daveman
Diamond Member
I'm sure Carby is grateful for you running interference for him, but how about we let him explain the obvious dichotomy between his hand-wringing over white people stealing natives' land and him keeping his house?
Indian Land???
- Thread starter PoliticalChic
- Start date
saintmichaeldefendthem
Gold Member
I'm not wasting my time with neocon asses anymore.
PoliticalChic
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #43
1. There was no genocide.
There were huge numbers of Indian deaths due to microorganism to which they had no resistance....Influenza, chicken pox, small pox,...and the plague that decimated the Europeans back home.
a.
Just as microbes that they were unaccustomed to killed the Indians, the Treponema pallidum, the cause of syphilis, killed the settlers...they hadn't met this disease in Europe.
One would have to say that the Indians committed genocide on the world by infecting same with syphilis.
b. Respond to this:
The only way one can claim the disease induced deaths of the natives was a "genocide" is by also attributing the deaths in Europe from the Black Plague as a genocide, as well.
2. "I'm talking about the human definition of genocide by which a people with superior weaponry wiped out thousands of Natives..."
The Indian acquired same from colonials.
Indians quickly saw the value of muskets, and were able to trade for same, using them for hunting and against rival tribes.
a. Far from the static view that politicians have of human endeavors, in actuality, people behave dynamically. In this case, gettingguns made the Indians more dependent on Europeans,for ammunition, powder, and repair of the weapons.
b. And, like garage door openers, once they had guns, they couldn't imagine living without them. So much for sending the Europeans away!
And, the law of unintended consequences went further: guns caused a loss of the skills needed in using bows/arrows!
Walter McDougall, "Freedom Just Around the Corner: A New American History: 1585-1828"
c. To show the extent of the desire for guns, in 1641, the Iroquois sued for peace in order to regain access to the guns the French were selling them! "Firearms in Colonial America: The Impact on History and Technology 1492-1792,'M. L. Brown,
p.151-158
3. "...Natives with whom treaties were drafted and signed."
Natives broke as many treaties.
Wise up.
4. "...that support your lie."
I never lie.
And I'm never wrong.
saintmichaeldefendthem
Gold Member
It's at times like this that I see why the Left views right wingers as racists. Some of us are.
daveman
Diamond Member
What makes you think I'm a neocon?
PoliticalChic
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #46
PoliticalChic
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #47
"I'm beginning to really not like this person."
That means that you are beginning to really not like truth.
PoliticalChic
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #48
007
Charter Member
And who was here before the people we know as "native Americans?"
And why are we bickering over ancient history? Was not the north American continent pretty much open for, "to the victor goes the spoils?" I don't recall any boundaries or ruling governments here 250 years ago. Just how far back is this moronic game supposed to go? Should we hold China to the same ridiculous circumstances? How about Russia... all of Europe? Let's just rearrange the entire planet back to the CAVE MAN DAYS, because THEY were the TRUE natives of ANYWHERE.
And why are we bickering over ancient history? Was not the north American continent pretty much open for, "to the victor goes the spoils?" I don't recall any boundaries or ruling governments here 250 years ago. Just how far back is this moronic game supposed to go? Should we hold China to the same ridiculous circumstances? How about Russia... all of Europe? Let's just rearrange the entire planet back to the CAVE MAN DAYS, because THEY were the TRUE natives of ANYWHERE.
Last edited:
007
Charter Member
That's why it's not a good idea to give a red skin "fire water." I know, I've seen it.
NYcarbineer
Diamond Member
This thread is about history. And people like the OP trying to rewrite it.
PoliticalChic
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #52
daveman
Diamond Member
Still trying to dictate what others may and may not say, I see. How's that working out for you?
It's okay, Carby. I understand you're uncomfortable when your progressive hypocrisy is pointed out.
Wry Catcher
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #54
The indoctrinates, i.e., the Leftists love to besmirch the early settlers.
Case in point, by our pal Dot Com.....
Here is the education that Dot Com never received in government schooling:
"Indian Land"
1. Pilgrims landed in 1620. Land was hardly the problem for these folks, as they found that diseases caused by earlier explorers had left entire villages empty and available.
Pilgrim Wm. Bradford was Plymouth Colony governor for 30 years.
"Another smallpox epidemic struck the Indians after 1633, renewing the 'providential', die-off that preceded the Pilgrims. There was indeed land to spare which tribal chiefs wee pleased to sell, especially since contracts of sale invariably reserved to the Indians the right to hunt, fish and sometimes even plant on land they gave up. "
"Freedom Just Around the Corner: A New American History: 1585-1828," p. 58-59,
byWalter A. McDougall
Boundary disputes were rare as well for 'The Natives are very exact and punctuall in the bounds of their Lands."
"New England Frontier: Puritans and Indians, 1620-1675," p. 104-109,
by Alden T. Vaughan
2. The Massachusetts Bay Colony was founded in the late 1620s, by Puritans who received a royal charter in 1629. John Winthrop was a leader of the colony, and governor off and on.
3. Especially along the Eastern seaboard, the view that the Indians objected to Europeans taking their land is a misunderstanding of the concept of land ownership. Indians were largely nomadic, and where they stopped was 'their land'....for the moment.
They laughed at the whites paying them for land.
a. "We could say that all conflicts between European settlers in America and American Indians were about land. The Indians had it; the Europeans wanted it. In many cases, Europeans simply took what they wanted. In most of British North America, though, settlers actually purchased land from natives. You might think that buying land rather than taking it would prevent conflict. But because Europeans and American Indians had very different ideas about what it meant to buy and to “own” land, these deals actually could cause as much conflict as they prevented.
