Iranian aid ship sales to Gaza today

[georgephillip]

Since Gaza is not an independent state at war with Israel but rather is occupied by Israel, Israel's blockade is illegal and her attack on the Mavi Marmara an illegal act of war.

Next time both sides will have paint balls.

 

[martybegan]

Since Gaza is not an independent state at war with Israel but rather is occupied by Israel, Israel's blockade is illegal and her attack on the Mavi Marmara an illegal act of war.

Next time both sides will have paint balls.

Just saying something doesn't make it true. Most nation states do recognize the blockade de facto even if they do not de jure. Comparison could be made to our american civil war where the north blockaded the south, and while England and France protested, they did not try to break the blockade.

There does not need to be a true state of war for a blockade to be legal. Declared belligerency is enough to suffice. Israel has declared Hamas a hostile organization, and since hamas is the goverment of Gaza the blockade is legitamate.

 

[georgephillip]

Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention passed in 1949 changes the legal situation in Gaza today from that experienced by the Confederacy.

Collective punishment is currently illegal. If it's true that Israeli officials have repeatedly stated that the objective of their blockade is to weaken the Gaza economy and undermine support for Hamas, that is a political, not a military objective.

It is impermissible under today's international law to target civilians to achieve nonmilitary goals.

 

[al Haq]

Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention passed in 1949 changes the legal situation in Gaza today from that experienced by the Confederacy.

Collective punishment is currently illegal. If it's true that Israeli officials have repeatedly stated that the objective of their blockade is to weaken the Gaza economy and undermine support for Hamas, that is a political, not a military objective.

It is impermissible under today's international law to target civilians to achieve nonmilitary goals.

Indeed, the blockade on Gaza is a calculated attempt to achieve a political goal - to drive the Palestinians' elected representatives from power by reducing the population to such dire poverty that they will rise up and overthrow Hamas, and release a captured Israeli soldier. It hasn't worked.

And if Israel was truly concerned only with keeping weapons from going to Hamas, it would never have banned things like coriander, pasta, chocolate and children's toys, nor prevented critically ill patients from traveling out of Gaza for medical treatment.

Israel was willing to allow just enough food into Gaza to keep Palestinians from wholesale starvation, but make normal life impossible - even banning materials to rebuild vital infrastructure such as sewage treatment facilities.

"It's like an appointment with a dietitian. The Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won't die."

- Dov Weissglass, then advisor to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, 2006

Weissglass is the same guy who said that Israel's purpose in the so-called Gaza disengagement "is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that's necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

He's also (in)famous for saying "We educated the world to understand that there is no one to talk to. And we received a no-one-to-talk-to certificate...The certificate will be revoked only when this-and-this happens - when Palestine becomes Finland."

And I have to say again -

Many Western reports repeat the propaganda that Hamas "seized power" in Gaza. But in fact, Hamas candidates were voted in by the Palestinian people the 2006 elections - and they were encouraged to participate in that election by none other than then-U.S. President George W. Bush, part of his rhetoric about "bringing democracy" to the Middle East.

Hamas indeed swept to power - as every expert on the region had predicted. Fatah's reputation was in tatters after rampant corruption and years of being unable to improve conditions for the Palestinian people. So Hamas won a majority of the seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council - in an internationally observed election that was described as the most free, open and democratic in the Arab world. And it wasn't just Gazans casting their ballots - Hamas won a majority from West Bank voters as well.

Within days, both the U.S. and Israel moved to deny and disrupt the results of that free and democratic election. Israel sent its soldiers to kidnap and imprison more than 60 elected Hamas legislators from the West Bank, while Washington funded and armed a Fatah strongman named Mohammed Dahlan to try to pull off a coup against the elected government in the region of their strongest support, Gaza. That of course completely failed.

The blockade is indeed Israel's current tactic to force "regime change" - by depriving 1.5 million people of normal everyday goods.

 

[martybegan]

Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention passed in 1949 changes the legal situation in Gaza today from that experienced by the Confederacy.

