Intelligent Design and Evolution?

[Taz]

Is intelligent design merely an abstact concept or is there an official, documented dogma that articulates precisely what a believer in I.D. actually believes? If it is merely an abstract concept, how can it really contradict the theory of evolution? Could not the evolutionary process be the foundation of such an intelligent design? The cynic in me views it as a largely failed politcal ploy, concocted by science-hating creationists, but I could be wrong. Any thoughts?

Intelligent design assumes that some THING, usually a God, arranged for the beginning of life and has had a hand in other steps along the way. The theory discounts that pure random chance lead to life and lead to man.

It's not random chance, never heard of aliens? Life is everywhere, not chance.

Actually, life isn't everywhere. In fact, life, is pretty freaking rare. If all the sand in the Gobi desert represented all the matter and energy in the universe, one grain of sand would represent all the life in the universe. That's how rare life is in the universe.

With that said, it does appear that we live in a universe where the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, beings that know and create will eventually arise.

And why shouldn't life arise then throughout the universe?

 

[ding]

Is intelligent design merely an abstact concept or is there an official, documented dogma that articulates precisely what a believer in I.D. actually believes? If it is merely an abstract concept, how can it really contradict the theory of evolution? Could not the evolutionary process be the foundation of such an intelligent design? The cynic in me views it as a largely failed politcal ploy, concocted by science-hating creationists, but I could be wrong. Any thoughts?

Intelligent design assumes that some THING, usually a God, arranged for the beginning of life and has had a hand in other steps along the way. The theory discounts that pure random chance lead to life and lead to man.

It's not random chance, never heard of aliens? Life is everywhere, not chance.

Actually, life isn't everywhere. In fact, life, is pretty freaking rare. If all the sand in the Gobi desert represented all the matter and energy in the universe, one grain of sand would represent all the life in the universe. That's how rare life is in the universe.

With that said, it does appear that we live in a universe where the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, beings that know and create will eventually arise.

And why shouldn't life arise then throughout the universe?

Only where the conditions are right and enough time has passed.

How does it feel to believe that the laws of nature pre-ordained intelligent life to exist?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

How does it feel to believe that the laws of nature pre-ordained intelligent life to exist?

That's not accurate. While the universe is deterministic, it is also chaotic.

 

[ding]

How does it feel to believe that the laws of nature pre-ordained intelligent life to exist?

That's not accurate. While the universe is deterministic, it is also chaotic.

Sure. Order from chaos.

Either human beings arose through the natural processes of nature or through a creative act of God. There's not really another option.

So, if intelligence arose through natural processes through the laws of nature, intelligence was pre-ordained by and through the laws of nature.

Intelligence is potential realized.

 

[ding]

And in fact, everything that has unfolded since the beginning of space and time was necessary for space and time to reach it's potential which is intelligence.

 

[hobelim]

Either human beings arose through the natural processes of nature or through a creative act of God. There's not really another option.

Sure there is.

dogs did not exist until human beings came along and altered existing wolf species through selective breeding and so forth...

Dogs are the result of both the natural processes of nature and the creative act of human beings.



In the same way human beings are the result of both natural processes and the creative act of a higher order of otherworldly intelligences..... if scripture is true.


According to the story God, along with whoever "us" is, created human beings in his image and likeness by breathing "the breath of life" into an existing creature taken from the "dust of the earth" and deliberately formed into a "living being", becoming more like a strange hairless alien creature set apart from the rest of the wild beasts of the field than anything natural to this planet...

 

[Boss]

Is intelligent design merely an abstact concept or is there an official, documented dogma that articulates precisely what a believer in I.D. actually believes? If it is merely an abstract concept, how can it really contradict the theory of evolution? Could not the evolutionary process be the foundation of such an intelligent design? The cynic in me views it as a largely failed politcal ploy, concocted by science-hating creationists, but I could be wrong. Any thoughts?

I think it's both. The official documented dogma is the religious, creationist, Christian or Abrahamic account found in the Bible. The abstract is something philosophers have pondered since before the time of Christ. Yes, the process of evolution could be the foundation for intelligent design, and most likely, it is. What is cynical beyond belief is Nihilism, which is why only 5% of the human race are Nihilists.

I have often said, perhaps the word "intelligent" is inadequate when referring to the force which created us and our universe. We use that word because we can relate to it and comprehend what it means. Is omniscience the same as intelligence? Maybe "intelligent" is simply the closest grunting noise our advanced primate brain can conjure? The designer could be something beyond intelligent, if you can imagine such.

The concept of a master designer is not crazy or stupid, in fact, the idea of NO master designer is far more ridiculous, given what we have before us. A universe precisely tuned for physics which make life possible. The countless attributes of physical nature which have to be aligned to perfection. Then, the sheer miracle of life itself in all its complexity and majesty. It's far too much for a reasonable mind to conclude it's all the result of random chance. This is precisely why human spirituality has always been a persistent behavioral attribute in mankind.