The traditional view of European-Indian land deals is that Europeans tricked the Indians, who failed to understand the consequences of their actions. In fact, though, Indians often provedsavvynegotiators, and most European settlers understood far less about Indian ideas of land ownership than the Indians understood about theirs."
Who owns the land - North Carolina Digital History
b. "The implications for the Indian question are straightforward. Namely: In the extremely unlikely event that any particular Indian can show that he personally is the rightful heir of a particular Indian who was wrongfully dispossessed of a particular piece of property, the current occupants should hand him the keys to his birthright and vacate the premises. Otherwise the current occupants have the morally strongest claim to their property, and the status quo should continue. Anything more is just the doctrine of collective guilt masquerading as a defense of property rights."
Do Indians Rightfully Own America Bryan Caplan EconLog Library of Economics and Liberty
c. "One popular history of Manhattan notes that the Canarsie Indians "dwelt on Long Island, merely trading on Manhattan, and their trickery [in selling what they didn't possess to the Dutch] made it necessary for the white man to buy part of the island over again from the tribes living near Washington Heights. Still more crafty were the Raritans of [Staten Island], for the records show that Staten Island was sold by these Indians no less than six times."
The Straight Dope How much would the 24 paid for Manhattan be worth in today s money
d. Nor was available land a problem sinced the Puritans readily purchased it from the Indians, as confident as Virginians about their right to do so. (McDougall, Op. Cit.)
John Winthrop, Puritan and early governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, wrote:
".… And for the Natives in New England they inclose noe land neither have any settled habitation nor any tame cattle to improve the land by, & soe have noe other but a naturall right to those countries Soe as if wee leave them sufficient for their use wee may lawfully take the rest, there being more than enough for them & us."
Winthrop Papers, Volume V, 1645–1649. Edited byAllyn B. Forbes.
From kings of the American plains to piles of sun-bleached bones How mass slaughter by hunters nearly wiped out the buffalo Daily Mail Online
Now to deal with the stupidity of the Left, exemplified by their romanticized version of the American Indian.
After slapping you around, educating you may be my second best enjoyment.
The Indians were the destroyers of the buffalo ....
1. "According to the myth of the noble eco-savage, indigenous peoples live in such a sympathetic relationship with the eco system that they only kill for their immediate needs, and never on a scale likely to drive species to extinction.... In fact, these ‘cultural mechanisms’ exist primarily in the minds of Western environmentalists.
It is difficult to find any evidence of them amongst the tribal peoples, either now or in the past.... The aim was to kill as much as possible as quickly as possible, with the minimum risk to the hunter. There was no concern for conserving future stocks, nor for taking only as much as was necessary to meet present needs."
Whelan, "Wild in the Woods: The Myth of the Noble Eco-Savage"
A favorite Indian device was the ‘jump’, which meantstampeding herds of animalsover a cliff, so that the fall would kill them, described in "Playing God in Yellowstone," by Alston Chase.
"The Vore buffalo jump site in Wyoming...was used five times between 1550 and 1690, and holds the remains of 20,000 buffalo. That means 4,000 or more buffalo were killed each time the jump was used. Other buffalo jumps in the West display the remains of as many as 300,000 buffalo. These sites were so numerous, in fact, and held such large deposits of bone, that for many years they were mined as a source of phosphorus for fertilizer!"
Frison, G.C., "Prehistoric Hunters of the High Plains," pp.239-44
Large amounts of meat were left to rot and herds of animals were decimated, and sometimes driven to local extinction. Buffalo and antelope traps killed so many that it took the herds decades to recover.
And so...as the sun sets over this mysterious land, we say good-bye to the 'Noble Savage,' who is too busy to say good-bye.....
...he's busy burning down forests, and destroying every animal he can find.
That's a creepy way of justifying genocide.
Answering only yes or no,
was the bison in danger of extinction before the Europeans had begun to populate North America?
The indoctrinates, i.e., the Leftists love to besmirch the early settlers.
Case in point, by our pal Dot Com.....
Here is the education that Dot Com never received in government schooling:
"Indian Land"
1. Pilgrims landed in 1620. Land was hardly the problem for these folks, as they found that diseases caused by earlier explorers had left entire villages empty and available.
Pilgrim Wm. Bradford was Plymouth Colony governor for 30 years.
"Another smallpox epidemic struck the Indians after 1633, renewing the 'providential', die-off that preceded the Pilgrims. There was indeed land to spare which tribal chiefs wee pleased to sell, especially since contracts of sale invariably reserved to the Indians the right to hunt, fish and sometimes even plant on land they gave up. "
"Freedom Just Around the Corner: A New American History: 1585-1828," p. 58-59,
byWalter A. McDougall
Boundary disputes were rare as well for 'The Natives are very exact and punctuall in the bounds of their Lands."
"New England Frontier: Puritans and Indians, 1620-1675," p. 104-109,
by Alden T. Vaughan
2. The Massachusetts Bay Colony was founded in the late 1620s, by Puritans who received a royal charter in 1629. John Winthrop was a leader of the colony, and governor off and on.
3. Especially along the Eastern seaboard, the view that the Indians objected to Europeans taking their land is a misunderstanding of the concept of land ownership. Indians were largely nomadic, and where they stopped was 'their land'....for the moment.
They laughed at the whites paying them for land.
a. "We could say that all conflicts between European settlers in America and American Indians were about land. The Indians had it; the Europeans wanted it. In many cases, Europeans simply took what they wanted. In most of British North America, though, settlers actually purchased land from natives. You might think that buying land rather than taking it would prevent conflict. But because Europeans and American Indians had very different ideas about what it meant to buy and to “own” land, these deals actually could cause as much conflict as they prevented.