Collective punishment is currently illegal. If it's true that Israeli officials have repeatedly stated that the objective of their blockade is to weaken the Gaza economy and undermine support for Hamas, that is a political, not a military objective.

It is impermissible under today's international law to target civilians to achieve nonmilitary goals.

War is the continuation of politics by other means. And if the gazans want the blockade lifted they should vote or kick hamas out of power.

And when the military forces of a given side do not follow the rules of war, hide in civllians, and are technically the goverment of said people, well too bad. Gazans would be better off in the long run without hamas around.

People seem to feel ok with long term suffering and recoil at suffering in the now, even if the now suffering will result in a better future for the people in question. Gaza's suffering is on Hamas, for not stopping rocket fire, for being determined to not have any peace with Isreal, and for putting thier jihad above the needs of the people they govern.

 

[martybegan]

Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention passed in 1949 changes the legal situation in Gaza today from that experienced by the Confederacy.

Collective punishment is currently illegal. If it's true that Israeli officials have repeatedly stated that the objective of their blockade is to weaken the Gaza economy and undermine support for Hamas, that is a political, not a military objective.

It is impermissible under today's international law to target civilians to achieve nonmilitary goals.

Indeed, the blockade on Gaza is a calculated attempt to achieve a political goal - to drive the Palestinians' elected representatives from power by reducing the population to such dire poverty that they will rise up and overthrow Hamas, and release a captured Israeli soldier. It hasn't worked.

And if Israel was truly concerned only with keeping weapons from going to Hamas, it would never have banned things like coriander, pasta, chocolate and children's toys, nor prevented critically ill patients from traveling out of Gaza for medical treatment.

Israel was willing to allow just enough food into Gaza to keep Palestinians from wholesale starvation, but make normal life impossible - even banning materials to rebuild vital infrastructure such as sewage treatment facilities.

"It's like an appointment with a dietitian. The Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won't die."

- Dov Weissglass, then advisor to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, 2006

Weissglass is the same guy who said that Israel's purpose in the so-called Gaza disengagement "is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that's necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

He's also (in)famous for saying "We educated the world to understand that there is no one to talk to. And we received a no-one-to-talk-to certificate...The certificate will be revoked only when this-and-this happens - when Palestine becomes Finland."

And I have to say again -

Many Western reports repeat the propaganda that Hamas "seized power" in Gaza. But in fact, Hamas candidates were voted in by the Palestinian people the 2006 elections - and they were encouraged to participate in that election by none other than then-U.S. President George W. Bush, part of his rhetoric about "bringing democracy" to the Middle East.

Hamas indeed swept to power - as every expert on the region had predicted. Fatah's reputation was in tatters after rampant corruption and years of being unable to improve conditions for the Palestinian people. So Hamas won a majority of the seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council - in an internationally observed election that was described as the most free, open and democratic in the Arab world. And it wasn't just Gazans casting their ballots - Hamas won a majority from West Bank voters as well.

Within days, both the U.S. and Israel moved to deny and disrupt the results of that free and democratic election. Israel sent its soldiers to kidnap and imprison more than 60 elected Hamas legislators from the West Bank, while Washington funded and armed a Fatah strongman named Mohammed Dahlan to try to pull off a coup against the elected government in the region of their strongest support, Gaza. That of course completely failed.

The blockade is indeed Israel's current tactic to force "regime change" - by depriving 1.5 million people of normal everyday goods.

When you vote in a goverment thats more concerned with regaining what it beleives to be its territory than ruling the territory it already has, then you deserve whatever you get. Life isnt fair.

If Gaza really want internation recognition the path is simple. Stop fighting, build a society in the land you have. I'm sure plenty of organizations would fall over themselves to rebuild gaza. By building a country in what they have and renouncing violence they would force Israel to allow them trade, recognition, and control of thier territory. Hell, if they tried to undermine that most of the people who support them here would think twice.

But they continue a fruitless and unwinnable war. Israel isnt going anywhere short of a bracket of Iranian nukes hitting them. The sooner the palestinians realize this the better.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention passed in 1949 changes the legal situation in Gaza today from that experienced by the Confederacy.