 

[Taz]

Is intelligent design merely an abstact concept or is there an official, documented dogma that articulates precisely what a believer in I.D. actually believes? If it is merely an abstract concept, how can it really contradict the theory of evolution? Could not the evolutionary process be the foundation of such an intelligent design? The cynic in me views it as a largely failed politcal ploy, concocted by science-hating creationists, but I could be wrong. Any thoughts?

Intelligent design assumes that some THING, usually a God, arranged for the beginning of life and has had a hand in other steps along the way. The theory discounts that pure random chance lead to life and lead to man.

It's not random chance, never heard of aliens? Life is everywhere, not chance.

Actually, life isn't everywhere. In fact, life, is pretty freaking rare. If all the sand in the Gobi desert represented all the matter and energy in the universe, one grain of sand would represent all the life in the universe. That's how rare life is in the universe.

With that said, it does appear that we live in a universe where the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, beings that know and create will eventually arise.

And why shouldn't life arise then throughout the universe?

Only where the conditions are right and enough time has passed.

How does it feel to believe that the laws of nature pre-ordained intelligent life to exist?

Yes, the laws of nature allow us to exist, so what?

Conditions are likely right all over the universe for life and enough time has passed for sure. Within a short time, say 20 years, we'll likely find life in our own solar system outside of earth.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Either human beings arose through the natural processes of nature or through a creative act of God. There's not really another option.

Sure there is.

dogs did not exist until human beings came along and altered existing wolf species through selective breeding and so forth...

Dogs are the result of both the natural processes of nature and the creative act of human beings.



In the same way human beings are the result of both natural processes and the creative act of a higher order of otherworldly intelligences..... if scripture is true.


According to the story God, along with whoever "us" is, created human beings in his image and likeness by breathing "the breath of life" into an existing creature taken from the "dust of the earth" and deliberately formed into a "living being", becoming more like a strange hairless alien creature set apart from the rest of the wild beasts of the field than anything natural to this planet...

So, it's accurate, if magic is true. Ha, good stuff. I could say the same about my ability to lift a skyscraper with my bare hands.

 

[hobelim]

Either human beings arose through the natural processes of nature or through a creative act of God. There's not really another option.

Sure there is.

dogs did not exist until human beings came along and altered existing wolf species through selective breeding and so forth...

Dogs are the result of both the natural processes of nature and the creative act of human beings.



In the same way human beings are the result of both natural processes and the creative act of a higher order of otherworldly intelligences..... if scripture is true.


According to the story God, along with whoever "us" is, created human beings in his image and likeness by breathing "the breath of life" into an existing creature taken from the "dust of the earth" and deliberately formed into a "living being", becoming more like a strange hairless alien creature set apart from the rest of the wild beasts of the field than anything natural to this planet...

So, it's accurate, if magic is true. Ha, good stuff. I could say the same about my ability to lift a skyscraper with my bare hands.

its not about magic anymore than human beings turning extinct wolf species into a variety of dogs was magic.

a miracle would be you pulling your head out of your ass.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Either human beings arose through the natural processes of nature or through a creative act of God. There's not really another option.

Sure there is.

dogs did not exist until human beings came along and altered existing wolf species through selective breeding and so forth...

Dogs are the result of both the natural processes of nature and the creative act of human beings.



In the same way human beings are the result of both natural processes and the creative act of a higher order of otherworldly intelligences..... if scripture is true.


According to the story God, along with whoever "us" is, created human beings in his image and likeness by breathing "the breath of life" into an existing creature taken from the "dust of the earth" and deliberately formed into a "living being", becoming more like a strange hairless alien creature set apart from the rest of the wild beasts of the field than anything natural to this planet...

So, it's accurate, if magic is true. Ha, good stuff. I could say the same about my ability to lift a skyscraper with my bare hands.

its not about magic anymore than human beings turning extinct wolf species into a variety of dogs was magic.

a miracle would be you pulling your head out of your ass.

"If scripture is true" = "if magic is true"

But I think maybe we have our wires crossed, and you were not responding to me in the first place.

 

[ding]

Intelligent design assumes that some THING, usually a God, arranged for the beginning of life and has had a hand in other steps along the way. The theory discounts that pure random chance lead to life and lead to man.

It's not random chance, never heard of aliens? Life is everywhere, not chance.

Actually, life isn't everywhere. In fact, life, is pretty freaking rare. If all the sand in the Gobi desert represented all the matter and energy in the universe, one grain of sand would represent all the life in the universe. That's how rare life is in the universe.

With that said, it does appear that we live in a universe where the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, beings that know and create will eventually arise.

And why shouldn't life arise then throughout the universe?

Only where the conditions are right and enough time has passed.

How does it feel to believe that the laws of nature pre-ordained intelligent life to exist?

Yes, the laws of nature allow us to exist, so what?

Conditions are likely right all over the universe for life and enough time has passed for sure. Within a short time, say 20 years, we'll likely find life in our own solar system outside of earth.

No. Not all over the universe. Just as stars have Goldilocks zones, galaxies have Goldilocks zones as well. So even if a planet was in the Goldilocks zone of a star, the star is not guaranteed of being in the Goldilocks zone of the galaxy.

But you ask so what? The so what is that the universe was created so that intelligence could exist.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The so what is that the universe was created so that intelligence could exist.