The traditional view of European-Indian land deals is that Europeans tricked the Indians, who failed to understand the consequences of their actions. In fact, though, Indians often provedsavvynegotiators, and most European settlers understood far less about Indian ideas of land ownership than the Indians understood about theirs."
Who owns the land - North Carolina Digital History
b. "The implications for the Indian question are straightforward. Namely: In the extremely unlikely event that any particular Indian can show that he personally is the rightful heir of a particular Indian who was wrongfully dispossessed of a particular piece of property, the current occupants should hand him the keys to his birthright and vacate the premises. Otherwise the current occupants have the morally strongest claim to their property, and the status quo should continue. Anything more is just the doctrine of collective guilt masquerading as a defense of property rights."
Do Indians Rightfully Own America Bryan Caplan EconLog Library of Economics and Liberty
c. "One popular history of Manhattan notes that the Canarsie Indians "dwelt on Long Island, merely trading on Manhattan, and their trickery [in selling what they didn't possess to the Dutch] made it necessary for the white man to buy part of the island over again from the tribes living near Washington Heights. Still more crafty were the Raritans of [Staten Island], for the records show that Staten Island was sold by these Indians no less than six times."
The Straight Dope How much would the 24 paid for Manhattan be worth in today s money
d. Nor was available land a problem sinced the Puritans readily purchased it from the Indians, as confident as Virginians about their right to do so. (McDougall, Op. Cit.)
John Winthrop, Puritan and early governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, wrote:
".… And for the Natives in New England they inclose noe land neither have any settled habitation nor any tame cattle to improve the land by, & soe have noe other but a naturall right to those countries Soe as if wee leave them sufficient for their use wee may lawfully take the rest, there being more than enough for them & us."
Winthrop Papers, Volume V, 1645–1649. Edited byAllyn B. Forbes.
From kings of the American plains to piles of sun-bleached bones How mass slaughter by hunters nearly wiped out the buffalo Daily Mail Online
Now to deal with the stupidity of the Left, exemplified by their romanticized version of the American Indian.
After slapping you around, educating you may be my second best enjoyment.
The Indians were the destroyers of the buffalo ....
1. "According to the myth of the noble eco-savage, indigenous peoples live in such a sympathetic relationship with the eco system that they only kill for their immediate needs, and never on a scale likely to drive species to extinction.... In fact, these ‘cultural mechanisms’ exist primarily in the minds of Western environmentalists.
It is difficult to find any evidence of them amongst the tribal peoples, either now or in the past.... The aim was to kill as much as possible as quickly as possible, with the minimum risk to the hunter. There was no concern for conserving future stocks, nor for taking only as much as was necessary to meet present needs."
Whelan, "Wild in the Woods: The Myth of the Noble Eco-Savage"
A favorite Indian device was the ‘jump’, which meantstampeding herds of animalsover a cliff, so that the fall would kill them, described in "Playing God in Yellowstone," by Alston Chase.
"The Vore buffalo jump site in Wyoming...was used five times between 1550 and 1690, and holds the remains of 20,000 buffalo. That means 4,000 or more buffalo were killed each time the jump was used. Other buffalo jumps in the West display the remains of as many as 300,000 buffalo. These sites were so numerous, in fact, and held such large deposits of bone, that for many years they were mined as a source of phosphorus for fertilizer!"
Frison, G.C., "Prehistoric Hunters of the High Plains," pp.239-44
Large amounts of meat were left to rot and herds of animals were decimated, and sometimes driven to local extinction. Buffalo and antelope traps killed so many that it took the herds decades to recover.
And so...as the sun sets over this mysterious land, we say good-bye to the 'Noble Savage,' who is too busy to say good-bye.....
...he's busy burning down forests, and destroying every animal he can find.
That's a creepy way of justifying genocide.
Answering only yes or no,
was the bison in danger of extinction before the Europeans had begun to populate North America?
No! But history revised by arrogant asshole like PC hope to convince the dumber members of our society that this is so
PoliticalChic
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #55
The indoctrinates, i.e., the Leftists love to besmirch the early settlers.
Case in point, by our pal Dot Com.....
Here is the education that Dot Com never received in government schooling:
"Indian Land"
1. Pilgrims landed in 1620. Land was hardly the problem for these folks, as they found that diseases caused by earlier explorers had left entire villages empty and available.
Pilgrim Wm. Bradford was Plymouth Colony governor for 30 years.
"Another smallpox epidemic struck the Indians after 1633, renewing the 'providential', die-off that preceded the Pilgrims. There was indeed land to spare which tribal chiefs wee pleased to sell, especially since contracts of sale invariably reserved to the Indians the right to hunt, fish and sometimes even plant on land they gave up. "
"Freedom Just Around the Corner: A New American History: 1585-1828," p. 58-59,
byWalter A. McDougall
Boundary disputes were rare as well for 'The Natives are very exact and punctuall in the bounds of their Lands."
"New England Frontier: Puritans and Indians, 1620-1675," p. 104-109,
by Alden T. Vaughan
2. The Massachusetts Bay Colony was founded in the late 1620s, by Puritans who received a royal charter in 1629. John Winthrop was a leader of the colony, and governor off and on.
3. Especially along the Eastern seaboard, the view that the Indians objected to Europeans taking their land is a misunderstanding of the concept of land ownership. Indians were largely nomadic, and where they stopped was 'their land'....for the moment.
They laughed at the whites paying them for land.
a. "We could say that all conflicts between European settlers in America and American Indians were about land. The Indians had it; the Europeans wanted it. In many cases, Europeans simply took what they wanted. In most of British North America, though, settlers actually purchased land from natives. You might think that buying land rather than taking it would prevent conflict. But because Europeans and American Indians had very different ideas about what it meant to buy and to “own” land, these deals actually could cause as much conflict as they prevented.
