Inspiration Occurs When “Logic” Is Out of the Way

[Christopher]

I watched a few years ago on the Discovery Channel a segment on the human body and heard some interesting information about our dreams and the activity of the brain during sleep (REM in particular). It used to be thought by scientists that our brain would shut down for the night when we sleep. This we now know is far from the truth. What is very interesting is that scientists have found that there is one part of the brain that does shut down while the rest of the brain is active: the logical part. Scientists on the show were interviewed and discussed how they have used their dreams to help them solve problems they could not solve using analytical reasoning during the day. Their dreams helped them “think outside the box” and give them inspiration to see the answers to their problems more clearly. It is almost as if the logical part of our brain acts to block receiving inspiration regarding difficult questions or problems.

The study of the brain during sleep has clearly shown that taking logic out of the way when trying to answer difficult questions, which I would add includes questions about God, can help us see more clearly the answers and we are more open to inspiration. So, I would ask that all of you who focus on “logic” to reach conclusions about God to shut down the logical side of your brain from time to time and this will enable you to receive inspiration and greater knowledge. Please understand that I am not trying to say logic is bad, just that it can take us only so far in learning about things such as God.

Take logic out of the way, depend on "dreams" and what you have left are "delusions".

Have you ever learned anything of value through your emotions? If so, you are just as "delusional". If not, you need to get out more.

 

[Christopher]

I posted this passage in a similar thread not too long ago:

"For the purpose of knowledge, then, the region of mystic experience is as real as any other region of human experience and cannot be ignored merely because it cannot be traced back to sense-perception. Nor is it possible to undo the spiritual value of the mystic state by by specifying the organic conditions which appear to determine it. Even if the postulate of modern psychology as to the inter-relation of body and mind is assumed to be true, it is illogical to discredit the value of the mystic state as a revelation of truth. Psychologically speaking, all states, whether their content is religious or non-religious, are organically determined. The scientific form of mind is as much organically determined as the religious. Our judgment as to the creation of genius is not at all determined or even remotely affected by what our psychologists may say regarding its organic conditions. A certain kind of temperament may be a necessary condition for a certain kind of receptivity; but the antecedent condition cannot be regarded as the whole truth about the character of what is received. The truth is that the organic causation of our mental states has nothing to do with the criteria by which we judge them to be superior or inferior in point of value..." - Sir Muhammad Iqbal, 1930​

Great quote Kalam, thanks.

 

[Diuretic]

I can get greater inspiration and knowledge from LSD than I can from any God.

Have you ever sincerely tried to gain knowledge from God through prayer?

Prayer is probably a really good way of concentrating the mind but in terms of producing knowledge it might be a little short. However it is true that religion has a tradition of knowledge-seeking. But when you are able to prove that prayer delivers knowledge, let me know.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I can get greater inspiration and knowledge from LSD than I can from any God.

Have you ever sincerely tried to gain knowledge from God through prayer?

Prayer is probably a really good way of concentrating the mind but in terms of producing knowledge it might be a little short. However it is true that religion has a tradition of knowledge-seeking. But when you are able to prove that prayer delivers knowledge, let me know.

It's possible prayer delivers knowledge but indirectly. Consider the uses of prayer. If you use prayer to get your mind in a receptive state for meditation and then you have insight in your meditation then prayer has delivered knowledge.

 

[Avatar4321]

Take logic out of the way, depend on "dreams" and what you have left are "delusions".

Which, of course, is why you don't ever learn anything.

I just seem that way to you because your mind is an empty shell. Similar to a withered nut.

a withered nut? well that's a new one. Thought that one up by yourself?

Learning is a pleasure and a life long endevour. You really shouldnt limit what you can learn and how.

 

[Avatar4321]

I can get greater inspiration and knowledge from LSD than I can from any God.

Have you ever sincerely tried to gain knowledge from God through prayer?

Prayer is probably a really good way of concentrating the mind but in terms of producing knowledge it might be a little short. However it is true that religion has a tradition of knowledge-seeking. But when you are able to prove that prayer delivers knowledge, let me know.

How am i supposed to prove to you what Ive learned through prayer? I can tell you that I've learned lots from prayer. But prove what I've learned? How is that possible? How are you supposed to learn about the benefits of prayer unless you pray and find out yourself?

 

[Diuretic]

Have you ever sincerely tried to gain knowledge from God through prayer?

