iraqi death squads

[jodylee]

Night after night death squads rampage through Iraq's main cities. In Baghdad, up to a hundred bodies a day are dumped on the streets. Often they've been tortured with electric drills. Yet those doing the killing have little to do with al Qaeda or Sunni insurgents. The majority of the killings are carried out by Shia death squads who want to turn Iraq into a Shia state aligned to Iran.
in turn sunnis set car bombs in shia area as revenge. this is picked up by the media as insugency, as this is policaliy more convienient as can be linked to terrorisum.
Im not saying insugency doesn't exsist but it is just one part of the picture.

the minister for the interior Bayan Jabr needs to be removed, I have no dought he is the man behind the death squads, and so do many senior us officals.

I predict the only end to this violence is to split the country, just like the british did with india and pakestan.

 

[insein]

proof? link? or is this just from your mind?

 

[CockySOB]

Night after night death squads rampage through Iraq's main cities. In Baghdad, up to a hundred bodies a day are dumped on the streets. Often they've been tortured with electric drills. Yet those doing the killing have little to do with al Qaeda or Sunni insurgents. The majority of the killings are carried out by Shia death squads who want to turn Iraq into a Shia state aligned to Iran.
in turn sunnis set car bombs in shia area as revenge. this is picked up by the media as insugency, as this is policaliy more convienient as can be linked to terrorisum.
Im not saying insugency doesn't exsist but it is just one part of the picture.

the minister for the interior Bayan Jabr needs to be removed, I have no dought he is the man behind the death squads, and so do many senior us officals.

I predict the only end to this violence is to split the country, just like the british did with india and pakestan.

Post relevant citations and evidence. This means post links to news articles which support your claims, or they will be nothing more than idle speculation on your part, and spam for those here. Intelligent discourse requires facts and logic, and not merely emotional or sensational remarks.

Have a nice day.

 

[jodylee]

when my prediction turns out to be true, thats evidence enough. just like my predictions before the war, when I, and the most of the world said, dont go into iraq, its a mistake. if it wasn't why did rumsfeld give up his possition. Im sure you will tel me other some excuse why.

 

[theHawk]

Night after night death squads rampage through Iraq's main cities. In Baghdad, up to a hundred bodies a day are dumped on the streets. Often they've been tortured with electric drills.

This is not a prediction its a statement of fact. Now back it up...

 

[jodylee]

I ment the predition at the end, but anyway.
Why did Zalmay Khalilzad US ambassador call for the sacking of Bayan Jabr
saying
"It will be important that the head of security ministries be trusted by all communities and not come from elements of the population that have militias."

why is he not trusted by comunities, dont you think the people that live in iraq know a bit more than you do.

As well as the two US advisers to Bayan Jabr. who,at the very start of the governments forming, advised the US gov to remove him, They themselves where removed. Who knows more than the people who are embeded.
you will never get concreat evidence, this does not mean it isn't happening if you listen to enough people in possitions of authority saying the same thing it is ignorant to say they are talking rubbish

 

[theHawk]

I ment the predition at the end, but anyway.
Why did Zalmay Khalilzad US ambassador call for the sacking of Bayan Jabr
saying
"It will be important that the head of security ministries be trusted by all communities and not come from elements of the population that have militias."

why is he not trusted by comunities, dont you think the people that live in iraq know a bit more than you do.

As well as the two US advisers to Bayan Jabr. who,at the very start of the governments forming, advised the US gov to remove him, They themselves where removed. Who knows more than the people who are embeded.
you will never get concreat evidence, this does not mean it isn't happening if you listen to enough people in possitions of authority saying the same thing it is ignorant to say they are talking rubbish

You don't seem to understand what we are asking of you. We have no idea who you are so we have no reason to believe anything you say if you don't back up what you are saying with links to verify it all.
The least you could do is introduce yourself being new to the board. Shed some light on who you are and where you are from...

 

[jodylee]

why would you want to know who i am im just trying to get an idea of what americans think is going on in iraq. Im not from any possition of authority and I have no hidden agenda. if you must know who I am this is my myspace address: oh, it wont let me
If this forum only takes you seriously or bothers to talk if you have a specific experience that can back up stories with personal experience, then Its not the forum for me. I just like to express my opinion and hope for a counter argument, its a laugh, play the game.
I would like to know wether the death squad issue has ever been raised in this forum.

