Is education a right or a privilege?

[DamnYankee]

No way in hell that the average citizen is well enough informed to be a good citizen by 6th grade.

In the first place, you don't know anything about economics and economics is what makes our world go round.

Who the hell are you responding to?

 

[editec]

Annie

 

[RetiredGySgt]

In a democratic republic an informed citizenry is absolutely essantial.

That's exactly why the neo-cn bastards have basically declared war on education.

Their goal is the end of the Republic and all vestages of the democratic aspects of it.

And they're winning, too, much thanks to their many citizen tools.

Ohh look the man that wanted the US Government to seize every single aspect of medical care, treatment or any related business and Nationalize it so they could "control" costs.

You are a LYING piece of shit in this case. No one advocates the elimination of Education, RETARD, they want the Federal Government OUT.

 

[DavidS]

In a democratic republic an informed citizenry is absolutely essantial.

That's exactly why the neo-cn bastards have basically declared war on education.

Their goal is the end of the Republic and all vestages of the democratic aspects of it.

And they're winning, too, much thanks to their many citizen tools.

Ohh look the man that wanted the US Government to seize every single aspect of medical care, treatment or any related business and Nationalize it so they could "control" costs.

You are a LYING piece of shit in this case. No one advocates the elimination of Education, RETARD, they want the Federal Government OUT.

I don't get it - what the fuck is the difference if you have a state gov't involved or if you have a federal gov't involved? I don't get this whole states this states that.

 

[DavidS]

It is not a right. It is a privilege and one we PAY for. It is mandatory to get an education until a certain age, that still does not make it a right. Everyone that pays property tax and sales tax pays for education.

It is a protected privilege, in that the Government ensures certain basic standards are met.

The Federal Government has zero authority to have any dealings outside of basic protections in Education. They have no authority to dictate to a State or County how they will run their schools, EXCEPT for some basic protections provided by the Constitutional Amendments.

Incorrect. Remember segregation? Brown v. Board of Education?

Segregation breaks the basic law of the land. It is a BASIC protection the Government can enforce. It does not , however, give the Government any authority to pay for or tax for education, not to interfere in the school systems of the several States, EXCEPT to ensure they meet the basic protections of the privilege as protected by amendments in the Constitution.

Legally a State could decide it would no longer provide school at all. As long as it was a UNIFORM decision that equally effected every citizen in the State the Federal Government has NO authority to enforce that the State run a school system.

Please show me where it says it's legal to NOT provide education for any students K-12.

 

[xotoxi]

Education is a right and should be available through the first 12 grades.

After that, I think that our society should not make college free, but should make it acheivable for anyone who wants to work for it.

College should not only be available for the elite, but for the intelligent.

 

[DavidS]

Education is a universal human right, and that's not an "opinion," it is a fact.

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

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Uh and what if a member of the UN doesn't do this? What's the UN going to do? Sorry, but I'm not really concern with what laws the UN puts out and doesn't put out. I'm only concerned with the laws my state and federal government put out.

Should college education be "free"? Well, I mean, that depends how far you want to go. College education is absolutely free in many places [obviously you pay taxes, so it's not "free", but it's free for students], I believe in France and Argentina for example, I'm pretty sure you pay nothing. Here in Costa Rica you pay some token amount I believe, something like ~$50 per semester for one of the National Universities, though there are also many private universities. In Canada, all universities are public, but education is certainly not free- most Canadians have to pay around ~$5000 per semester (though, of course, the Quebecois only pay $1,700 per semester- talk about bang for your buck; in North America anyway). However, many of my friends in Canada also have some thing called OSAP (I think thats the acronym) which is basically a huge cash transfer for students, and it pays most of the tuition depending on how much you need. One of my roomates was basically going for free [not including room and board] and another got pretty much most of it crossed off. I think that is actually a good way to go about it, because with cash-transfer schemes those who can pay, pay, and that allows the institutions to get money, but at the same time the transfers allow anyone who gets in to afford it even if they cannot pay it. I'm sure there is something similar in America, but with tuition being something ridiculous like $40,000 a year I don't think you can really do much with cash-transfer programs. In fact that is the single biggest factor why I now live in Canada and not the US: I could pay $16,000 for a world-class education at a world-class university in Canada, or I could fork over $50,000 dollars at NYU for the same exact thing. Kind of a no-brainer.

It would be nice if the US paid for college education for all students. When the states decided to to use property taxes to fund the education system, only the rich people went to college. Now today college is as big of a requirement as high school was back then.

I would support a federal tax increase so we could all have free, university level education at college. The system is broken right now and people who are not doing well cannot afford college. Pell grants are only effective if the student is declared an independent - which no student under 25 is, even if they're living alone and paying their own bills without a dime from mommy and daddy. So either change Pell grants to give ALL students what it used to give only independent students AND lower the financial qualifcations for what a parent earns in order to qualify AND double if not triple the amount of money a pell grant gives OR make college education absolutely free for everyone.

 

[DavidS]

After that, I think that our society should not make college free, but should make it acheivable for anyone who wants to work for it.

What do you mean "work for it?" How does an 18 year old kid who's never had a job in his life "work for something" that's too expensive for their parents to afford and too expensive for them to afford?

College should not only be available for the elite, but for the intelligent.

College should be available for everyone - not just the elite or the intelligent. Can you imagine if college education, from the first year all the way through receiving a doctorate was free? Our society, overall would be much more intelligent.

 

[DavidS]

No way in hell that the average citizen is well enough informed to be a good citizen by 6th grade.

In the first place, you don't know anything about economics and economics is what makes our world go round.

Who the hell are you responding to?

It's editec.. he kinda goes off on his own tangents every now and then.