Prayer is probably a really good way of concentrating the mind but in terms of producing knowledge it might be a little short. However it is true that religion has a tradition of knowledge-seeking. But when you are able to prove that prayer delivers knowledge, let me know.

How am i supposed to prove to you what Ive learned through prayer? I can tell you that I've learned lots from prayer. But prove what I've learned? How is that possible? How are you supposed to learn about the benefits of prayer unless you pray and find out yourself?

You can prove what you've learned through prayer the same way you can prove what you've learned from being exposed to any other source of knowledge. You simply compare the previous state with the state after the knowledge experience. That can be done by administering a written test, for example.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Prayer is probably a really good way of concentrating the mind but in terms of producing knowledge it might be a little short. However it is true that religion has a tradition of knowledge-seeking. But when you are able to prove that prayer delivers knowledge, let me know.

How am i supposed to prove to you what Ive learned through prayer? I can tell you that I've learned lots from prayer. But prove what I've learned? How is that possible? How are you supposed to learn about the benefits of prayer unless you pray and find out yourself?

You can prove what you've learned through prayer the same way you can prove what you've learned from being exposed to any other source of knowledge. You simply compare the previous state with the state after the knowledge experience. That can be done by administering a written test, for example.

I've learned that the heart can be opened through prayer.

 

[Christopher]

I can get greater inspiration and knowledge from LSD than I can from any God.

Have you ever sincerely tried to gain knowledge from God through prayer?

Prayer is probably a really good way of concentrating the mind but in terms of producing knowledge it might be a little short. However it is true that religion has a tradition of knowledge-seeking. But when you are able to prove that prayer delivers knowledge, let me know.

Knowing when personal, individual knowledge is needed and when scientific knowledge/consensus is needed is the key. Prayer and God are aspects of our life that I believe require personal, individual involvement.

I've already proven for myself that prayer delivers knowledge. Only by others experimenting with prayer individually and sincerely will they gain the same knowledge.

 

[editec]

I watched a few years ago on the Discovery Channel a segment on the human body and heard some interesting information about our dreams and the activity of the brain during sleep (REM in particular). It used to be thought by scientists that our brain would shut down for the night when we sleep. This we now know is far from the truth. What is very interesting is that scientists have found that there is one part of the brain that does shut down while the rest of the brain is active: the logical part. Scientists on the show were interviewed and discussed how they have used their dreams to help them solve problems they could not solve using analytical reasoning during the day. Their dreams helped them “think outside the box” and give them inspiration to see the answers to their problems more clearly. It is almost as if the logical part of our brain acts to block receiving inspiration regarding difficult questions or problems.

The study of the brain during sleep has clearly shown that taking logic out of the way when trying to answer difficult questions, which I would add includes questions about God, can help us see more clearly the answers and we are more open to inspiration. So, I would ask that all of you who focus on “logic” to reach conclusions about God to shut down the logical side of your brain from time to time and this will enable you to receive inspiration and greater knowledge. Please understand that I am not trying to say logic is bad, just that it can take us only so far in learning about things such as God.

Logic is a double edged sword.

On one hand, it is the process by which we solve problems.

Basically we use what we know and apply logic to the problem to find a solution.

But inspiration works differently and thank GOD it does.

Inspiration is not subject to what we know. And that is a good thing, since what we THINK we know (or even know correctly) isn't necessarily the whole story.

Surely I am not the only person here who has been plagued with a problem, one that I could not solve logically, that I solved in my sleep, right?

Why did I have to be asleep?

Because what I thought I fully understood about the problem, wasn't the entire problem.

The unconscious considers EVERYTHING when dealing with problems.

Things that logically we dismiss as not relevant when we are conscious.

Things that are part of the issue, we INCORRECTLY dismiss as not relevant.

We are much smarter than we think we are consciously, folks.

We are much more than our consciousness, too. We are also our unconscious mind.

Logic can give you A solution.

The unconscious mind can give you YOUR solution.

They are frequently not at all the same thing.

 

[Diuretic]

Have you ever sincerely tried to gain knowledge from God through prayer?

Prayer is probably a really good way of concentrating the mind but in terms of producing knowledge it might be a little short. However it is true that religion has a tradition of knowledge-seeking. But when you are able to prove that prayer delivers knowledge, let me know.

