Zone1 Intellectual Honesty

How intellectually honest am I? Do I want truth more than I want to be right?

  • I am never wrong so I don't have to admit any mistakes.

  • I am sometimes wrong and it is easy to admit it.

  • I am sometimes wrong but I usually don't admit it.

  • I am sometimes wrong and I will never admit it.


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Foxfyre

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ZONE 1 everybody so keep it civil:

When it comes to sociopolitical issues, conspiracy theories abound on both sides of the aisle as do cherished beliefs based on partisan ideology.

While it certainly does not apply to all on the left, and does not exclude everybody on the right, the propensity of those in control of the message on the left--government, media, education, entertainment, etc.--to deliberately and intentionally spread disinformation and detract from honest evidence for political gain makes me presume they believe they are morally justified in doing that. So the topic probably won't be of much if any interest to them.

So this discussion will be directed mostly to those on the right who I believe are more likely to think they are justified in believing what they believe.

But if practical strategy makes intellectual honesty scarce on the left, how much can be found on the right?

One of the hardest things any of us will have to do is give up a cherished conviction or belief when we are shown that it cannot be supported with evidence. And it becomes far more difficult (and usually embarrassing) when we have emphatically and passionately argued for a point of view and find out we are wrong.

Who among us has never been involved in a passionate argument with somebody when there is that horrible feeling akin to panic when we suddenly realize we are wrong?

How we handle those situations reveals how intellectually honest we actually are.

So those of us on the right. Are we intellectually honest? Or do we doggedly hold onto our conviction or what we want to be truth regardless of what information calls it into question or discredits it entirely? Do we allow others a different opinion or disparage them because of it?

In this thread I hope we will be able to explore some of our convictions and beliefs that we might seriously consider rethinking. And it will be fair game for us to defend those convictions and beliefs that we are confident can be competently defended.

(Poll options are anonymous and can be changed if you change your mind. I hope at least some will be willing to admit/reveal their choices though.)

Some topics involving conspiracy theories some true, some not, some unproven that keep resurfacing over the years are listed below. This is NOT intended to be a complete list and certainly other topics can be discussed here:

--The Mexican tall ship hitting the bridge was intentional
--Epstein's death
--The FBI had agents helping instigate the riot on J6
--The Democrats helped instigate the riot on J6
--Trump instigated the riot on J6
--The media and Democrats covered up Biden's dementia
--Trump colluded with the Russians
--Many unexplained deaths involving the Clintons
--9/11 was an inside job
--Kennedy and the gunmen on the grassy knoll
--Trump only wants to benefit billionaires

Obviously we could go on and on but how much of any of this do we believe or not believe? And could anything change our mind?
 
I don't have to admit any mistakes.

You do not have to admit any mistake and can still move on as long as your breathing.
 
One such incident happened today. Many people on social media portrayed that Mexican tall ship as politically motivated, even loaded with migrants, intent on making a political statement.

The evidence, however, is that ship is actually a Mexican naval vessel used as a training vessel as it sails about the world on good will missions. It hitting the bridge was almost certainly an unfortunate and, for those injured or killed, tragic accident. The conspiracy theory was entirely unfounded and in error.

I'm seeing much fewer of those politically motivated but almost certainly erroneous posts on social media now, but very very few acknowledgments that the information previously posted was in error.
 
I don't have to admit any mistakes.

You do not have to admit any mistake and can still move on as long as your breathing.
That is true. You don't have to admit any mistakes and can still move on so long as you are breathing.

But can you say you are intellectually honest when you do that?
 
Another is a favorite right wing belief that Jeffrey Epstein was murdered for political expediency and his suicide faked.

This morning on "Sunday Morning Futures" with Maria Bartiromo, Kash Patel and Dan Bongino both expressed that they had been over all the files and evidence, and in their opinion Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. They acknowledged that this information would not be popular with many, but they are convinced that is the correct conclusion.

How many immediately resent Kash and Dan for coming to that conclusion? Or how many can accept it as the way it most likely is?
 
Another is a favorite right wing belief that Jeffrey Epstein was murdered for political expediency and his suicide faked.

This morning on "Sunday Morning Futures" with Maria Bartiromo, Kash Patel and Dan Bongino both expressed that they had been over all the files and evidence, and in their opinion Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. They acknowledged that this information would not be popular with many, but they are convinced that is the correct conclusion.

How many immediately resent Kash and Dan for coming to that conclusion? Or how many can accept it as the way it most likely is?
I've seen a convict off himself in the same manner so it seemed legit to me.

It's just that so many hopes were dashed I guess.
 
One such incident happened today. Many people on social media portrayed that Mexican tall ship as politically motivated, even loaded with migrants, intent on making a political statement.

The evidence, however, is that ship is actually a Mexican naval vessel used as a training vessel as it sails about the world on good will missions. It hitting the bridge was almost certainly an unfortunate and, for those injured or killed, tragic accident. The conspiracy theory was entirely unfounded and in error.

I'm seeing much fewer of those politically motivated but almost certainly erroneous posts on social media now, but very very few acknowledgments that the information previously posted was in error.
.

I will consider your point that it might have been an accident.

The person who started the thread about it made it look like it was an attack.


.
 
I've seen a convict off himself in the same manner so it seemed legit to me.