The traditional view of European-Indian land deals is that Europeans tricked the Indians, who failed to understand the consequences of their actions. In fact, though, Indians often provedsavvynegotiators, and most European settlers understood far less about Indian ideas of land ownership than the Indians understood about theirs."
Who owns the land - North Carolina Digital History
b. "The implications for the Indian question are straightforward. Namely: In the extremely unlikely event that any particular Indian can show that he personally is the rightful heir of a particular Indian who was wrongfully dispossessed of a particular piece of property, the current occupants should hand him the keys to his birthright and vacate the premises. Otherwise the current occupants have the morally strongest claim to their property, and the status quo should continue. Anything more is just the doctrine of collective guilt masquerading as a defense of property rights."
Do Indians Rightfully Own America Bryan Caplan EconLog Library of Economics and Liberty
c. "One popular history of Manhattan notes that the Canarsie Indians "dwelt on Long Island, merely trading on Manhattan, and their trickery [in selling what they didn't possess to the Dutch] made it necessary for the white man to buy part of the island over again from the tribes living near Washington Heights. Still more crafty were the Raritans of [Staten Island], for the records show that Staten Island was sold by these Indians no less than six times."
The Straight Dope How much would the 24 paid for Manhattan be worth in today s money
d. Nor was available land a problem sinced the Puritans readily purchased it from the Indians, as confident as Virginians about their right to do so. (McDougall, Op. Cit.)
John Winthrop, Puritan and early governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, wrote:
".… And for the Natives in New England they inclose noe land neither have any settled habitation nor any tame cattle to improve the land by, & soe have noe other but a naturall right to those countries Soe as if wee leave them sufficient for their use wee may lawfully take the rest, there being more than enough for them & us."
Winthrop Papers, Volume V, 1645–1649. Edited byAllyn B. Forbes.
From kings of the American plains to piles of sun-bleached bones How mass slaughter by hunters nearly wiped out the buffalo Daily Mail Online
Now to deal with the stupidity of the Left, exemplified by their romanticized version of the American Indian.
After slapping you around, educating you may be my second best enjoyment.
The Indians were the destroyers of the buffalo ....
1. "According to the myth of the noble eco-savage, indigenous peoples live in such a sympathetic relationship with the eco system that they only kill for their immediate needs, and never on a scale likely to drive species to extinction.... In fact, these ‘cultural mechanisms’ exist primarily in the minds of Western environmentalists.
It is difficult to find any evidence of them amongst the tribal peoples, either now or in the past.... The aim was to kill as much as possible as quickly as possible, with the minimum risk to the hunter. There was no concern for conserving future stocks, nor for taking only as much as was necessary to meet present needs."
Whelan, "Wild in the Woods: The Myth of the Noble Eco-Savage"
A favorite Indian device was the ‘jump’, which meantstampeding herds of animalsover a cliff, so that the fall would kill them, described in "Playing God in Yellowstone," by Alston Chase.
"The Vore buffalo jump site in Wyoming...was used five times between 1550 and 1690, and holds the remains of 20,000 buffalo. That means 4,000 or more buffalo were killed each time the jump was used. Other buffalo jumps in the West display the remains of as many as 300,000 buffalo. These sites were so numerous, in fact, and held such large deposits of bone, that for many years they were mined as a source of phosphorus for fertilizer!"
Frison, G.C., "Prehistoric Hunters of the High Plains," pp.239-44
Large amounts of meat were left to rot and herds of animals were decimated, and sometimes driven to local extinction. Buffalo and antelope traps killed so many that it took the herds decades to recover.
And so...as the sun sets over this mysterious land, we say good-bye to the 'Noble Savage,' who is too busy to say good-bye.....
...he's busy burning down forests, and destroying every animal he can find.
That's a creepy way of justifying genocide.
Answering only yes or no,
was the bison in danger of extinction before the Europeans had begun to populate North America?The indoctrinates, i.e., the Leftists love to besmirch the early settlers.
Case in point, by our pal Dot Com.....
Here is the education that Dot Com never received in government schooling:
"Indian Land"
1. Pilgrims landed in 1620. Land was hardly the problem for these folks, as they found that diseases caused by earlier explorers had left entire villages empty and available.
Pilgrim Wm. Bradford was Plymouth Colony governor for 30 years.
"Another smallpox epidemic struck the Indians after 1633, renewing the 'providential', die-off that preceded the Pilgrims. There was indeed land to spare which tribal chiefs wee pleased to sell, especially since contracts of sale invariably reserved to the Indians the right to hunt, fish and sometimes even plant on land they gave up. "
"Freedom Just Around the Corner: A New American History: 1585-1828," p. 58-59,
byWalter A. McDougall
Boundary disputes were rare as well for 'The Natives are very exact and punctuall in the bounds of their Lands."
"New England Frontier: Puritans and Indians, 1620-1675," p. 104-109,
by Alden T. Vaughan
2. The Massachusetts Bay Colony was founded in the late 1620s, by Puritans who received a royal charter in 1629. John Winthrop was a leader of the colony, and governor off and on.
3. Especially along the Eastern seaboard, the view that the Indians objected to Europeans taking their land is a misunderstanding of the concept of land ownership. Indians were largely nomadic, and where they stopped was 'their land'....for the moment.
They laughed at the whites paying them for land.
a. "We could say that all conflicts between European settlers in America and American Indians were about land. The Indians had it; the Europeans wanted it. In many cases, Europeans simply took what they wanted. In most of British North America, though, settlers actually purchased land from natives. You might think that buying land rather than taking it would prevent conflict. But because Europeans and American Indians had very different ideas about what it meant to buy and to “own” land, these deals actually could cause as much conflict as they prevented.