Knowing when personal, individual knowledge is needed and when scientific knowledge/consensus is needed is the key. Prayer and God are aspects of our life that I believe require personal, individual involvement.

I've already proven for myself that prayer delivers knowledge. Only by others experimenting with prayer individually and sincerely will they gain the same knowledge.

Your subjective experiences are not evidence of any link between knowledge and prayer I'm afraid.

 

[Diuretic]

The conscious/unconscious argument is a good one. I'm not sure about "inspiration" though, I think the root of the word is connected to an assumption that some sort of insight can be drawn into the mind from an external source (eg a god) while we know that isn't how the mind works. I think it's more a case of our conscious mind following the paths we have learned to use through our life experiences (which are socially mediated) and we - using our conscious mind state - dismiss the more wacky ideas that comes to us. The unconscious mind doesn't care about embarrassment or social mores and can come up with some self-generated wacky solutions. You can do the same thing if you really focus your conscious mind as well. I've done a lot of this in critical thinking and problem-solving with groups, as soon as they relax the ideas begin to flow.

 

[Christopher]

Prayer is probably a really good way of concentrating the mind but in terms of producing knowledge it might be a little short. However it is true that religion has a tradition of knowledge-seeking. But when you are able to prove that prayer delivers knowledge, let me know.

Knowing when personal, individual knowledge is needed and when scientific knowledge/consensus is needed is the key. Prayer and God are aspects of our life that I believe require personal, individual involvement.

I've already proven for myself that prayer delivers knowledge. Only by others experimenting with prayer individually and sincerely will they gain the same knowledge.

Your subjective experiences are not evidence of any link between knowledge and prayer I'm afraid.

Of course they are not evidence for you or anyone else. That does not change whether it is evidence for myself. Have you never gained any personal knowledge of value through your own subjective experiences?

 

[Christopher]

The conscious/unconscious argument is a good one. I'm not sure about "inspiration" though, I think the root of the word is connected to an assumption that some sort of insight can be drawn into the mind from an external source (eg a god) while we know that isn't how the mind works. I think it's more a case of our conscious mind following the paths we have learned to use through our life experiences (which are socially mediated) and we - using our conscious mind state - dismiss the more wacky ideas that comes to us. The unconscious mind doesn't care about embarrassment or social mores and can come up with some self-generated wacky solutions. You can do the same thing if you really focus your conscious mind as well. I've done a lot of this in critical thinking and problem-solving with groups, as soon as they relax the ideas begin to flow.

I see what you are saying and agree. I guess in using the word "inspiration" I do think we can have inspiration through thinking things through logically as well. It just seems to me that there is great potential in receiving "inspiration" about something when logic is not involved and we should not just ignore this potential for gaining knowledge from an individual perspective.

 

[Christopher]

I watched a few years ago on the Discovery Channel a segment on the human body and heard some interesting information about our dreams and the activity of the brain during sleep (REM in particular). It used to be thought by scientists that our brain would shut down for the night when we sleep. This we now know is far from the truth. What is very interesting is that scientists have found that there is one part of the brain that does shut down while the rest of the brain is active: the logical part. Scientists on the show were interviewed and discussed how they have used their dreams to help them solve problems they could not solve using analytical reasoning during the day. Their dreams helped them “think outside the box” and give them inspiration to see the answers to their problems more clearly. It is almost as if the logical part of our brain acts to block receiving inspiration regarding difficult questions or problems.

The study of the brain during sleep has clearly shown that taking logic out of the way when trying to answer difficult questions, which I would add includes questions about God, can help us see more clearly the answers and we are more open to inspiration. So, I would ask that all of you who focus on “logic” to reach conclusions about God to shut down the logical side of your brain from time to time and this will enable you to receive inspiration and greater knowledge. Please understand that I am not trying to say logic is bad, just that it can take us only so far in learning about things such as God.

The unconscious considers EVERYTHING when dealing with problems.

Things that logically we dismiss as not relevant when we are conscious.

Things that are part of the issue, we INCORRECTLY dismiss as not relevant.

I think that is a key to the discussion, great point.

 

[Diuretic]

Knowing when personal, individual knowledge is needed and when scientific knowledge/consensus is needed is the key. Prayer and God are aspects of our life that I believe require personal, individual involvement.

I've already proven for myself that prayer delivers knowledge. Only by others experimenting with prayer individually and sincerely will they gain the same knowledge.

