Zone1 Intellectual Honesty

[Foxfyre]

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FBI Director and Deputy Director under which President?


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Kash Patel and Dan Bongino this morning when being interviewed by Maria Bartiromo on "Sunday Morning Futures."

 

[OhPleaseJustQuit]

Kash Patel and Dan Bongino this morning when being interviewed by Maria Bartiromo on "Sunday Morning Futures."

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Oh! Well, maybe that will help me look at it differently.

Thanks.

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[alang1216]

ZONE 1 everybody so keep it civil:

When it comes to sociopolitical issues, conspiracy theories abound on both sides of the aisle as do cherished beliefs based on partisan ideology.

While it certainly does not apply to all on the left, and does not exclude everybody on the right, the propensity of those in control of the message on the left--government, media, education, entertainment, etc.--to deliberately and intentionally spread disinformation and detract from honest evidence for political gain makes me presume they believe they are morally justified in doing that. So the topic probably won't be of much if any interest to them.

So this discussion will be directed mostly to those on the right who I believe are more likely to think they are justified in believing what they believe.

But if practical strategy makes intellectual honesty scarce on the left, how much can be found on the right?

One of the hardest things any of us will have to do is give up a cherished conviction or belief when we are shown that it cannot be supported with evidence. And it becomes far more difficult (and usually embarrassing) when we have emphatically and passionately argued for a point of view and find out we are wrong.

Who among us has never been involved in a passionate argument with somebody when there is that horrible feeling akin to panic when we suddenly realize we are wrong?

How we handle those situations reveals how intellectually honest we actually are.

So those of us on the right. Are we intellectually honest? Or do we doggedly hold onto our conviction or what we want to be truth regardless of what information calls it into question or discredits it entirely? Do we allow others a different opinion or disparage them because of it?

In this thread I hope we will be able to explore some of our convictions and beliefs that we might seriously consider rethinking. And it will be fair game for us to defend those convictions and beliefs that we are confident can be competently defended.

(Poll options are anonymous and can be changed if you change your mind. I hope at least some will be willing to admit/reveal their choices though.)

Some topics involving conspiracy theories some true, some not, some unproven that keep resurfacing over the years are listed below. This is NOT intended to be a complete list and certainly other topics can be discussed here:

--The Mexican tall ship hitting the bridge was intentional
--Epstein's death
--The FBI had agents helping instigate the riot on J6
--The Democrats helped instigate the riot on J6
--Trump instigated the riot on J6
--The media and Democrats covered up Biden's dementia
--Trump colluded with the Russians
--Many unexplained deaths involving the Clintons
--9/11 was an inside job
--Kennedy and the gunmen on the grassy knoll
--Trump only wants to benefit billionaires

Obviously we could go on and on but how much of any of this do we believe or not believe? And could anything change our mind?

People are people, regardless of their politics. I just exchanged posts with someone on the Right who claimed Democrats engage in ballot harvesting and I'm sure they still feel the 2020 election was stolen. After all these years and an almost total lack of evidence, they cling to this fantasy. One all too common on the Right. Even Trump doesn't have the intellectual honesty, or any other honesty, to admit the truth.

 

[Foxfyre]

People are people, regardless of their politics. I just exchanged posts with someone on the Right who claimed Democrats engage in ballot harvesting and I'm sure they still feel the 2020 election was stolen. After all these years and an almost total lack of evidence, they cling to this fantasy. One all too common on the Right. Even Trump doesn't have the intellectual honesty, or any other honesty, to admit the truth.

Since I personally witnessed ballot harvesting here where I live in 2020 along with some other unethical/illegal hanky panky, it is far easier for me to believe it happened. Such evidence almost has to be witnessed though as it is difficult to prove if it isn't.

So without personal involvement it is easy to believe the other side just made it all up when that is what you want to believe.

But when we don't know for sure what actually happened, the intellectually honest position is "I don't know."

 

[OhPleaseJustQuit]

Since I personally witnessed ballot harvesting here where I live in 2020 along with some other unethical/illegal hanky panky, it is far easier for me to believe it happened. Such evidence almost has to be witnessed though as it is difficult to prove if it isn't.

So without personal involvement it is easy to believe the other side just made it all up.

But when we don't know for sure what evidence exists, the intellectual honest position is "I don't know."

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The left get some gratitude out of choosing not to hear anything they don't want to hear.


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[Foxfyre]

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The left get some gratitude out of choosing not to hear anything they don't want to hear.


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Well in fairness to those on the left, there are many on the right who also do that. I get screamed at, accused, insulted, maligned, denigrated, even blocked all the time on X when I offer an opinion that isn't popular with the right no matter how much evidence I post to support that opinion.

Nevertheless, I want to believe that we have far more intellectually honest or at least factually informed people on the right than the left does. So, without anything to call that belief into question, that's what I believe.

 

[OhPleaseJustQuit]

Well infairness to those on the left, there are many on the right who also do that. I get screamed at, accused, insulted, maligned, denigrated, even blocked all the time on X when I offer an opinion that isn't popular with the right no matter how much evidence I post to support that opinion.

I want to believe that we have far more intellectually or at least factually informed people on the right than the left does. So, without anything to call that belief into question, that's what I believe.

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I've been looking to see how many radical rightists we have here, and I can't name them.


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[Foxfyre]

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I've been looking to see how many radical rightists we have here, and I can't name them.