The traditional view of European-Indian land deals is that Europeans tricked the Indians, who failed to understand the consequences of their actions. In fact, though, Indians often provedsavvynegotiators, and most European settlers understood far less about Indian ideas of land ownership than the Indians understood about theirs."
Who owns the land - North Carolina Digital History
b. "The implications for the Indian question are straightforward. Namely: In the extremely unlikely event that any particular Indian can show that he personally is the rightful heir of a particular Indian who was wrongfully dispossessed of a particular piece of property, the current occupants should hand him the keys to his birthright and vacate the premises. Otherwise the current occupants have the morally strongest claim to their property, and the status quo should continue. Anything more is just the doctrine of collective guilt masquerading as a defense of property rights."
Do Indians Rightfully Own America Bryan Caplan EconLog Library of Economics and Liberty
c. "One popular history of Manhattan notes that the Canarsie Indians "dwelt on Long Island, merely trading on Manhattan, and their trickery [in selling what they didn't possess to the Dutch] made it necessary for the white man to buy part of the island over again from the tribes living near Washington Heights. Still more crafty were the Raritans of [Staten Island], for the records show that Staten Island was sold by these Indians no less than six times."
The Straight Dope How much would the 24 paid for Manhattan be worth in today s money
d. Nor was available land a problem sinced the Puritans readily purchased it from the Indians, as confident as Virginians about their right to do so. (McDougall, Op. Cit.)
John Winthrop, Puritan and early governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, wrote:
".… And for the Natives in New England they inclose noe land neither have any settled habitation nor any tame cattle to improve the land by, & soe have noe other but a naturall right to those countries Soe as if wee leave them sufficient for their use wee may lawfully take the rest, there being more than enough for them & us."
Winthrop Papers, Volume V, 1645–1649. Edited byAllyn B. Forbes.
From kings of the American plains to piles of sun-bleached bones How mass slaughter by hunters nearly wiped out the buffalo Daily Mail Online
Now to deal with the stupidity of the Left, exemplified by their romanticized version of the American Indian.
After slapping you around, educating you may be my second best enjoyment.
The Indians were the destroyers of the buffalo ....
1. "According to the myth of the noble eco-savage, indigenous peoples live in such a sympathetic relationship with the eco system that they only kill for their immediate needs, and never on a scale likely to drive species to extinction.... In fact, these ‘cultural mechanisms’ exist primarily in the minds of Western environmentalists.
It is difficult to find any evidence of them amongst the tribal peoples, either now or in the past.... The aim was to kill as much as possible as quickly as possible, with the minimum risk to the hunter. There was no concern for conserving future stocks, nor for taking only as much as was necessary to meet present needs."
Whelan, "Wild in the Woods: The Myth of the Noble Eco-Savage"
A favorite Indian device was the ‘jump’, which meantstampeding herds of animalsover a cliff, so that the fall would kill them, described in "Playing God in Yellowstone," by Alston Chase.
"The Vore buffalo jump site in Wyoming...was used five times between 1550 and 1690, and holds the remains of 20,000 buffalo. That means 4,000 or more buffalo were killed each time the jump was used. Other buffalo jumps in the West display the remains of as many as 300,000 buffalo. These sites were so numerous, in fact, and held such large deposits of bone, that for many years they were mined as a source of phosphorus for fertilizer!"
Frison, G.C., "Prehistoric Hunters of the High Plains," pp.239-44
Large amounts of meat were left to rot and herds of animals were decimated, and sometimes driven to local extinction. Buffalo and antelope traps killed so many that it took the herds decades to recover.
And so...as the sun sets over this mysterious land, we say good-bye to the 'Noble Savage,' who is too busy to say good-bye.....
...he's busy burning down forests, and destroying every animal he can find.
That's a creepy way of justifying genocide.
Answering only yes or no,
was the bison in danger of extinction before the Europeans had begun to populate North America?
No! But history revised by arrogant asshole like PC hope to convince the dumber members of our society that this is so
I'm regularly shocked to find fools like you who have accepted the indoctrination, and complain that those of us with the research on our side are the dumb ones.
Why haven't you quoted anything that I've posted and indicated where it is in error?
Because it is linked, sourced, and supported.....and not in error.
The Indians slew every animal they could...and left the majority of the carcasses to rot.
Buffalo were the least of their victims.
Watch me rip you a new one AGAIN:
The extinction of the megafauna coincides with the time the first tribes inhabited the continent.
1. "Saber-toothed cats, American lions, woolly mammoths andother giant creaturesonce roamed across the American landscape. However, at the end of the late Pleistocene about 12,000 years ago, these "megafauna" went extinct, a die-off called the Quaternary extinction."
Starvation Didn t Wipe Out Sabertooth Cats
2. "Prevailing ideas point to all Native Americans descending from ancient Siberians who moved across the Beringia land bridge between Asia and North America between 26,000 and 18,000 years ago. As time wore on, the thinking goes, these people spread southward and gave rise to the Native American populations encountered by European settlers centuries ago.
:History Travel Arts Science People Places Smithsonian
3. No matter the animal....primitives everywhere found ways to kill them.
a. " When the Aborigines arrived in Australia the fauna ‘included a large variety of monotremes and marsupials, including ‘giant’ forms of macropodids (kangaroos and related species).Within 15,000 years all were extinct."
Alvard, M.S., ‘Conservation by Native Peoples: Prey Choice in a Depleted Habitat’, Human Nature, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1994, pp.127-154, citing Horton, J., 'Red Kangaroos: Last of the Australian Megafauna' in Martin, P., and Klein, R., (eds.) Quartenary Extinctions, Tuscon: University and Murray, P., 'Extinctions Down Under: A Bestiary of Extinct Australian Late Pleistocene Monotremes and Marsupials, in Martin, P. and Klein, R.
b. "The ‘prime peoples’ of Madagascar hunted several species of giant lemurs to extinction."