....which is a magical, untestable idea that is not required to explain anything, which yields no useful predictions, and which, itself, explains exactly nothing, as it merely replaces one mystery with another.

 

[Taz]

It's not random chance, never heard of aliens? Life is everywhere, not chance.

Actually, life isn't everywhere. In fact, life, is pretty freaking rare. If all the sand in the Gobi desert represented all the matter and energy in the universe, one grain of sand would represent all the life in the universe. That's how rare life is in the universe.

With that said, it does appear that we live in a universe where the laws of nature are such that given enough time and the right conditions, beings that know and create will eventually arise.

And why shouldn't life arise then throughout the universe?

Only where the conditions are right and enough time has passed.

How does it feel to believe that the laws of nature pre-ordained intelligent life to exist?

Yes, the laws of nature allow us to exist, so what?

Conditions are likely right all over the universe for life and enough time has passed for sure. Within a short time, say 20 years, we'll likely find life in our own solar system outside of earth.

No. Not all over the universe. Just as stars have Goldilocks zones, galaxies have Goldilocks zones as well. So even if a planet was in the Goldilocks zone of a star, the star is not guaranteed of being in the Goldilocks zone of the galaxy.

But you ask so what? The so what is that the universe was created so that intelligence could exist.

Not in every corner of the universe, but throughout, yes.

You don't know why the universe was created. End of.

 

[hobelim]

Either human beings arose through the natural processes of nature or through a creative act of God. There's not really another option.

Sure there is.

dogs did not exist until human beings came along and altered existing wolf species through selective breeding and so forth...

Dogs are the result of both the natural processes of nature and the creative act of human beings.



In the same way human beings are the result of both natural processes and the creative act of a higher order of otherworldly intelligences..... if scripture is true.


According to the story God, along with whoever "us" is, created human beings in his image and likeness by breathing "the breath of life" into an existing creature taken from the "dust of the earth" and deliberately formed into a "living being", becoming more like a strange hairless alien creature set apart from the rest of the wild beasts of the field than anything natural to this planet...

So, it's accurate, if magic is true. Ha, good stuff. I could say the same about my ability to lift a skyscraper with my bare hands.

its not about magic anymore than human beings turning extinct wolf species into a variety of dogs was magic.

a miracle would be you pulling your head out of your ass.

"If scripture is true" = "if magic is true"

But I think maybe we have our wires crossed, and you were not responding to me in the first place.

I think so too.

"If scripture is true" was addressed to a person who professes to believe that scripture is true. What else could the reports of extraterrestrial intelligences, living creatures that resembled human beings with the semblance of a hand, visiting people with teachings about how to avoid destruction be if not just that? What else could Jesus have meant by saying that his kingdom was not of this world if not just that?

We are so busy trying to communicate with alien civilizations by sending gibberish into space or finding them by looking for clouds of farts on distant planets without hearing a word of what they have been trying to communicate to us for a very, very, long time....if scripture is true.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What else could the reports of extraterrestrial intelligences, living creatures that resembled human beings with the semblance of a hand, visiting people with teachings about how to avoid destruction be if not just that?

Lies, hallucinations, or mistakes of the observers, of course.

 

[hobelim]

What else could the reports of extraterrestrial intelligences, living creatures that resembled human beings with the semblance of a hand, visiting people with teachings about how to avoid destruction be if not just that?

Lies, hallucinations, or mistakes of the observers, of course.

Again the question was to someone who professes to believe that scripture is true.

How could it be true in any other way? If the kingdom of God is not of this world then it is of another world..

You can call it a hallucination, I would call it an altered state of consciousness....what was perceived, not necessarily imaginary..

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What else could the reports of extraterrestrial intelligences, living creatures that resembled human beings with the semblance of a hand, visiting people with teachings about how to avoid destruction be if not just that?

Lies, hallucinations, or mistakes of the observers, of course.

I would go with an altered state of consciousness....what was perceived, not necessarily imaginary..

But that wouldnt take an altered state. I once perceived the disappearance of an elephant, during a David Copperfield TV special.

 

[hobelim]

What else could the reports of extraterrestrial intelligences, living creatures that resembled human beings with the semblance of a hand, visiting people with teachings about how to avoid destruction be if not just that?

Lies, hallucinations, or mistakes of the observers, of course.

I would go with an altered state of consciousness....what was perceived, not necessarily imaginary..

But that wouldnt take an altered state. I once perceived the disappearance of an elephant, during a David Copperfield TV special.

Sure. it could have been strange people who had achieved flight coming down from the sky from the other side of the planet instead of the other side of the galaxy.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What else could the reports of extraterrestrial intelligences, living creatures that resembled human beings with the semblance of a hand, visiting people with teachings about how to avoid destruction be if not just that?

Lies, hallucinations, or mistakes of the observers, of course.

I would go with an altered state of consciousness....what was perceived, not necessarily imaginary..

But that wouldnt take an altered state. I once perceived the disappearance of an elephant, during a David Copperfield TV special.

Sure. it could have been strange people who had achieved flight coming down from the sky from the other side of the planet instead of the other side of the galaxy.

Or neither...