Your subjective experiences are not evidence of any link between knowledge and prayer I'm afraid.

Of course they are not evidence for you or anyone else. That does not change whether it is evidence for myself. Have you never gained any personal knowledge of value through your own subjective experiences?

Yes I have. I learned not to stick my hand in the fire. That one was very early in my life. Of course I learned that through experience, not inspiration. I had a think about this and I can honestly say I've never been able to develop personal knowledge through just sitting there thinking about something. I may have used pre-existing knowledge to solve a problem but I've never felt that I've "known" something that wasn't already there, gained through the exercise of my senses.

 

[Diuretic]

The conscious/unconscious argument is a good one. I'm not sure about "inspiration" though, I think the root of the word is connected to an assumption that some sort of insight can be drawn into the mind from an external source (eg a god) while we know that isn't how the mind works. I think it's more a case of our conscious mind following the paths we have learned to use through our life experiences (which are socially mediated) and we - using our conscious mind state - dismiss the more wacky ideas that comes to us. The unconscious mind doesn't care about embarrassment or social mores and can come up with some self-generated wacky solutions. You can do the same thing if you really focus your conscious mind as well. I've done a lot of this in critical thinking and problem-solving with groups, as soon as they relax the ideas begin to flow.

I see what you are saying and agree. I guess in using the word "inspiration" I do think we can have inspiration through thinking things through logically as well. It just seems to me that there is great potential in receiving "inspiration" about something when logic is not involved and we should not just ignore this potential for gaining knowledge from an individual perspective.

I'm not an adherent of the view that we can be "inspired" by divine revelation. I do think that we possess a brain sufficiently effective that it can produce "solutions" to problems but only based on what is stored in the individual's memory or what the individual can absorb from another source (eg a book).

 

[Christopher]

Your subjective experiences are not evidence of any link between knowledge and prayer I'm afraid.

Of course they are not evidence for you or anyone else. That does not change whether it is evidence for myself. Have you never gained any personal knowledge of value through your own subjective experiences?

Yes I have. I learned not to stick my hand in the fire. That one was very early in my life. Of course I learned that through experience, not inspiration. I had a think about this and I can honestly say I've never been able to develop personal knowledge through just sitting there thinking about something. I may have used pre-existing knowledge to solve a problem but I've never felt that I've "known" something that wasn't already there, gained through the exercise of my senses.

Thanks you for the honest answer. What about through your emotions?

 

[Christopher]

The conscious/unconscious argument is a good one. I'm not sure about "inspiration" though, I think the root of the word is connected to an assumption that some sort of insight can be drawn into the mind from an external source (eg a god) while we know that isn't how the mind works. I think it's more a case of our conscious mind following the paths we have learned to use through our life experiences (which are socially mediated) and we - using our conscious mind state - dismiss the more wacky ideas that comes to us. The unconscious mind doesn't care about embarrassment or social mores and can come up with some self-generated wacky solutions. You can do the same thing if you really focus your conscious mind as well. I've done a lot of this in critical thinking and problem-solving with groups, as soon as they relax the ideas begin to flow.

I see what you are saying and agree. I guess in using the word "inspiration" I do think we can have inspiration through thinking things through logically as well. It just seems to me that there is great potential in receiving "inspiration" about something when logic is not involved and we should not just ignore this potential for gaining knowledge from an individual perspective.

I'm not an adherent of the view that we can be "inspired" by divine revelation. I do think that we possess a brain sufficiently effective that it can produce "solutions" to problems but only based on what is stored in the individual's memory or what the individual can absorb from another source (eg a book).

Your first sentence is where we differ. I believe we can be inspired by divine revelation, because of my own personal experiences.

 

[Diuretic]

Of course they are not evidence for you or anyone else. That does not change whether it is evidence for myself. Have you never gained any personal knowledge of value through your own subjective experiences?

Yes I have. I learned not to stick my hand in the fire. That one was very early in my life. Of course I learned that through experience, not inspiration. I had a think about this and I can honestly say I've never been able to develop personal knowledge through just sitting there thinking about something. I may have used pre-existing knowledge to solve a problem but I've never felt that I've "known" something that wasn't already there, gained through the exercise of my senses.

Thanks you for the honest answer. What about through your emotions?

Given that emotions are states of consciousness, yes, I think we can learn through them.