Collective punishment is currently illegal. If it's true that Israeli officials have repeatedly stated that the objective of their blockade is to weaken the Gaza economy and undermine support for Hamas, that is a political, not a military objective.

It is impermissible under today's international law to target civilians to achieve nonmilitary goals.

War is the continuation of politics by other means. And if the gazans want the blockade lifted they should vote or kick hamas out of power.

And when the military forces of a given side do not follow the rules of war, hide in civllians, and are technically the goverment of said people, well too bad. Gazans would be better off in the long run without hamas around.

People seem to feel ok with long term suffering and recoil at suffering in the now, even if the now suffering will result in a better future for the people in question. Gaza's suffering is on Hamas, for not stopping rocket fire, for being determined to not have any peace with Isreal, and for putting thier jihad above the needs of the people they govern.

Understandably, Israel does not like who the Palestinians elected, but look at the assholes the Israelis elected.

 

[al Haq]

When you vote in a goverment thats more concerned with regaining what it beleives to be its territory than ruling the territory it already has, then you deserve whatever you get. Life isnt fair.

If Gaza really want internation recognition the path is simple. Stop fighting, build a society in the land you have. I'm sure plenty of organizations would fall over themselves to rebuild gaza. By building a country in what they have and renouncing violence they would force Israel to allow them trade, recognition, and control of thier territory. Hell, if they tried to undermine that most of the people who support them here would think twice.

But they continue a fruitless and unwinnable war. Israel isnt going anywhere short of a bracket of Iranian nukes hitting them. The sooner the palestinians realize this the better.

The Israeli government is in violation of international law and the Geneva Convention on a number of accounts.

So by your own logic, it would thus be appropriate for Israel to be denied international recognition; militarily bombarded and blockaded with little regard for its civilian casualties; significant sectors of its industry, educational and health facilities destroyed; refused the means to rebuild public works infrastructure; and its population reduced to beggars, denied freedom of movement and utterly dependent on international food aid which would be subject to arbitrary rules imposed by a hostile occupation force.

Nowhere in the civilized world do you find anything like the Zio idea of justice...

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention passed in 1949 changes the legal situation in Gaza today from that experienced by the Confederacy.

Collective punishment is currently illegal. If it's true that Israeli officials have repeatedly stated that the objective of their blockade is to weaken the Gaza economy and undermine support for Hamas, that is a political, not a military objective.

It is impermissible under today's international law to target civilians to achieve nonmilitary goals.

Indeed, the blockade on Gaza is a calculated attempt to achieve a political goal - to drive the Palestinians' elected representatives from power by reducing the population to such dire poverty that they will rise up and overthrow Hamas, and release a captured Israeli soldier. It hasn't worked.

And if Israel was truly concerned only with keeping weapons from going to Hamas, it would never have banned things like coriander, pasta, chocolate and children's toys, nor prevented critically ill patients from traveling out of Gaza for medical treatment.

Israel was willing to allow just enough food into Gaza to keep Palestinians from wholesale starvation, but make normal life impossible - even banning materials to rebuild vital infrastructure such as sewage treatment facilities.

"It's like an appointment with a dietitian. The Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won't die."

- Dov Weissglass, then advisor to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, 2006

Weissglass is the same guy who said that Israel's purpose in the so-called Gaza disengagement "is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that's necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

He's also (in)famous for saying "We educated the world to understand that there is no one to talk to. And we received a no-one-to-talk-to certificate...The certificate will be revoked only when this-and-this happens - when Palestine becomes Finland."

And I have to say again -

Many Western reports repeat the propaganda that Hamas "seized power" in Gaza. But in fact, Hamas candidates were voted in by the Palestinian people the 2006 elections - and they were encouraged to participate in that election by none other than then-U.S. President George W. Bush, part of his rhetoric about "bringing democracy" to the Middle East.

Hamas indeed swept to power - as every expert on the region had predicted. Fatah's reputation was in tatters after rampant corruption and years of being unable to improve conditions for the Palestinian people. So Hamas won a majority of the seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council - in an internationally observed election that was described as the most free, open and democratic in the Arab world. And it wasn't just Gazans casting their ballots - Hamas won a majority from West Bank voters as well.