Dewar, R., 'Extinctions in Madagascar: The Loss of the Subfossil Fauna’
Know what "extinction" means???? It refers to your intellect.
c. "The arrival of the Maoris in New Zealand was quickly followed by the extinction of 34 species of birds."
Alvard, M.S., Op.Cit
c. As Matt Ridley puts it, ‘the first Maoris sat down andate their way through all twelve species of the giant moa birds’, leaving about a third of the meat to rot, and entire ovens stuffed with roast haunches unopened, so plentiful was the initial supply.
Ridley, M., "The Origins of Virtue," p.219
4. Peter Martin developed what has become known asthe ‘Overkill Hypothesis’to explainthe disappearance of large number of species - particularly mammal species - over the relatively short time-span of a few thousand years following the arrival of humans on the different continents.He argued that, where animals had plenty of time to get used to humans, as in Europe and Africa where homo sapiens first appeared, they learned to be cautious.
It was the arrival of man in Australia and America which was particularly devastating as the animals did not know what to expect and provided easy targets. North America lost 73 per cent of its large mammalian species, South America 79 per cent, Australia 86 per cent, but Africa only 14 per cent.
Peter Ward, "The End of Evolution: Dinosaurs, Mass Extinction and Biodiversity," p. 202.
AGAIN: linked, sourced, supported.
Get it, you moron????
NYcarbineer
Diamond Member
The indoctrinates, i.e., the Leftists love to besmirch the early settlers.
Case in point, by our pal Dot Com.....
Here is the education that Dot Com never received in government schooling:
"Indian Land"
1. Pilgrims landed in 1620. Land was hardly the problem for these folks, as they found that diseases caused by earlier explorers had left entire villages empty and available.
Pilgrim Wm. Bradford was Plymouth Colony governor for 30 years.
"Another smallpox epidemic struck the Indians after 1633, renewing the 'providential', die-off that preceded the Pilgrims. There was indeed land to spare which tribal chiefs wee pleased to sell, especially since contracts of sale invariably reserved to the Indians the right to hunt, fish and sometimes even plant on land they gave up. "
"Freedom Just Around the Corner: A New American History: 1585-1828," p. 58-59,
byWalter A. McDougall
Boundary disputes were rare as well for 'The Natives are very exact and punctuall in the bounds of their Lands."
"New England Frontier: Puritans and Indians, 1620-1675," p. 104-109,
by Alden T. Vaughan
2. The Massachusetts Bay Colony was founded in the late 1620s, by Puritans who received a royal charter in 1629. John Winthrop was a leader of the colony, and governor off and on.
3. Especially along the Eastern seaboard, the view that the Indians objected to Europeans taking their land is a misunderstanding of the concept of land ownership. Indians were largely nomadic, and where they stopped was 'their land'....for the moment.
They laughed at the whites paying them for land.
a. "We could say that all conflicts between European settlers in America and American Indians were about land. The Indians had it; the Europeans wanted it. In many cases, Europeans simply took what they wanted. In most of British North America, though, settlers actually purchased land from natives. You might think that buying land rather than taking it would prevent conflict. But because Europeans and American Indians had very different ideas about what it meant to buy and to “own” land, these deals actually could cause as much conflict as they prevented.
The traditional view of European-Indian land deals is that Europeans tricked the Indians, who failed to understand the consequences of their actions. In fact, though, Indians often provedsavvynegotiators, and most European settlers understood far less about Indian ideas of land ownership than the Indians understood about theirs."
Who owns the land - North Carolina Digital History
b. "The implications for the Indian question are straightforward. Namely: In the extremely unlikely event that any particular Indian can show that he personally is the rightful heir of a particular Indian who was wrongfully dispossessed of a particular piece of property, the current occupants should hand him the keys to his birthright and vacate the premises. Otherwise the current occupants have the morally strongest claim to their property, and the status quo should continue. Anything more is just the doctrine of collective guilt masquerading as a defense of property rights."
Do Indians Rightfully Own America Bryan Caplan EconLog Library of Economics and Liberty
c. "One popular history of Manhattan notes that the Canarsie Indians "dwelt on Long Island, merely trading on Manhattan, and their trickery [in selling what they didn't possess to the Dutch] made it necessary for the white man to buy part of the island over again from the tribes living near Washington Heights. Still more crafty were the Raritans of [Staten Island], for the records show that Staten Island was sold by these Indians no less than six times."
The Straight Dope How much would the 24 paid for Manhattan be worth in today s money
d. Nor was available land a problem sinced the Puritans readily purchased it from the Indians, as confident as Virginians about their right to do so. (McDougall, Op. Cit.)
John Winthrop, Puritan and early governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, wrote:
".… And for the Natives in New England they inclose noe land neither have any settled habitation nor any tame cattle to improve the land by, & soe have noe other but a naturall right to those countries Soe as if wee leave them sufficient for their use wee may lawfully take the rest, there being more than enough for them & us."
Winthrop Papers, Volume V, 1645–1649. Edited byAllyn B. Forbes.
From kings of the American plains to piles of sun-bleached bones How mass slaughter by hunters nearly wiped out the buffalo Daily Mail Online
Now to deal with the stupidity of the Left, exemplified by their romanticized version of the American Indian.
After slapping you around, educating you may be my second best enjoyment.
The Indians were the destroyers of the buffalo ....
