Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[P F Tinmore]

Had the Palestinian Arabs accepted the PArtition plan, would they have had their own state and sovereignty ????

Why would 1.2 million Arabs agree with the UN's decision to give 55% of Mandate Palestine to 650,000 (mostly) European Jews?

Because the British captured the land during WW1, not the Palestinians

Britain never annexed or otherwise claimed ownership of Palestine.

 

[georgephillip]

Had the Palestinian Arabs accepted the PArtition plan, would they have had their own state and sovereignty ????

Why would 1.2 million Arabs agree with the UN's decision to give 55% of Mandate Palestine to 650,000 (mostly) European Jews?

Because the British captured the land during WW1, not the Palestinians

How many Jews lived on the land captured by the British after WWI?
How many Arabs?
Why do racists always object to self-determination at the ballot box?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Not perhaps . The answer is yes

How many sovereign states were created by UN resolution?

What does that have to do with anything ? We're talking about the British Mandate of Palestine

What does that matter? The mandate was to render administrative assistance and advice to Palestine.

 

[RoccoR]

toastman, P F Tinmore, et al,

In a way, P F Tinmore is correct. Sovereignty is a state of being by the people.

Would the UN Partition plan have given them sovereignty ? Yes
Did they reject it? Yes

The UN cannot give sovereignty.

Had the Palestinian Arabs accepted the PArtition plan, would they have had their own state and sovereignty ????

(COMMENT)

The answer is: YES Had the Arab-Palestinians accepted the provisions of the Partition Plan in GA Resolution 181(II), the UN would have (in effect) granted independence from the trusteeship and Mandate. In fact, they would have had more land then just the Gaza Strip and West Bank (See Map Annex A).

The "Arab State" would have been as outlined in Part II Boundaries - Section "A".

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

toastman, P F Tinmore, et al,

In a way, P F Tinmore is correct. Sovereignty is a state of being by the people.

The UN cannot give sovereignty.

Had the Palestinian Arabs accepted the PArtition plan, would they have had their own state and sovereignty ????

(COMMENT)

The answer is: YES Had the Arab-Palestinians accepted the provisions of the Partition Plan in GA Resolution 181(II), the UN would have (in effect) granted independence from the trusteeship and Mandate. In fact, they would have had more land then just the Gaza Strip and West Bank (See Map Annex A).

The "Arab State" would have been as outlined in Part II Boundaries - Section "A".

Most Respectfully,
R

In a way, P F Tinmore is correct. Sovereignty is a state of being by the people.

That is correct. Sovereignty is the inherent right of the native people.

Occupation does not negate rights. It merely temporarily denies the exercise of rights.

 

[Kondor3]

Have we figured out yet that Old Legalities favoring Party B don't mean a damned thing, when Party A has been in possession of the land for 65 years, and is 1,000 times stronger than Party B, and when Party A is backed by Party C, which is 1,000 times stronger than Party A?

The Arab-Muslim Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza would be far better off, packing their belongings and heading for greener pastures, outside of what very little is left of scattered, fragmented Rump Palestine.

There is no future nor happiness to be found for the Arab-Muslim Palestinians in that unhappy place.

Consequently, it's time to move elsewhere, to begin new lives, and to create a future for themselves that will be denied them should they prove foolish enough to remain where they are for another 65 years.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results each time."

Time to wake-up and smell the coffee, Palestinians.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, toastman, et al,

P F Tinmore is partly correct.

Why would 1.2 million Arabs agree with the UN's decision to give 55% of Mandate Palestine to 650,000 (mostly) European Jews?

Because the British captured the land during WW1, not the Palestinians

Britain never annexed or otherwise claimed ownership of Palestine.

(COMMENT)

Again, this is the Palestinian version of the truth. The reality is (rounded off):

• 77% went to form the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.
• 13% went to form the State of Israel.
• 10% went to form the Partition for the rejected Arab State.