Within days, both the U.S. and Israel moved to deny and disrupt the results of that free and democratic election. Israel sent its soldiers to kidnap and imprison more than 60 elected Hamas legislators from the West Bank, while Washington funded and armed a Fatah strongman named Mohammed Dahlan to try to pull off a coup against the elected government in the region of their strongest support, Gaza. That of course completely failed.

The blockade is indeed Israel's current tactic to force "regime change" - by depriving 1.5 million people of normal everyday goods.

I love that you mention the election, then deny civil war that came about when Hamas systematically removed everyone else from any part of the government, despite the fact that this was illegal. I have a couple of questions regarding Hamas being the elected government of Gaza.

When is the next election scheduled in Gaza?
What do you call a government that systematically eliminates anyone who is not part of the ruling party?
What do we usually call governments that refuse to have elections?

 

[al Haq]

I love that you mention the election, then deny civil war that came about when Hamas systematically removed everyone else from any part of the government, despite the fact that this was illegal. I have a couple of questions regarding Hamas being the elected government of Gaza.

What civil war? There was a foreign-backed attempt at a coup to topple the elected government, which failed.

Since then, the U.S. and Israel have used a combination of bribes and threats to manipulate hand-picked members of the Fatah party to declare themselves the de-facto government.

When is the next election scheduled in Gaza?

The next election was scheduled for July 17th. But this past Thursday, the U.S. and Israel-backed Fatah, which controls the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, cancelled it. It is "postponed indefinitely," according to Fatah.

The move has come under extreme criticism from various sectors of Palestinian society, including the Civilian Election Monitoring Committee who calls it "illegal and non-democratic."

What do you call a government that systematically eliminates anyone who is not part of the ruling party?
What do we usually call governments that refuse to have elections?

What do you call a foreign power who tries to deny and disrupt the results of a free and democratic election, funds and arms a coup against that elected government, and backs the non-elected regime as they cancel scheduled elections and deny the citizens their right to democracy?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention passed in 1949 changes the legal situation in Gaza today from that experienced by the Confederacy.

Collective punishment is currently illegal. If it's true that Israeli officials have repeatedly stated that the objective of their blockade is to weaken the Gaza economy and undermine support for Hamas, that is a political, not a military objective.

It is impermissible under today's international law to target civilians to achieve nonmilitary goals.

Indeed, the blockade on Gaza is a calculated attempt to achieve a political goal - to drive the Palestinians' elected representatives from power by reducing the population to such dire poverty that they will rise up and overthrow Hamas, and release a captured Israeli soldier. It hasn't worked.

And if Israel was truly concerned only with keeping weapons from going to Hamas, it would never have banned things like coriander, pasta, chocolate and children's toys, nor prevented critically ill patients from traveling out of Gaza for medical treatment.

Israel was willing to allow just enough food into Gaza to keep Palestinians from wholesale starvation, but make normal life impossible - even banning materials to rebuild vital infrastructure such as sewage treatment facilities.

"It's like an appointment with a dietitian. The Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won't die."

- Dov Weissglass, then advisor to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, 2006

Weissglass is the same guy who said that Israel's purpose in the so-called Gaza disengagement "is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that's necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

He's also (in)famous for saying "We educated the world to understand that there is no one to talk to. And we received a no-one-to-talk-to certificate...The certificate will be revoked only when this-and-this happens - when Palestine becomes Finland."

And I have to say again -

Many Western reports repeat the propaganda that Hamas "seized power" in Gaza. But in fact, Hamas candidates were voted in by the Palestinian people the 2006 elections - and they were encouraged to participate in that election by none other than then-U.S. President George W. Bush, part of his rhetoric about "bringing democracy" to the Middle East.

Hamas indeed swept to power - as every expert on the region had predicted. Fatah's reputation was in tatters after rampant corruption and years of being unable to improve conditions for the Palestinian people. So Hamas won a majority of the seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council - in an internationally observed election that was described as the most free, open and democratic in the Arab world. And it wasn't just Gazans casting their ballots - Hamas won a majority from West Bank voters as well.