1. "According to the myth of the noble eco-savage, indigenous peoples live in such a sympathetic relationship with the eco system that they only kill for their immediate needs, and never on a scale likely to drive species to extinction.... In fact, these ‘cultural mechanisms’ exist primarily in the minds of Western environmentalists.
It is difficult to find any evidence of them amongst the tribal peoples, either now or in the past.... The aim was to kill as much as possible as quickly as possible, with the minimum risk to the hunter. There was no concern for conserving future stocks, nor for taking only as much as was necessary to meet present needs."
Whelan, "Wild in the Woods: The Myth of the Noble Eco-Savage"
A favorite Indian device was the ‘jump’, which meantstampeding herds of animalsover a cliff, so that the fall would kill them, described in "Playing God in Yellowstone," by Alston Chase.
"The Vore buffalo jump site in Wyoming...was used five times between 1550 and 1690, and holds the remains of 20,000 buffalo. That means 4,000 or more buffalo were killed each time the jump was used. Other buffalo jumps in the West display the remains of as many as 300,000 buffalo. These sites were so numerous, in fact, and held such large deposits of bone, that for many years they were mined as a source of phosphorus for fertilizer!"
Frison, G.C., "Prehistoric Hunters of the High Plains," pp.239-44
Large amounts of meat were left to rot and herds of animals were decimated, and sometimes driven to local extinction. Buffalo and antelope traps killed so many that it took the herds decades to recover.
And so...as the sun sets over this mysterious land, we say good-bye to the 'Noble Savage,' who is too busy to say good-bye.....
...he's busy burning down forests, and destroying every animal he can find.
That's a creepy way of justifying genocide.
Answering only yes or no,
was the bison in danger of extinction before the Europeans had begun to populate North America?The indoctrinates, i.e., the Leftists love to besmirch the early settlers.
Case in point, by our pal Dot Com.....
Here is the education that Dot Com never received in government schooling:
"Indian Land"
1. Pilgrims landed in 1620. Land was hardly the problem for these folks, as they found that diseases caused by earlier explorers had left entire villages empty and available.
Pilgrim Wm. Bradford was Plymouth Colony governor for 30 years.
"Another smallpox epidemic struck the Indians after 1633, renewing the 'providential', die-off that preceded the Pilgrims. There was indeed land to spare which tribal chiefs wee pleased to sell, especially since contracts of sale invariably reserved to the Indians the right to hunt, fish and sometimes even plant on land they gave up. "
"Freedom Just Around the Corner: A New American History: 1585-1828," p. 58-59,
byWalter A. McDougall
Boundary disputes were rare as well for 'The Natives are very exact and punctuall in the bounds of their Lands."
"New England Frontier: Puritans and Indians, 1620-1675," p. 104-109,
by Alden T. Vaughan
2. The Massachusetts Bay Colony was founded in the late 1620s, by Puritans who received a royal charter in 1629. John Winthrop was a leader of the colony, and governor off and on.
3. Especially along the Eastern seaboard, the view that the Indians objected to Europeans taking their land is a misunderstanding of the concept of land ownership. Indians were largely nomadic, and where they stopped was 'their land'....for the moment.
They laughed at the whites paying them for land.
a. "We could say that all conflicts between European settlers in America and American Indians were about land. The Indians had it; the Europeans wanted it. In many cases, Europeans simply took what they wanted. In most of British North America, though, settlers actually purchased land from natives. You might think that buying land rather than taking it would prevent conflict. But because Europeans and American Indians had very different ideas about what it meant to buy and to “own” land, these deals actually could cause as much conflict as they prevented.
The traditional view of European-Indian land deals is that Europeans tricked the Indians, who failed to understand the consequences of their actions. In fact, though, Indians often provedsavvynegotiators, and most European settlers understood far less about Indian ideas of land ownership than the Indians understood about theirs."
Who owns the land - North Carolina Digital History
b. "The implications for the Indian question are straightforward. Namely: In the extremely unlikely event that any particular Indian can show that he personally is the rightful heir of a particular Indian who was wrongfully dispossessed of a particular piece of property, the current occupants should hand him the keys to his birthright and vacate the premises. Otherwise the current occupants have the morally strongest claim to their property, and the status quo should continue. Anything more is just the doctrine of collective guilt masquerading as a defense of property rights."
Do Indians Rightfully Own America Bryan Caplan EconLog Library of Economics and Liberty
c. "One popular history of Manhattan notes that the Canarsie Indians "dwelt on Long Island, merely trading on Manhattan, and their trickery [in selling what they didn't possess to the Dutch] made it necessary for the white man to buy part of the island over again from the tribes living near Washington Heights. Still more crafty were the Raritans of [Staten Island], for the records show that Staten Island was sold by these Indians no less than six times."
The Straight Dope How much would the 24 paid for Manhattan be worth in today s money
d. Nor was available land a problem sinced the Puritans readily purchased it from the Indians, as confident as Virginians about their right to do so. (McDougall, Op. Cit.)
John Winthrop, Puritan and early governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, wrote:
".… And for the Natives in New England they inclose noe land neither have any settled habitation nor any tame cattle to improve the land by, & soe have noe other but a naturall right to those countries Soe as if wee leave them sufficient for their use wee may lawfully take the rest, there being more than enough for them & us."
Winthrop Papers, Volume V, 1645–1649. Edited byAllyn B. Forbes.
From kings of the American plains to piles of sun-bleached bones How mass slaughter by hunters nearly wiped out the buffalo Daily Mail Online
Now to deal with the stupidity of the Left, exemplified by their romanticized version of the American Indian.
After slapping you around, educating you may be my second best enjoyment.
The Indians were the destroyers of the buffalo ....