The Allied Powers (mostly UK/FR/Arab Bedouins irregulars) secured the Middle East during WWI. At the 1920, San Remo Convention, the Allied Powers on the intent, purpose and language to be used in the in the Treaty of Sevres and the Mandate of Palestine.

The entire territory was relinquished by the Turks from the Ottoman Empire to the Allied Powers in trusteeship. (Part III of the Treaty.) By the time the War ended, the Allied Forces (UK/FR/Arab Bedouins irregulars) had militarily secured the entire region. For the UK side, General Allenby had already begun reporting on the territorial administration as of the 1st JULY, 1920; which "included in the area of the Palestine Mandate was the territory of Trans-Jordania (Report Part X). This was pursuant and IAW the San Remo outline (made three months prior) and prior to the formalization of the Mandate.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, toastman, et al,

P F Tinmore is partly correct.

Because the British captured the land during WW1, not the Palestinians

Britain never annexed or otherwise claimed ownership of Palestine.

(COMMENT)

Again, this is the Palestinian version of the truth. The reality is (rounded off):

• 77% went to form the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.
• 13% went to form the State of Israel.
• 10% went to form the Partition for the rejected Arab State.

The Allied Powers (mostly UK/FR/Arab Bedouins irregulars) secured the Middle East during WWI. At the 1920, San Remo Convention, the Allied Powers on the intent, purpose and language to be used in the in the Treaty of Sevres and the Mandate of Palestine.

The entire territory was relinquished by the Turks from the Ottoman Empire to the Allied Powers in trusteeship. (Part III of the Treaty.) By the time the War ended, the Allied Forces (UK/FR/Arab Bedouins irregulars) had militarily secured the entire region. For the UK side, General Allenby had already begun reporting on the territorial administration as of the 1st JULY, 1920; which "included in the area of the Palestine Mandate was the territory of Trans-Jordania (Report Part X). This was pursuant and IAW the San Remo outline (made three months prior) and prior to the formalization of the Mandate.

Most Respectfully,
R

And the relevance of all that is?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore,

Just making sure the record is complete.

And the relevance of all that is?

(COMMENT)

We would not want unsuspecting readers to believe that a disproportionate distribution of territory was made, or that the Mandatory did not have cognizant authority over Palestine.

v/r
R

 

[Kondor3]

"...Why would 1.2 million Arabs agree with the UN's decision to give 55% of Mandate Palestine to 650,000 (mostly) European Jews?"

Their consent was not deemed necessary at the time by either the victorious Allied Powers who seized the land from the Ottoman Empire nor by the League of Nations.

The Arabs of Palestine were merely conquered subjects of the Ottoman Empire with no clear-cut national identity nor autonomy nor sovereignty of their own and they were (rightfully) judged as unorganized (in a political and national sense) and politically and socially incompetent to govern themselves as a sovereignty in the modern world.

So the people in charge of the region divvied-up the place and carved off a big slice for far more civilized immigrant-folk who showed some potential for turning the place into something worthwhile and productive for the first time in centuries.

It was the misfortune of the disorganized, disjointed tribal folk of the region in those former times to have never evolved (politically and socially) to a self-governing state or to have degenerated into such a state so as to make themselves vulnerable to such treatment by powers and peoples far more advanced and sophisticated than themselves.

Their descendants are still paying a price for that, although the end-game is fast approaching, as the last of them are being squeezed off their land and forced to move elsewhere.

It need not have come to that, and their Adversaries were still open to talks of a serious political settlement, right up to the time of the 1967 war, but, as usual, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity, and the moment passed - major concessions by the Israelis are off the table, and have been, since 1967 - and, from their perspective, rightfully so.

Next time, don't pick a fight alongside lying Arab neighbors who promise mountains (Redemption) but deliver molehills (defeat) - 1948, 1967, 1973 - and expect to emerge intact.

Vae victus.

Karma is a *****.

Perhaps in the Next Life the Palestinians won't allow themselves to degenerate and disintegrate so badly that they are considered politically incompetent and have Empires and Mandates and Leagues making decisions for them like children.

But that's the fate they're stuck with, in this life.