It's just that so many hopes were dashed I guess.
It's just that it was maybe really tantalizing--maybe really hopeful--to so many to believe people they dislike in politics or whatever were on Epstein's flights/island i.e. part of the scandal. How satisfying it would be if that came out about those people. And it helped the narrative to believe he was 'offed' to prevent him spilling the beans about all that.

And after sometimes hours and hours of arguments as to why Epstein had to be murdered and there is no way he committed suicide, it's tough to accept that you/I/he/she/we was wrong about that.

If I ever took a position on that I have forgotten doing it. For some time now I have preferred to be in the "I don't know for sure what happened" category but there sure seemed to be an awful lot of unlikely coincidences involved at the time the death happened.

Apparently they all were just that. Coincidences.
 
Another is a favorite right wing belief that Jeffrey Epstein was murdered for political expediency and his suicide faked.

This morning on "Sunday Morning Futures" with Maria Bartiromo, Kash Patel and Dan Bongino both expressed that they had been over all the files and evidence, and in their opinion Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. They acknowledged that this information would not be popular with many, but they are convinced that is the correct conclusion.

How many immediately resent Kash and Dan for coming to that conclusion? Or how many can accept it as the way it most likely is?
.

When I was getting ready to move to SD, I was cruising google maps and was looking at all of the photos posted from inside Hobby Lobby. You know how people will make messages out of the monogram merchandise? Someone rearranged the letters in one display to read, "Epstein didn't kill himself".

I knew I was moving to the right place.

The photo is still on their Google Maps page.


.
 
.

I will consider your point that it might have been an accident.

The person who started the thread about it made it look like it was an attack.


.
Sometimes that is all intellectual honesty requires, i.e. a willingness to consider that another point of view might be valid.
 
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--The Mexican tall ship hitting the bridge was intentional
If it wasn't , it should have been .
Small matter of minimum interest/significance
--Epstein's death
Probably faked death but the full evidence will be kept secret for a long long time . Too much cross party involvement .
--The Democrats helped instigate the riot on J6
Totally planned False Flag
--Trump instigated the riot on J6
Garbage, though Trumpfy doubtless privately pleased with the way matters happened
--The media and Democrats covered up Biden's dementia
100% . Wretched individual but protected as a useful Puppet
--Trump colluded with the Russians
Doubtful .But Trumpfy doubtless chatted privately to pooters , a fellow Deep Statist and Jew .
--Many unexplained deaths involving the Clintons
Popularly over 50 . Essentially a great Mafia duo .
--9/11 was an inside job
Thank you Israel . 100 % certain
--Kennedy and the gunmen on the grassy knoll
CIA beat him . He wanted too much , too quickly and without organising protection . Naive . Gay .
--Trump only wants to benefit billionaires
Do not know . Not bothered
 
.

I will consider your point that it might have been an accident.

The person who started the thread about it made it look like it was an attack.


.
All the reporting I've seen suggests a terrible accident and certainly not a deliberate event or worse, act of terrorism, as some want us to believe.

I can post myriad links but picked this one because it confirms what I thought I saw in the videos. The ship was moving backwards and went stern first under the bridge. That really underscores that it was in no way intentional.

 
If it wasn't , it should have been .
Small matter of minimum interest/significance

Probably faked death but the full evidence will be kept secret for a long long time . Too much cross party involvement .

Totally planned False Flag

Garbage, though Trumpfy doubtless privately pleased with the way matters happened

100% . Wretched individual but protected as a useful Puppet

Doubtful .But Trumpfy doubtless chatted privately to pooters , a fellow Deep Statist and Jew .

Popularly over 50 . Essentially a great Mafia duo .

Thank you Israel . 100 % certain

CIA beat him . He wanted too much , too quickly and without organising protection . Naive . Gay .

Do not know . Not bothered
Okay you stated all your summarized beliefs. Now would you care to address how they relate to the OP?
 
All the reporting I've seen suggests a terrible accident and certainly not a deliberate event or worse, act of terrorism, as some want us to believe.

I can post myriad links but picked this one because it confirms what I thought I saw in the videos. The ship was moving backwards and went stern first under the bridge. That really underscores that it was in no way intentional.

.

Thanks for sharing, although I think PBS is heavily biased to the left, which makes me go :dunno:


.
 
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When I was getting ready to move to SD, I was cruising google maps and was looking at all of the photos posted from inside Hobby Lobby. You know how people will make messages out of the monogram merchandise? Someone rearranged the letters in one display to read, "Epstein didn't kill himself".

I knew I was moving to the right place.

The photo is still on their Google Maps page.


.
Do you still believe that given that the FBI Director and Deputy Director both came out today stating that they have been through all the files and evidence and are convinced it was a suicide? (They both acknowledged they knew their opinion wouldn't be popular with many. :) )
 
Do you still believe that given that the FBI Director and Deputy Director both came out today stating that they have been through all the files and evidence and are convinced it was a suicide? (They both acknowledged they knew their opinion wouldn't be popular with many. :) )
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FBI Director and Deputy Director under which President?

Actually, what I believe was not what really factored into the statement I made. What impressed me the most was that somebody here was thinking hard enough to at least be critical, instead of lapping up the KoolAid -- the "official narrative".


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