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We don't seem to have as many as we did. There's still a few probably but they aren't as prevalent as they once were.

 

[Kilroy2]

That is true. You don't have to admit any mistakes and can still move on so long as you are breathing.

But can you say you are intellectually honest when you do that?

Intellectual honesty is an applied method of problem solving characterized by a nonpartisan and honest attitude,

So if people believe the earth is flat does that mean that they are not honest.

It does not mean that mistakes will not be made

People can belief something but it does not make them dishonest. It just means what is known is limited.

 

[Foxfyre]

Intellectual honesty is an applied method of problem solving characterized by a nonpartisan and honest attitude,

So if people believe the earth is flat does that mean they are not honest.

It does not mean that mistakes will not be made

Not at all. I know flat Earthers who are exceedingly honest and honorable people. They honestly believe the Earth is flat and that they can scientifically prove that.

It would be intellectually dishonest were they to realize they were wrong about that but refuse to admit it and keep promoting the flat Earth belief lest they anger or upset their peer group.

 

[Kilroy2]

Not at all. I know flat Earthers who are exceedingly honest and honorable people. They honestly believe the Earth is flat and that they can scientifically prove that.

It would be intellectually dishonest were they to realize they were wrong about that but refuse to admit it and keep promoting the flat Earth belief lest they anger or upset their peer group.

The earth is not flat. Defending that believe is denial. The earth would have to be considered in its entirety not just what can be observed.

 

[80zephyr]

How is that different than smart people thinking they are right even if they are wrong?

Which is also a possibility. Just less likely.

 

[alang1216]

Since I personally witnessed ballot harvesting here where I live in 2020 along with some other unethical/illegal hanky panky, it is far easier for me to believe it happened. Such evidence almost has to be witnessed though as it is difficult to prove if it isn't.

I'd be very interested in hearing any details you care to share. Including if you reported the incident(s).

 

[Foxfyre]

Which is also a possibility. Just less likely.

Maybe less likely. But yes a possibility. I have a shirttail cousin who has an IQ in the high 130s, a degree in anatomy and is a registered nurse. And she is a flat Earther.

You never know.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'd be very interested in hearing any details you care to share. Including if you reported the incident(s).

What good does it do to report something you cannot prove? I did report it to the GOP folks heading up the campaigns here in New Mexico but there wasn't much they could do.

And we are a very heavily blue state in which those in power are not the least bit interested in election fraud as it all goes their way.

What I witnessed was:
a) I was leading worship at a rehab facility which was a ministry I did periodically for a number of years. And while helping the disabled get into their wheelchairs and to the chapel, I witnessed a guy having residents sign ballots that were either already filled out or blank. He had what appeared to be at least several dozen in his possession.

b) I witnessed a person dropping off a very large bundle of envelopes into a drop box that just happened to not have a surveillance camera on it.

Could I prove either event to another soul? No. But I heard from enough other volunteers to believe these weren't isolated incidents.

 

[Kilroy2]

I'd be very interested in hearing any details you care to share. Including if you reported the incident(s).

Even in a court of law you probably would need more that just an eye witness account. Other evidence would be needed to support that account.
You can say you saw something but the other person can still deny it. Thus you need other proof to support whatever position is taken for what happen.

comments that the other side is this or that does not proof anything by bias.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

One of the most prevalent forms of intellectual dishonesty arises from those in the throes of the fashionable transsexual fad.

I have yet to have a single one who will admit that a decade ago, they did not believe women had penises.

Are these people even sentient?

 

[alang1216]

What good does it do to report something you cannot prove? I did report it to the GOP folks heading up the campaigns here in New Mexico but there wasn't much they could do.

And we are a very heavily blue state in which those in power are not the least bit interested in election fraud as it all goes their way.

What I witnessed was:
a) I was leading worship at a rehab facility which was a ministry I did periodically for a number of years. And while helping the disabled get into their wheelchairs and to the chapel, I witnessed a guy having residents sign ballots that were either already filled out or blank. He had what appeared to be at least several dozen in his possession.

b) I witnessed a person dropping off a very large bundle of envelopes into a drop box that just happened to not have a surveillance camera on it.

Could I prove either event to another soul? No. But I heard from enough other volunteers to believe these weren't isolated incidents.

Thanks for the info but it raises as many questions as it answers.

• Do you know if the guy having residents sign ballots that were either already filled out or blank was a Dem or GOP?
• Same about the person dropping off a very large bundle of envelopes into a drop box.
• Seems stupid for a Dem to violate Federal law very heavily blue state but...

 

[Foxfyre]

The earth is not flat. Defending that believe is denial. The earth would have to be considered in its entirety not just what can be observed.

Different thesis. Different topic. This thread is re intellectual dishonesty or defending what you KNOW is error.

 

[Foxfyre]

Thanks for the info but it raises as many questions as it answers.

• Do you know if the guy having residents sign ballots that were either already filled out or blank was a Dem or GOP?
• Same about the person dropping off a very large bundle of envelopes into a drop box.
• Seems stupid for a Dem to violate Federal law very heavily blue state but...

No Republican in this state would dare do that because they would be reported and probably at least investigated. The administrator of the rehab facility had an Obama/Biden bumper sticker on his car.

But can I say I knew either individual? No.

But we did witness Democrats at a local new citizen swearing in ceremony at the Convention Center going to the new citizens to register them to vote and telling them to be sure to mark the DEMOCRAT box which was blatantly illegal for them to do.