Within days, both the U.S. and Israel moved to deny and disrupt the results of that free and democratic election. Israel sent its soldiers to kidnap and imprison more than 60 elected Hamas legislators from the West Bank, while Washington funded and armed a Fatah strongman named Mohammed Dahlan to try to pull off a coup against the elected government in the region of their strongest support, Gaza. That of course completely failed.

The blockade is indeed Israel's current tactic to force "regime change" - by depriving 1.5 million people of normal everyday goods.

I love that you mention the election, then deny civil war that came about when Hamas systematically removed everyone else from any part of the government, despite the fact that this was illegal.

Hamas did not do that. That is just lies out of Israel. In the supposed Hamas government the chief of police was Fatah as were about 3,000 of the officers. Four members of fatah in the PLC still hold their seats as do smaller parties and independents. No government official was removed or replaced after the coup that wasn't.

I have a couple of questions regarding Hamas being the elected government of Gaza.

It wasn't. it was elected the government of Palestine.

When is the next election scheduled in Gaza?

Gaza does not have elections. Palestine has elections.

What do you call a government that systematically eliminates anyone who is not part of the ruling party?

I would call that a dictatorship, but Hamas did not do that.

What do we usually call governments that refuse to have elections?

As it stands right now it is the US that is scuttling the elections in Palestine.

You need to dump your sources of information, You have been misled.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

This ship is not an Iranian government ship. It is from civilian charities.

This is a diplomatic/Political move so of course the Isanian government is behind this.
Also I find it amusing and hypocritical that Iran think she's in a situation where she can preach to others about democracy and human rights.
We saw what she did to her own citizens when they dare to demonstrate and express a different opinion.

I don't agree with much of the Iranian government, but there is an increasingly active populace that will eventually bring that government down. It will probably be an evolution rather than a revolution.

Any government that hooks itself to a religion sucks.

Thank you, Tinmore, for finally saying one critical word about the Muslim and/or Arab people. Shogun has never done so. Only people who can say good and bad things about both sides, can mediate this conflict.

 

[P F Tinmore]

This is a diplomatic/Political move so of course the Isanian government is behind this.
Also I find it amusing and hypocritical that Iran think she's in a situation where she can preach to others about democracy and human rights.
We saw what she did to her own citizens when they dare to demonstrate and express a different opinion.

I don't agree with much of the Iranian government, but there is an increasingly active populace that will eventually bring that government down. It will probably be an evolution rather than a revolution.

Any government that hooks itself to a religion sucks.

Thank you, Tinmore, for finally saying one critical word about the Muslim and/or Arab people. Shogun has never done so. Only people who can say good and bad things about both sides, can mediate this conflict.

That is what is good about Palestine. Their constitution guarantees equal rights without regard to race, religion, sex, etc.. There are no dress codes. All people can form political parties, run in elections, and hold office. People can live anywhere without restrictions. There is a "bill of rights" similar to the one in the US.

 

[martybegan]

When you vote in a goverment thats more concerned with regaining what it beleives to be its territory than ruling the territory it already has, then you deserve whatever you get. Life isnt fair.

If Gaza really want internation recognition the path is simple. Stop fighting, build a society in the land you have. I'm sure plenty of organizations would fall over themselves to rebuild gaza. By building a country in what they have and renouncing violence they would force Israel to allow them trade, recognition, and control of thier territory. Hell, if they tried to undermine that most of the people who support them here would think twice.

But they continue a fruitless and unwinnable war. Israel isnt going anywhere short of a bracket of Iranian nukes hitting them. The sooner the palestinians realize this the better.

The Israeli government is in violation of international law and the Geneva Convention on a number of accounts.

So by your own logic, it would thus be appropriate for Israel to be denied international recognition; militarily bombarded and blockaded with little regard for its civilian casualties; significant sectors of its industry, educational and health facilities destroyed; refused the means to rebuild public works infrastructure; and its population reduced to beggars, denied freedom of movement and utterly dependent on international food aid which would be subject to arbitrary rules imposed by a hostile occupation force.