1. "According to the myth of the noble eco-savage, indigenous peoples live in such a sympathetic relationship with the eco system that they only kill for their immediate needs, and never on a scale likely to drive species to extinction.... In fact, these ‘cultural mechanisms’ exist primarily in the minds of Western environmentalists.
It is difficult to find any evidence of them amongst the tribal peoples, either now or in the past.... The aim was to kill as much as possible as quickly as possible, with the minimum risk to the hunter. There was no concern for conserving future stocks, nor for taking only as much as was necessary to meet present needs."
Whelan, "Wild in the Woods: The Myth of the Noble Eco-Savage"
A favorite Indian device was the ‘jump’, which meantstampeding herds of animalsover a cliff, so that the fall would kill them, described in "Playing God in Yellowstone," by Alston Chase.
"The Vore buffalo jump site in Wyoming...was used five times between 1550 and 1690, and holds the remains of 20,000 buffalo. That means 4,000 or more buffalo were killed each time the jump was used. Other buffalo jumps in the West display the remains of as many as 300,000 buffalo. These sites were so numerous, in fact, and held such large deposits of bone, that for many years they were mined as a source of phosphorus for fertilizer!"
Frison, G.C., "Prehistoric Hunters of the High Plains," pp.239-44
Large amounts of meat were left to rot and herds of animals were decimated, and sometimes driven to local extinction. Buffalo and antelope traps killed so many that it took the herds decades to recover.
And so...as the sun sets over this mysterious land, we say good-bye to the 'Noble Savage,' who is too busy to say good-bye.....
...he's busy burning down forests, and destroying every animal he can find.
That's a creepy way of justifying genocide.
Answering only yes or no,
was the bison in danger of extinction before the Europeans had begun to populate North America?
No! But history revised by arrogant asshole like PC hope to convince the dumber members of our society that this is so
I'm regularly shocked to find fools like you who have accepted the indoctrination, and complain that those of us with the research on our side are the dumb ones.
Why haven't you quoted anything that I've posted and indicated where it is in error?
Because it is linked, sourced, and supported.....and not in error.
The Indians slew every animal they could...and left the majority of the carcasses to rot.
Buffalo were the least of their victims.
Watch me rip you a new one AGAIN:
The extinction of the megafauna coincides with the time the first tribes inhabited the continent.
1. "Saber-toothed cats, American lions, woolly mammoths andother giant creaturesonce roamed across the American landscape. However, at the end of the late Pleistocene about 12,000 years ago, these "megafauna" went extinct, a die-off called the Quaternary extinction."
Starvation Didn t Wipe Out Sabertooth Cats
2. "Prevailing ideas point to all Native Americans descending from ancient Siberians who moved across the Beringia land bridge between Asia and North America between 26,000 and 18,000 years ago. As time wore on, the thinking goes, these people spread southward and gave rise to the Native American populations encountered by European settlers centuries ago.
:History Travel Arts Science People Places Smithsonian
3. No matter the animal....primitives everywhere found ways to kill them.
a. " When the Aborigines arrived in Australia the fauna ‘included a large variety of monotremes and marsupials, including ‘giant’ forms of macropodids (kangaroos and related species).Within 15,000 years all were extinct."
Alvard, M.S., ‘Conservation by Native Peoples: Prey Choice in a Depleted Habitat’, Human Nature, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1994, pp.127-154, citing Horton, J., 'Red Kangaroos: Last of the Australian Megafauna' in Martin, P., and Klein, R., (eds.) Quartenary Extinctions, Tuscon: University and Murray, P., 'Extinctions Down Under: A Bestiary of Extinct Australian Late Pleistocene Monotremes and Marsupials, in Martin, P. and Klein, R.
b. "The ‘prime peoples’ of Madagascar hunted several species of giant lemurs to extinction."
Dewar, R., 'Extinctions in Madagascar: The Loss of the Subfossil Fauna’
Know what "extinction" means???? It refers to your intellect.
c. "The arrival of the Maoris in New Zealand was quickly followed by the extinction of 34 species of birds."
Alvard, M.S., Op.Cit
c. As Matt Ridley puts it, ‘the first Maoris sat down andate their way through all twelve species of the giant moa birds’, leaving about a third of the meat to rot, and entire ovens stuffed with roast haunches unopened, so plentiful was the initial supply.
Ridley, M., "The Origins of Virtue," p.219
4. Peter Martin developed what has become known asthe ‘Overkill Hypothesis’to explainthe disappearance of large number of species - particularly mammal species - over the relatively short time-span of a few thousand years following the arrival of humans on the different continents.He argued that, where animals had plenty of time to get used to humans, as in Europe and Africa where homo sapiens first appeared, they learned to be cautious.
It was the arrival of man in Australia and America which was particularly devastating as the animals did not know what to expect and provided easy targets. North America lost 73 per cent of its large mammalian species, South America 79 per cent, Australia 86 per cent, but Africa only 14 per cent.
Peter Ward, "The End of Evolution: Dinosaurs, Mass Extinction and Biodiversity," p. 202.
AGAIN: linked, sourced, supported.
Get it, you moron????
Let me repeat the question:
Answering only yes or no,
was the bison in danger of extinction before the Europeans had begun to populate North America?
NYcarbineer
Diamond Member
PC has to be trained to debate.
NYcarbineer
Diamond Member
Answering only yes or no,
was the bison in danger of extinction before the Europeans had begun to populate North America?
Since your silence is good enough to take as being the answer 'No',
why did you lie about this? Why will you continue to lie about this?
PoliticalChic
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #59
You are clearly a "spherical imbecile" because you are an "imbecile" any way you are observed.
PoliticalChic
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #60
Next time you go to a mind reader try and remember that you are entitled to a substantial discount.
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