 

[theHawk]

If this forum only takes you seriously or bothers to talk if you have a specific experience that can back up stories with personal experience, then Its not the forum for me.

Well that pretty much sums it up.

 

[CockySOB]

why would you want to know who i am im just trying to get an idea of what americans think is going on in iraq. Im not from any possition of authority and I have no hidden agenda. if you must know who I am this is my myspace address: oh, it wont let me
If this forum only takes you seriously or bothers to talk if you have a specific experience that can back up stories with personal experience, then Its not the forum for me. I just like to express my opinion and hope for a counter argument, its a laugh, play the game.
I would like to know wether the death squad issue has ever been raised in this forum.

If you cannot back up your statements with fact, then simply refer to your statements as being "opinion." If you have facts and logic to support your position, then present that evidence and feel free to refer to it as "fact."

For instance, I could say that that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Now if I claim this as "fact," then I had better have some citations to back up that "fact." However, if I say "I believe the Sun revolves around the Earth," then I have stated an opinion, which does NOT require any supporting evidence. Everyone has opinions, and those opinions are valid for the individual. however, when you wish to assert something as "fact," be ready to demonstrate exactly why it is a fact.

BTW, wikipedia sources are NOT fact. They might lead you to other sources which provide verification, but in and of themselves, wikipedia entries have little weight.

 

[insein]

why would you want to know who i am im just trying to get an idea of what americans think is going on in iraq. Im not from any possition of authority and I have no hidden agenda. if you must know who I am this is my myspace address: oh, it wont let me
If this forum only takes you seriously or bothers to talk if you have a specific experience that can back up stories with personal experience, then Its not the forum for me. I just like to express my opinion and hope for a counter argument, its a laugh, play the game.
I would like to know wether the death squad issue has ever been raised in this forum.

Why would the death squad issue be raised when there's no proof it exists? It'd be like "Why don't more people talk about the race of aliens that come here every night and rape millions of people in the ass?"

Here's how a forum works since your new. You post an article or a blog or a relavant topic from a somewhat credible source about an issue. Then you give your opinion on the issue. Then people respond to your opinions with their own opinion or other articles that prove or disprove your own. When you just make shit up and then expect people to take you seriously your going to be laughed at on most legitimate message boards.

However, if you do want a board where you can go and make shit up without any proof i suggest here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com

Feel free to throw any wild eyed theory about anything and you'll be most welcome there. Facts need not apply.

 

[Darwins Friend]

Support our Troops: Everything is going well in Baghdad and all of Iraq in general. Best not to say anything if you can’t say something nice about the latest American plan, method, strategy or idea.

 

[insein]

Support our Troops: Everything is going well in Baghdad and all of Iraq in general. Best not to say anything if you can’t say something nice about the latest American plan, method, strategy or idea.

What are you the same person? Where do they come from?

People, we can have intelligent conversations about the war if you bring specific stuff to the table. But when you bring ridiculous allegations and try to pass them as fact then your credibility will be suspect. Then to compound the matter by having a random "New user" show up in the thread and parrot the same ideals as the poster, then all credibility is lost and no one will take you seriously.

 

[Darwins Friend]

What are you the same person? Where do they come from?

People, we can have intelligent conversations about the war if you bring specific stuff to the table. But when you bring ridiculous allegations and try to pass them as fact then your credibility will be suspect. Then to compound the matter by having a random "New user" show up in the thread and parrot the same ideals as the poster, then all credibility is lost and no one will take you seriously.

Posted on Wed, Jan. 10, 2007

U.S. AT WAR COMMENTARY
Best hope now for Iraq is to salvage something

By DAVID BROOKS
Columnist

Picture the person you love most in the world. Now imagine that person shredded by a bomb or dropped off one morning in the gutter with holes drilled through the back of the head.

Imagine your lifelong rage and the terror of not knowing who will die next. Now imagine this has happened to someone in nearly every family on your block, and on the next block, and in the whole town.

This is Iraqi society.