Nowhere in the civilized world do you find anything like the Zio idea of justice...

It is your opinion that Israel is in violation of your intepretations of those things. Show me actual convictions that arent politically motivated and then we can talk.

And Israel is already being bombarded militarily. Its called rockets. It isnt Israel's fault that Hamas is not as effective as you want them to be. (Well actually it is, the whole reason for the blockade) Your screed doesnt answer my question. Why doesnt Hamas just admit it lost and try to rebuild for its people's sake?

Giving up can result in a better life. Look at the WWII "losers" and see what shape they are in now.

 

[P F Tinmore]

When you vote in a goverment thats more concerned with regaining what it beleives to be its territory than ruling the territory it already has, then you deserve whatever you get. Life isnt fair.

If Gaza really want internation recognition the path is simple. Stop fighting, build a society in the land you have. I'm sure plenty of organizations would fall over themselves to rebuild gaza. By building a country in what they have and renouncing violence they would force Israel to allow them trade, recognition, and control of thier territory. Hell, if they tried to undermine that most of the people who support them here would think twice.

But they continue a fruitless and unwinnable war. Israel isnt going anywhere short of a bracket of Iranian nukes hitting them. The sooner the palestinians realize this the better.

The Israeli government is in violation of international law and the Geneva Convention on a number of accounts.

So by your own logic, it would thus be appropriate for Israel to be denied international recognition; militarily bombarded and blockaded with little regard for its civilian casualties; significant sectors of its industry, educational and health facilities destroyed; refused the means to rebuild public works infrastructure; and its population reduced to beggars, denied freedom of movement and utterly dependent on international food aid which would be subject to arbitrary rules imposed by a hostile occupation force.

Nowhere in the civilized world do you find anything like the Zio idea of justice...

It is your opinion that Israel is in violation of your intepretations of those things. Show me actual convictions that arent politically motivated and then we can talk.

And Israel is already being bombarded militarily. Its called rockets. It isnt Israel's fault that Hamas is not as effective as you want them to be. (Well actually it is, the whole reason for the blockade) Your screed doesnt answer my question. Why doesnt Hamas just admit it lost and try to rebuild for its people's sake?

Giving up can result in a better life. Look at the WWII "losers" and see what shape they are in now.

So called terrorist attacks on Israel are constantly reported. Surely the rockets fired on Sderot were the main excuse for the invasion of Gaza. However, it is never reported that Sderot was built on top of the Palestinian village of Najd. Israel attacked Najd before the war of 1948 driving the indigenous population out of their homes and off their land. Most of those driven out became refugees in Gaza. This was an act of aggression against this farm community.

International law forbids the acquisition of land in acts of aggression. With this in mind, Israel cannot legally claim possession of this land. Further evidence of this is the fact that there is no border between Gaza and Sderot. Israel has built a cage around Gaza, but there is no border there. Also, with this in mind, Hamas and other Palestinian resistance groups have not attacked anyone outside of Palestine. The Palestinians have every legal right to resist this occupation of their land.

 

[al Haq]

It is your opinion that Israel is in violation of your intepretations of those things. Show me actual convictions that arent politically motivated and then we can talk.

It's not "my" opinion; it's the opinion of the U.N. and the International Court of Justice, who are the authorities on such matters.

In fact, what is politically motivated is the United States' shielding of Israel from the international consensus that Israel must uphold its obligations as a U.N. Member State, which require it to abide by the U.N. Charter and Laws of War, resolutions and articles as well as the laws of the Geneva Convention.

And Israel is already being bombarded militarily. Its called rockets.

A total of 15 Israelis were killed by Gaza rockets between 2000 and the beginning of Israel's Cast Lead assault in December 2008. During the same period, nearly 4500 Palestinians in Gaza were killed by Israeli forces.

So it is actually Palestinians who have been "bombarded," in far greater numbers than Israelis.

Israeli Defense Minister Director-General Yaakov Toran admitted that the rockets were not a major security issue, saying "We need to remember that Qassams are more a psychological than physical threat. Statistically they cause the fewest losses."