 

[DavidS]

Well, now that's a good way to derail a thread, but it's absolutely irrelevant. That doesn't say marriage is between a man and a woman, it's saying both men and women of full age can marry; it doesn't say who they can marry. It doesn't say "Men and women of full age [...] have the right to marry ONLY EACH OTHER." Wouldn't be opposed to adding "sexual orientation" after religion either, though, I guess. In any case, that was in 1948: gay rights were probably not high on the agenda back then.

No, but you can interpret that as no one has the right to restrict who can marry who. Every man has the right to marry - so if he wants to marry his male partner, he should be able to. It says nothing about who you can marry.

 

[xotoxi]

After that, I think that our society should not make college free, but should make it acheivable for anyone who wants to work for it.

What do you mean "work for it?" How does an 18 year old kid who's never had a job in his life "work for something" that's too expensive for their parents to afford and too expensive for them to afford?

By "work for it", I meant anyone that wants to work hard to succeed (i.e. study, dedicate themselves, etc)

 

[Oddball]

A "right" as defined how and by whom??

If your "right" imposes an obligation and compulsion upon someone else to perform and provide the given "right" to you, it's a pretty sketchy proposition.

 

[xotoxi]

College should not only be available for the elite, but for the intelligent.

College should be available for everyone - not just the elite or the intelligent. Can you imagine if college education, from the first year all the way through receiving a doctorate was free? Our society, overall would be much more intelligent.

Wrong. Our society would be over educated.

Just because one goes to college does not make them intelligent.

Don't get me wrong...I'd love for education to be 100% free, but that is entirely unrealistic.

I have a medical school debt of nearly $200,000, but that was my choice. I invested in my education. I could have chosen a less expensive route, but at least I was allowed the opportunity to earn an education.

 

[Oddball]

Education is a universal human right, and that's not an "opinion," it is a fact.

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

------

So, you're going to quote and organization that has the biggest weasel provision in its "universal declaration", which says that all the aforementioned "rights" are null and void if they dare to be used to work as cross-purposes to we who are giving you these "rights"??

Uh-huh.....Suuuuure.

 

[midcan5]

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein

Are there any Wittgenstein fans out there. Ludwig thought he answered all the questions of philosophy with his Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus and ended it with the quote above. The book is so dense it is simple and hardly anyone agrees or even understands it. But LW was on to a fundamental truth that he took up differently in PI, it is language that is the confusion here. We could spend a month of Sundays arguing over what a right is and how it was conferred on a citizen. And even then we have to know what we mean by citizen. We cannot point to a right. But in a court of law as in a court of social values, these things we cannot point to are debated, argued, and voted on, a scale tilts in one direction and some (me included) recognize that education is important on a number of levels and worth being considered a right.

The above question should have included 'Both' and 'More' - More = the intangibles.

 

[midcan5]

Wrong. Our society would be over educated.

Or wrongly educated. Some of the best people I have worked with in 40 years of work had no college, some were great mechanics, some electronic wizards, some natural programmers, and other project and administration experts. But that said a certain level of education is needed unless one is Amish. The trouble here is our manufacturing, technical, and craft jobs are going overseas due to a free market cheap is best mentality that is just plain stupid.

 

[editec]

In a democratic republic an informed citizenry is absolutely essantial.

That's exactly why the neo-cn bastards have basically declared war on education.

Their goal is the end of the Republic and all vestages of the democratic aspects of it.

And they're winning, too, much thanks to their many citizen tools.

Ohh look the man that wanted the US Government to seize every single aspect of medical care, treatment or any related business and Nationalize it so they could "control" costs.

You still trying to mischaracterize my position regarding health care, I see.

I can't help but wonder whether you're simply an idiot or a malicious liar.


Of course given that my posts are still on line for all to read, posts which are very clearly not saying what you claim that they say, you might very well be both a malicious liar and an idiot as well.

Whatever, have a swell day, champ.

 

[Annie]

No way in hell that the average citizen is well enough informed to be a good citizen by 6th grade.

In the first place, you don't know anything about economics and economics is what makes our world go round.

Wrong. They have basics down, including basic econ. They have the ability to read and make inferences. Come to think about it, that's more than average voter does.

 

[RodISHI]

Wrong. Our society would be over educated.

Or wrongly educated. Some of the best people I have worked with in 40 years of work had no college, some were great mechanics, some electronic wizards, some natural programmers, and other project and administration experts. But that said a certain level of education is needed unless one is Amish. The trouble here is our manufacturing, technical, and craft jobs are going overseas due to a free market cheap is best mentality that is just plain stupid.

Natural talent does not appear to be a consideration in previous posts.

Jobs going overseas may be a part of the problem, I think at this point that is a given. It is the American public that is bailing out banks and corporates but the job losses are still mounting. The money appears to go to the high end of the ladder and not the low end of the ladder.

IMO, Primary education is a right and secondary education is a privilege.

I am somewhat in agreement with Annie's post. A sixth grade education used give the basics that a person needs.

As far as editec's notion that a sixth grader does not understand economics. I'm not sure that is always the case. Most sixth graders in my day had piggy banks, mowed lawns, had paper routes, shoveled snow, washed and waxed cars, babysitting, etc... I knew how far my dollar would go back when I was nine. I agree maybe not everyone does but nevertheless, this does not negate from the fact that the earlier these traits are instilled the better equipped children will be when they become adults. Granted the money may not be the same as a college corrupted Wall Street stockbroker, but the values that the stockbroker is missing will be retained by the sixth grader. The difference is, it's the sixth graders money that the stockbroker is using to play the field.

 

[manifold]

Like everything else, it is what we collectively decide it is.

IMO, basic education should probably be a right. And by basic I mean math, reading and writing to roughly a sixth grade level. I don't see much value in making it a right beyond that.