It's over... time for the Palestinians to emmigrate, and move on with their lives and futures, someplace else, where they stand some chance of finding peace and happiness.

After 65 years, the world at-large is bloody sick-and-tired of listening to this shit over a sliver of land in a corner of the Med.

The world at-large just wants this to be over with, one way or the other, and the sooner the better.

The Israelis understand this as well.

Consolidation and mop-up operations continue.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...Why would 1.2 million Arabs agree with the UN's decision to give 55% of Mandate Palestine to 650,000 (mostly) European Jews?"

Their consent was not deemed necessary at the time by either the victorious Allied Powers who seized the land from the Ottoman Empire nor by the League of Nations.

The Arabs of Palestine were merely conquered subjects of the Ottoman Empire with no clear-cut national identity nor autonomy nor sovereignty of their own and they were (rightfully) judged as unorganized (in a political and national sense) and politically and socially incompetent to govern themselves as a sovereignty in the modern world.

So the people in charge of the region divvied-up the place and carved off a big slice for far more civilized immigrant-folk who showed some potential for turning the place into something worthwhile and productive for the first time in centuries.

It was the misfortune of the disorganized, disjointed tribal folk of the region in those former times to have never evolved (politically and socially) to a self-governing state or to have degenerated into such a state so as to make themselves vulnerable to such treatment by powers and peoples far more advanced and sophisticated than themselves.

Their descendants are still paying a price for that, although the end-game is fast approaching, as the last of them are being squeezed off their land and forced to move elsewhere.

It need not have come to that, and their Adversaries were still open to talks of a serious political settlement, right up to the time of the 1967 war, but, as usual, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity, and the moment passed - major concessions by the Israelis are off the table, and have been, since 1967 - and, from their perspective, rightfully so.

Next time, don't pick a fight alongside lying Arab neighbors who promise mountains (Redemption) but deliver molehills (defeat) - 1948, 1967, 1973 - and expect to emerge intact.

Vae victus.

Karma is a *****.

Perhaps in the Next Life the Palestinians won't allow themselves to degenerate and disintegrate so badly that they are considered politically incompetent and have Empires and Mandates and Leagues making decisions for them like children.

But that's the fate they're stuck with, in this life.

It's over... time for the Palestinians to emmigrate, and move on with their lives and futures, someplace else, where they stand some chance of finding peace and happiness.

After 65 years, the world at-large is bloody sick-and-tired of listening to this shit over a sliver of land in a corner of the Med.

The world at-large just wants this to be over with, one way or the other, and the sooner the better.

The Israelis understand this as well.

Consolidation and mop-up operations continue.

Their consent was necessary. The plan was not to be implemented without the consent of the Palestinians.

The Palestinians rejected the plan so it was not implemented.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore,

Just making sure the record is complete.

And the relevance of all that is?

(COMMENT)

We would not want unsuspecting readers to believe that a disproportionate distribution of territory was made, or that the Mandatory did not have cognizant authority over Palestine.

v/r
R

There was no distribution of territory under resolution 181.

 

[toastman]

"...Why would 1.2 million Arabs agree with the UN's decision to give 55% of Mandate Palestine to 650,000 (mostly) European Jews?"

Their consent was not deemed necessary at the time by either the victorious Allied Powers who seized the land from the Ottoman Empire nor by the League of Nations.

The Arabs of Palestine were merely conquered subjects of the Ottoman Empire with no clear-cut national identity nor autonomy nor sovereignty of their own and they were (rightfully) judged as unorganized (in a political and national sense) and politically and socially incompetent to govern themselves as a sovereignty in the modern world.

So the people in charge of the region divvied-up the place and carved off a big slice for far more civilized immigrant-folk who showed some potential for turning the place into something worthwhile and productive for the first time in centuries.

It was the misfortune of the disorganized, disjointed tribal folk of the region in those former times to have never evolved (politically and socially) to a self-governing state or to have degenerated into such a state so as to make themselves vulnerable to such treatment by powers and peoples far more advanced and sophisticated than themselves.