Hamas and Israel agreed to a ceasefire in mid-2008 which significantly reduced rocket fire.

Hamas also stated its willingness to cooperate with a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict with a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders (exactly the same internationally-supported solution that the U.N. has reaffirmed for the past 43 years.)

After agreeing to the cease fire, Israel was the first to break it. The U.N. recorded 7 IDF violations between June 20-26, along with 3 retaliatory Palestinian violations from groups not affiliated with Hamas from June 23-26.

Still, the ceasefire held, as shown in the charts, until November 2008, when Israel launched a major and deadly incursion into Gaza. Hamas retaliated. Israel then claimed that Hamas had "broken the cease fire" and within a month had implemented the Cast Lead assault of December 2008-January 2009 (an operation for which it had been laying plans for nearly a year.)

About 1400 Palestinians were killed during Cast Lead, of which more than 3/4 were civilians, and nearly one fourth of them children. 13 Israelis were killed, including 10 soldiers and 3 civilians.

It isnt Israel's fault that Hamas is not as effective as you want them to be.

Please quote where I have ever stated any such thing. You have an overactive imagination.

Your screed doesnt answer my question. Why doesnt Hamas just admit it lost and try to rebuild for its people's sake?

Giving up can result in a better life. Look at the WWII "losers" and see what shape they are in now.

Despite the appalling number of Palestinian civilians it willfully slaughtered and despite the staggering devastation and suffering that it intentionally inflicted on a captive and mostly refugee population, it seems that Israel is the one that has lost the most. Israel has squandered what little remaining credibility it had with the international community, is being further isolated and subject to Boycott/Divestment/Sanctions, and will soon be forced to relinquish its illegal blockade of Gaza without achieving a single one of its goals.

 

[CMike]

Don't complain when the terrorists shoot missiles into it's cities that Israel reacts.

 

[martybegan]

The Israeli government is in violation of international law and the Geneva Convention on a number of accounts.

So by your own logic, it would thus be appropriate for Israel to be denied international recognition; militarily bombarded and blockaded with little regard for its civilian casualties; significant sectors of its industry, educational and health facilities destroyed; refused the means to rebuild public works infrastructure; and its population reduced to beggars, denied freedom of movement and utterly dependent on international food aid which would be subject to arbitrary rules imposed by a hostile occupation force.

Nowhere in the civilized world do you find anything like the Zio idea of justice...

It is your opinion that Israel is in violation of your intepretations of those things. Show me actual convictions that arent politically motivated and then we can talk.

And Israel is already being bombarded militarily. Its called rockets. It isnt Israel's fault that Hamas is not as effective as you want them to be. (Well actually it is, the whole reason for the blockade) Your screed doesnt answer my question. Why doesnt Hamas just admit it lost and try to rebuild for its people's sake?

Giving up can result in a better life. Look at the WWII "losers" and see what shape they are in now.

So called terrorist attacks on Israel are constantly reported. Surely the rockets fired on Sderot were the main excuse for the invasion of Gaza. However, it is never reported that Sderot was built on top of the Palestinian village of Najd. Israel attacked Najd before the war of 1948 driving the indigenous population out of their homes and off their land. Most of those driven out became refugees in Gaza. This was an act of aggression against this farm community.

International law forbids the acquisition of land in acts of aggression. With this in mind, Israel cannot legally claim possession of this land. Further evidence of this is the fact that there is no border between Gaza and Sderot. Israel has built a cage around Gaza, but there is no border there. Also, with this in mind, Hamas and other Palestinian resistance groups have not attacked anyone outside of Palestine. The Palestinians have every legal right to resist this occupation of their land.

We might as well end the discussion if you keep going back to 1948. Whats done is done. The Israelis aren't leaving, and they would be suicdial to accept a palestinian majority one state solution. The Arabs attacked in 1948, lost and have been whining ever since. You forget about all those other armies that bullied their way in. And your last point about no attacks outside of "Palestine is retarted" What about Munich?????