And yet Gen. George Casey and Gen. John Abizaid wanted to put the burden of nation-building on the victims and initiators of this maelstrom. U.S. war strategy for the past three years has been to lighten the American footprint in Iraq and compel Iraqis to undertake the policing tasks we ourselves couldn’t accomplish.

Over this time a chorus has arisen to oppose this strategy. The members of this chorus argue that it’s simply unrealistic to expect human beings in these circumstances to become impartial nation-builders. They have argued, since the summer of 2003, that the United States must commit more troops to establish security before anything else becomes possible.

For more than three years, President Bush sided with the light-footprint school. He did so for personal reasons, not military ones. Casey and Abizaid are impressive men, and Bush deferred to their judgment.

But sometimes good men make bad choices, and it is now clear that the light-footprint approach has been a disaster. If the United States had committed more troops and established security back in 2003, when, as Fareed Zakaria of Newsweek recently reminded us, the Coalition Provisional Authority had 70 percent approval ratings, history would be different.

It is now 2007, and Bush has finally replaced Donald Rumsfeld, Casey and Abizaid. The question now is whether the policy that should have been implemented in 2003 can still be implemented four years on.

Many in and out of the administration think so, hence all the talk about a surge — putting 20,000 more troops into Baghdad.

Unfortunately, if the goal is to create a stable, unified Iraq, the surge is a good policy three years too late.

For that surge to succeed now, it would have to accomplish the following tasks: compel the Maliki government to deliver public services in a nonsectarian way; convert the Shiite theocrats who now dominate the Iraqi government into ecumenical multiculturalists; persuade the rabid Sunni leaders to accept a dependent role in the new Iraq; induce the traumatized Iraqi people to hang together as the blood flows; and sustain American political support for a policy that begins with a 17 percent approval rating.

The odds that the surge can accomplish these tasks are vanishingly small.

But another surge may be realistic. This surge would begin by giving up the dream of national reconciliation and acknowledging that Iraq is in the process of dividing itself.

Perhaps it’s time to merge the military Plan B — the surge — with a political Plan B — flexible decentralization. That would mean using adequate force levels to help those who are returning to sectarian homelands. It would mean erecting buffers between populations where possible and establishing order in areas that remain mixed.

We can’t turn back time. But if the disintegration of Iraqi society would be a political and humanitarian disaster, perhaps we should finally commit military resources, and create a political strategy, commensurate with the task of salvaging something.

©2007 The New York Times

 

[jodylee]

For instance, I could say that that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Now if I claim this as "fact," then I had better have some citations to back up that "fact." However, if I say "I believe the Sun revolves around the Earth," then I have stated an opinion, which does NOT require any supporting evidence. Everyone has opinions, and those opinions are valid for the individual. however, when you wish to assert something as "fact," be ready to demonstrate exactly why it is a fact.

for a start this kind of thinking disregards intelectual common sense. and is a robotic way to argue.
secondly, fact is rare, and non exsistant on the internet. esspecially with the subject we are discussing. the only way to prove out right for instance that the iraqi minister for interior is behind the iraqi death squads is a video of him giving orders to a person who is seen on video later carrying out those specific commands. this kind of evidence will never be found, does that mean it can never be discussed as a possability.
thirdly, the lack of fact never stoped the american and probably most of you guys beliving there were WMD in iraq. I saw the so callled evidence and non of it was concreate and was allways open to interpretation, so in your standards, usless.

 

[insein]

Thats something at least.

This is an op-ed. The columnist is entitled to his opinion on the subject. I think that he is wrong though. More and more we hear about Iraqi soldiers taking control of their land and capturing insurgents. ITs a slow process for sure but we were in Germany for 12 years cleaning up the "insurgency" after WWII officially ended and we still have a presence there today. To expect everything to be peaches and cream after 4 years and only about 2 where the Iraqis can have a legitimate army is alittle much.

We just have to keep ahead with the plan because it is working. There are always casualties in war but the plan was to eliminate Saddam and his guard. Establish a new Iraqis government chosen by the people. Then hand the defense of the country over to the Iraqi government. This process couldnt be accomplished in that short amount of time yet we have achieved the first 2 phases in 4 years. Give the Iraqis time and they will be able to achieve the 3rd.