Their descendants are still paying a price for that, although the end-game is fast approaching, as the last of them are being squeezed off their land and forced to move elsewhere.

It need not have come to that, and their Adversaries were still open to talks of a serious political settlement, right up to the time of the 1967 war, but, as usual, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity, and the moment passed - major concessions by the Israelis are off the table, and have been, since 1967 - and, from their perspective, rightfully so.

Next time, don't pick a fight alongside lying Arab neighbors who promise mountains (Redemption) but deliver molehills (defeat) - 1948, 1967, 1973 - and expect to emerge intact.

Vae victus.

Karma is a *****.

Perhaps in the Next Life the Palestinians won't allow themselves to degenerate and disintegrate so badly that they are considered politically incompetent and have Empires and Mandates and Leagues making decisions for them like children.

But that's the fate they're stuck with, in this life.

It's over... time for the Palestinians to emmigrate, and move on with their lives and futures, someplace else, where they stand some chance of finding peace and happiness.

After 65 years, the world at-large is bloody sick-and-tired of listening to this shit over a sliver of land in a corner of the Med.

The world at-large just wants this to be over with, one way or the other, and the sooner the better.

The Israelis understand this as well.

Consolidation and mop-up operations continue.

Their consent was necessary. The plan was not to be implemented without the consent of the Palestinians.

The Palestinians rejected the plan so it was not implemented.

You've made that claim many time. Where did you read that? (the bold)

 

[Kondor3]

"...Their consent was necessary.The plan was not to be implemented without the consent of the Palestinians..."

Indeed.

I was mistakenly dwelling upon old Mandate and League determinations while George's question was actually about the UN Plan.

My bad... I should have paid closer attention to the tag-line in that post.

The comments still stand, in that 'alternative' context, but they don't apply to UN determinations.

"...The Palestinians rejected the plan so it was not implemented."

Correct.

So the Jews formulated a plan of their own.

And succeeded.

Being recognized by the UN as a fait accompli in 1949.

Sweeping away old legalities and arguments with the flick of a pen.

The UN has never had a closely vested interest in 'defending' Old Palestine.

There wasn't much there worth defending, and the New Tenants are doing much more with the place the the old bunch ever did.

Besides, the old bunch can go elsewhere and survive, in the surrounding countryside, amongst their ethnic brethren and co-religionists.

The New Tenants have nowhere else to go, and they have an old, rusted-over claim anyway which serves as a convenient conscience-soother for most non-Muslim folk.

The UN, and the EU, and even the US, can thump their chests and shake their fingers at Israel from time to time, for showmanship's sake, but, secretly, and in the main, they're on Israel's side and cheering for them when the Muslims aren't looking.

If the Muslims have a Patron Saint of Lost Causes, there's a good chance he was Palestinian.

The sad truth is, none of that old legal horseshit matters one little bit in today's Real World.

I understand why you cling to it.

You have very little else to cling to, in this context.

But it will avail you nothing.

Nothing.

The war for Palestine is over, and it's been over, for a very long time now.

Time to toss in the towel and seek life elsewhere.

 

[RoccoR]

toastman, et al,

He did not read the Partition Plans as passed by the General Assembly. Otherwise he would know.

The Palestinians rejected the plan so it was not implemented.

You've made that claim many time. Where did you read that? (the bold)

(COMMENT)

The Security Council had implemented the Plan, and that is when the Arab Higher Council formally rejected it. So the implementation went on without them.

But the stanch insistence that there was no validity flies in the face of the Palestinian recognition of GA Resolution 181(II). If he doesn't believe his own kind, he'll never believe us.

Recalling the Words of HAMAS: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. "
Recalling the Words of HAMAS: "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

"...Recalling the Words of HAMAS: 'There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad'..."

Then Hamas must be destroyed, like the mad dog that it is.

 

[georgephillip]

"...Recalling the Words of HAMAS: 'There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad'..."

Then Hamas must be destroyed, like the mad dog that it is.