If gazans truly want peace they can stop fighting and build on what land they have. Or they can keep fighting an unwinnable war.

 

[martybegan]

It is your opinion that Israel is in violation of your intepretations of those things. Show me actual convictions that arent politically motivated and then we can talk.

It's not "my" opinion; it's the opinion of the U.N. and the International Court of Justice, who are the authorities on such matters.

In fact, what is politically motivated is the United States' shielding of Israel from the international consensus that Israel must uphold its obligations as a U.N. Member State, which require it to abide by the U.N. Charter and Laws of War, resolutions and articles as well as the laws of the Geneva Convention.

And Israel is already being bombarded militarily. Its called rockets.

A total of 15 Israelis were killed by Gaza rockets between 2000 and the beginning of Israel's Cast Lead assault in December 2008. During the same period, nearly 4500 Palestinians in Gaza were killed by Israeli forces.

So it is actually Palestinians who have been "bombarded," in far greater numbers than Israelis.

Israeli Defense Minister Director-General Yaakov Toran admitted that the rockets were not a major security issue, saying "We need to remember that Qassams are more a psychological than physical threat. Statistically they cause the fewest losses."

Hamas and Israel agreed to a ceasefire in mid-2008 which significantly reduced rocket fire.

Hamas also stated its willingness to cooperate with a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict with a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders (exactly the same internationally-supported solution that the U.N. has reaffirmed for the past 43 years.)

After agreeing to the cease fire, Israel was the first to break it. The U.N. recorded 7 IDF violations between June 20-26, along with 3 retaliatory Palestinian violations from groups not affiliated with Hamas from June 23-26.

Still, the ceasefire held, as shown in the charts, until November 2008, when Israel launched a major and deadly incursion into Gaza. Hamas retaliated. Israel then claimed that Hamas had "broken the cease fire" and within a month had implemented the Cast Lead assault of December 2008-January 2009 (an operation for which it had been laying plans for nearly a year.)

About 1400 Palestinians were killed during Cast Lead, of which more than 3/4 were civilians, and nearly one fourth of them children. 13 Israelis were killed, including 10 soldiers and 3 civilians.

It isnt Israel's fault that Hamas is not as effective as you want them to be.

Please quote where I have ever stated any such thing. You have an overactive imagination.

Your screed doesnt answer my question. Why doesnt Hamas just admit it lost and try to rebuild for its people's sake?

Giving up can result in a better life. Look at the WWII "losers" and see what shape they are in now.

Despite the appalling number of Palestinian civilians it willfully slaughtered and despite the staggering devastation and suffering that it intentionally inflicted on a captive and mostly refugee population, it seems that Israel is the one that has lost the most. Israel has squandered what little remaining credibility it had with the international community, is being further isolated and subject to Boycott/Divestment/Sanctions, and will soon be forced to relinquish its illegal blockade of Gaza without achieving a single one of its goals.

Out of the number of palestinians killed how many were actually civillians and how many were militants? Nothing better than a government whos fighters use thier own population as shields and then whine when they get hit by return fire.

The only reason Israeli casualties arent higher isnt due to lack of trying, but lack of technology and expertise. Give Hamas real weapons and the casualty rates would be higher.

If Israel would follow the sames rules Hamas does then every rocket or mortar would be replied to with a 155 mm shell fired randomly into the strip. They dont do that.

Just admit you want every jew driven into the sea. It will make you more honest.

 

[georgephillip]

"A framework for settling the Arab-Israeli conflict has existed since 1976, when the regional Arab States introduced a Security Council Resolution calling for a two state settlement on the international border, including all the security guarantees of UN Resolution 242, adopted after the June War in 1967.

"The essential principles are supported by virtually the entire world, including the Arab League, the Organization of Islamic States (including Iran) and relevant non-state actors, including Hamas.

"But the US and Israel have led the rejection of such a settlement for three decades, with one crucial and highly informative exception.

"In President Bill Clinton's last month in office, January 2001, he initiated Israeli-Palestinian negotiations in Taba, Egypt, that almost reached an agreement, participants announced, before Israel terminated the negotiations."

The Real Threat