanding people in every other way as far as I can tell.

So it is a group of people who are acting in this manner that I dislike. It is specific to this group of people only in this specific time and place.

OK thanks for explaining i can see you are trying to be fair

the differnce that forgiveness makes in this situation
a. if you forgive the cultural reasons for the conditioning
then you would approach teh problem in a forgiving way with
understanding that it comes from someone's upbringing
so when you address the person to correct it, you embrace
this in a positive or neutral way, not negative or feeling bad you are thinking of this
b. if you do not forgive the cultural connection or influence
then it comes across as blaming that culture
and that is what attaches the bad feelings
you sense this in advance, that you don't want to make anyone feel bad,
you are sincere in really trying to address the problem you know is
partially from the person's cultural background they were brought up with

the difference again is forgiveness which can remove that negative element
it will still be true that the cultural background is connected, but this
does not have to be an issue even though it is a factor

would it help to also understand it is people's educational and economic
background; if people don't have a sense of "ownership" of the land
or property or community/city but feel other people are running the show
who don't deserve respect (which happens in my neighborhood) then
this lack of property ownership is partially the cause of lack of esteem and respect

if you read books like Rich Dad Poor Dad this mentality is passed
down if parents don't know how to own or manage houses/business
and their kids don't learn that either; they are different from families
who had this ownership and experience passed down

the african americans were especially set behind 150 years on the learning
curve of owning and managing property because they didn't even own
their own bodies and weren't considered citizens equal under law untli much later

so when you see it as economic stages of growth and development
and certain groups are behind others, then forgiving this whole historic disparity
helps to STOP the blame game and just have pure compassion for
everyone caught up in it, and affected, including slaves still working under
oppression today that don't have the freedom we have in this country.

does it help to forgive all the historic and economic causes of disparity
and just have compassion for all people of all classes suffering from division?

this helps me to reach out and include all people, knowing we are all affected but in different ways. we all share responsibility for the part we can do something about. so as long as you do your part, you should feel you are following a good focus, and not feel bad about others who are responsible for their own part in social change. you are trying to understand, and that's good on your part. i think it will get better when you see how mutual the shared responsibility is, and it's not any one group more than another. EACH group has plusses and minusses. would it help to focus on the GOOD t hings that group or culture has that offers a better benefit or advantage to others, and see that it comes out equal? that the culturual upbringing with stronger points in this area you are bringing up for example, also has weak points causing problems too? so both cultures have equal strength and weakness?
Does this help put it in perspective where you aren't targeting or blaming one culture?