Racists should be destroyed on both sides of the Green Line starting with those who control the monopoly of violence:

"According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done 'little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens.'[8]

"The 2005 US Department of State report on Israel wrote: '[T]he government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including... institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country’s Arab citizens.'[9]

"The 2010 U.S. State Department Country Report stated that Israeli law prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, and that government effectively enforced these prohibitions.[10] Former Likud MK and Minister of Defense Moshe Arens has criticized the treatment of minorities in Israel, saying that they did not bear the full obligation of Israeli citizenship, nor were they extended the full privileges of citizenship.[11]"

Racism in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

650, 000 Jews inflicted an ethnocracy on 1.2 million non-Jews in 1948 and three generations later their racist state is swirling the same drain as White South Africa a generation ago.

Can you hear the FLUSH?

 

[Bloodrock44]

"...Recalling the Words of HAMAS: 'There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad'..."

Then Hamas must be destroyed, like the mad dog that it is.

Racists should be destroyed on both sides of the Green Line starting with those who control the monopoly of violence:

"According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done 'little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens.'[8]

"The 2005 US Department of State report on Israel wrote: '[T]he government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including... institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country’s Arab citizens.'[9]

"The 2010 U.S. State Department Country Report stated that Israeli law prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, and that government effectively enforced these prohibitions.[10] Former Likud MK and Minister of Defense Moshe Arens has criticized the treatment of minorities in Israel, saying that they did not bear the full obligation of Israeli citizenship, nor were they extended the full privileges of citizenship.[11]"

Racism in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

650, 000 Jews inflicted an ethnocracy on 1.2 million non-Jews in 1948 and three generations later their racist state is swirling the same drain as White South Africa a generation ago.

Can you hear the FLUSH?

I was beginning to worry Georgie. You hadn't mentioned racism for several minutes.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Recalling the Words of HAMAS: 'There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad'..."

Then Hamas must be destroyed, like the mad dog that it is.

Racists should be destroyed on both sides of the Green Line starting with those who control the monopoly of violence: ...

Now, all you need is the muscle to destroy the Israelis.

The Israelis, on the other hand, already have the muscle to destroy Hamas.

They have simply refrained from using that muscle to date for international political reasons.

I wouldn't count on that restraint lasting much longer if I were you.

"...According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports...

...The 2005 US Department of State report on Israel...

...The 2010 U.S. State Department Country Report...

That's nice.

That and $3.50 will get you a cup of Starbucks.

Or you can always use the reports when you run out of toilet paper.

"...650,000 Jews inflicted an ethnocracy on 1.2 million non-Jews in 1948 and three generations later their racist state is swirling the same drain as White South Africa a generation ago..."

Well, that's one interpretation, certainly.

You can always hope, I suppose.

But I wouldn't bet your paycheck on it.

"...Can you hear the FLUSH?"

No, but I can hear the laughter at your unrealistic pie-in-the-sky rant...

 

[RoccoR]

georgephillip, et al,

I keep asking!

"...Recalling the Words of HAMAS: 'There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad'..."

Then Hamas must be destroyed, like the mad dog that it is.

Racists should be destroyed on both sides of the Green Line starting with those who control the monopoly of violence:

"According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done 'little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens.'[8]

"The 2005 US Department of State report on Israel wrote: '[T]he government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including... institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country’s Arab citizens.'[9]

"The 2010 U.S. State Department Country Report stated that Israeli law prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, and that government effectively enforced these prohibitions.[10] Former Likud MK and Minister of Defense Moshe Arens has criticized the treatment of minorities in Israel, saying that they did not bear the full obligation of Israeli citizenship, nor were they extended the full privileges of citizenship.[11]"

Racism in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

650, 000 Jews inflicted an ethnocracy on 1.2 million non-Jews in 1948 and three generations later their racist state is swirling the same drain as White South Africa a generation ago.

Can you hear the FLUSH?

(QUESTION)

What are the two (or more) races involved in the Racism?

Most Respectfully,
R