 

[insein]

for a start this kind of thinking disregards intelectual common sense. and is a robotic way to argue.
secondly, fact is rare, and non exsistant on the internet. esspecially with the subject we are discussing. the only way to prove out right for instance that the iraqi minister for interior is behind the iraqi death squads is a video of him giving orders to a person who is seen on video later carrying out those specific commands. this kind of evidence will never be found, does that mean it can never be discussed as a possability.
thirdly, the lack of fact never stoped the american and probably most of you guys beliving there were WMD in iraq. I saw the so callled evidence and non of it was concreate and was allways open to interpretation, so in your standards, usless.

It can be discussed IF you present it as a conspiracy theory. Bring it to the table as "I believe that the IRaqi PRime minister is setting up death squads in Iraq." Don't bring it to the table that it is actually happening. If you can't prove that it is happening with even secondary evidence like accounts of bodies piling up or something, then you are lieing. If you say "i believe that" before a statement, then it is your opinion and everyone is entitled to whatever dumbass opinion they believe. Someone can think the world is flat. Doesn't make them right. But its their dumbass opinion. As long as they don't go preaching to people that the world is flat as fact, then they are fine in doing so.

 

[Darwins Friend]

Thats something at least.

This is an op-ed. The columnist is entitled to his opinion on the subject. I think that he is wrong though. More and more we hear about Iraqi soldiers taking control of their land and capturing insurgents. ITs a slow process for sure but we were in Germany for 12 years cleaning up the "insurgency" after WWII officially ended and we still have a presence there today. To expect everything to be peaches and cream after 4 years and only about 2 where the Iraqis can have a legitimate army is alittle much.

We just have to keep ahead with the plan because it is working. There are always casualties in war but the plan was to eliminate Saddam and his guard. Establish a new Iraqis government chosen by the people. Then hand the defense of the country over to the Iraqi government. This process couldnt be accomplished in that short amount of time yet we have achieved the first 2 phases in 4 years. Give the Iraqis time and they will be able to achieve the 3rd.

The military said 1,313 Iraqi civilians perished in sectarian murders in March, compared with 173 killed in suicide bombings. The victims, an average of 36 per day, included Sunni men found with holes drilled through their heads and Shi'ite men with the words ''traitor" written or carved across their bodies.

-------------

"The massive carnage in Iraq should serve as a permanent reminder to my fellow Christian conservatives that war is a moral-values issue," Gushee wrote. "Indeed, war is a sanctity-of-life issue. Every day's body count in Iraq should drive this point home with greater and greater urgency. Every body that turns up with holes drilled in it, every head torn apart by gunshots, every soldier whose helicopter crashes and ends his life, every veteran who will spend the rest of his or her life with three or two or one or no limbs, is a human being of immeasurable worth, made in the image of God."

--------------

* The words might have more weight with a bit less nastiness *

 

[theHawk]

for a start this kind of thinking disregards intelectual common sense. and is a robotic way to argue.
secondly, fact is rare, and non exsistant on the internet. esspecially with the subject we are discussing. the only way to prove out right for instance that the iraqi minister for interior is behind the iraqi death squads is a video of him giving orders to a person who is seen on video later carrying out those specific commands. this kind of evidence will never be found, does that mean it can never be discussed as a possability.
thirdly, the lack of fact never stoped the american and probably most of you guys beliving there were WMD in iraq. I saw the so callled evidence and non of it was concreate and was allways open to interpretation, so in your standards, usless.

I see what you are saying about such evidence pertaining to him behind the death squads. But maybe you could at least explain to us why you seem to believe these things?

As for the WMD evidence, there was plenty of evidence that Saddam had WMD. Most other foreign intelligence supported that belief as well, this is common knowledge the anti-war crowd loves to forget. Personally, I believe the weapons were moved out of Iraq through Syria and into Bekka Valley of Lebanon. The fact that when the Syrians were thrown out of Lebanon they pulled out of most of the country except the Bekka Valley confirms my suspicions.

 

[Darwins Friend]

Yep: $700,000,000.00 American dollars, in hundred dollar bills were left in Baghdad banks, Saddam was found in a spider hole, but massive amounts of WMD’s were able to make there way across Iraq’s borders - right under our Air Force’s nose.