Im going to take a contreversial stand.

[Shogun]

Do we get to look at history with that question or is it more convenient to ignore the majority of western civ?

Indeed, How many muslims get away with marginalizing jews or christians after having a nation carved out of an indegenous population. You can make whatever excuses for the OT that you want to, those that read the koran are just as capable.

BUT, let me just point out how biased is your observation considering which side you identify with. THAT, is why it's imortant to circumvent the ethnocentrism filter.

After all.. YOU can demnize the koran but when I remind you of how bloody the first half of the bible is all of a sudden the excuses come out. Ill ask again and spare me the excuses:

How much did the roving band of Moses's people pay for their place in Canaan? Jericho? Being egyptian slaves doesn't give a people the right to invade and TAKE what they think a burning bush told them was theirs. You might take a step back and be a little objective or it won't be too hard to pick apart your same arguements.


regardless of the new covenant... it is STILL your bible.

 

[AllieBaba]

That's right. But your obsession with ethnocentrism (i.e., gobbledygook) is wearing thin. It's something you pull out, rather than actually debating the facts.

The fact is, what I've said is true. Muslims martyr Christians every day, and not because they are at war. It's a personal vendetta held by individual Muslims against the Christian (and Jewish) world, and fueled by their Koran. Which is why it's so wide-spread.

Christians decry acts of senseless violence, and the killing of innocents. Muslims justify them. Even the friendly Muslim shopkeeper on the corner.

There is absolutely nothing in the OT, even, which comes close to the base evil of the Koran. While there are laws which include harsh punishments, there are no general admonitions to the people of God to go out and kill those of other religions, simply because they are of a different religion. There are harsh punishments for digressions which can cause severe social strife in a nomadic and vulnerable society whose survival depends upon being united as one.

I would like to point out at this time that if the Hebrews had heeded God's call to completely wipe out certain populations, we would have no conflict in the Middle East at this time. But then, if Eve hadn't listened to the serpent, we'd still be in the garden.

 

[Shogun]

That's right. But your obsession with ethnocentrism (i.e., gobbledygook) is wearing thin. It's something you pull out, rather than actually debating the facts.

The fact is, what I've said is true. Muslims martyr Christians every day, and not because they are at war. It's a personal vendetta held by individual Muslims against the Christian (and Jewish) world, and fueled by their Koran. Which is why it's so wide-spread.

Christians decry acts of senseless violence, and the killing of innocents. Muslims justify them. Even the friendly Muslim shopkeeper on the corner.

There is absolutely nothing in the OT, even, which comes close to the base evil of the Koran. While there are laws which include harsh punishments, there are no general admonitions to the people of God to go out and kill those of other religions, simply because they are of a different religion. There are harsh punishments for digressions which can cause severe social strife in a nomadic and vulnerable society whose survival depends upon being united as one.

I would like to point out at this time that if the Hebrews had heeded God's call to completely wipe out certain populations, we would have no conflict in the Middle East at this time. But then, if Eve hadn't listened to the serpent, we'd still be in the garden.

What you call FACT is merely your opinion wrapped inside your own perspective. Sorry, but your opinon is not any kind of standard. If you don't want to acknowledge how your ethnocentrism INFLUENCES your opinion then so be it. You are not debating facts. YOU are debating opinon. It's just like your OPINION about homosexuality being a behavioural norm; you take a look at what you see outside your own window and PROJECT that to mean more than it really does. I assure you that the term ETHNOCENTRISM is more relevant to this discussion than gobbledygook. Pretending otherwise is just the latest silly attempt to ignore the reality of things like pennicilin and gravity.


Your view of anything non christian or non jew is appalling. You speak of muslims murdering chritians and jews but then totally ignore how THEY might see the creation of israel and then being marginalized by jews who are enabled by rationalizing christians. I garentee that you would be screaming lionfood if YOU were being treated like muslims in palestine right now.. But, since you can shrug your shoulders and blame the koran while ignoring the history of chritisanity and the OT it's all ok. You say every day yet you ignore what EVERY DAY looks like for a pal in israel. Indeed, tell me about how ethnocentrism is just gobbledgook again. Why don't you go ahead and blame the koran for violence and ignore the burning bush reality of Canaan, Jericho and NOW palestine. I bet your religious affiliation has NOTHING to do with the direction your finger is pointing.. nope.. CANt be.


Christians decry acts of senseless violence, and the killing of innocents. Muslims justify them. Even the friendly Muslim shopkeeper on the corner.


Can I generalize like that against your affiliation or would that, all of a sudden, be against the rules? CHristians are capable is sin just like any other human. Pretending that christians are wholly benevolent is the biggest joke I've heard all day. Indeed, you don't seem to care about innocent lives behind the zionist aparthied wall.. Do they not count somehow? With that statement you just proved my point about your biased opinion masquerading as "fact". You DONT justify the marginalization of pals for the sake of Israel? Of course you do. I've just poked the first hole in the hull of your arguement.


There is absolutely nothing in the OT, even, which comes close to the base evil of the Koran. While there are laws which include harsh punishments, there are no general admonitions to the people of God to go out and kill those of other religions, simply because they are of a different religion. There are harsh punishments for digressions which can cause severe social strife in a nomadic and vulnerable society whose survival depends upon being united as one.


HA!

ok, Elisha.. Care to remind me what the punishment for making fun of bald jewish prophets is again? KIDS even, right? Jericho? What the fuck did JERICHO do to the jews besides happen to be on land that was about to be raided? You talk about EVIL as if others don't see what you represent as EVIL. Do you think you have a monopoly on using that label? I assure you, you don't. But, keep proving my point about how your obvious ethnocentricity clouds your ability to see anything from any angle besides your own perspective..

yea.. the OT is a fucking g rated movie but the koran.. THATS the evil.. sure, Abbie.. sure.

Please, ask me for more examples from the OT.. You can make as many excuses for the violence and hatred for non-jews but I enjoy reminding people like you of the shit found in that portion of the bible.

PLEASE ask for more... I've got some real winners for you.


I would like to point out at this time that if the Hebrews had heeded God's call to completely wipe out certain populations, we would have no conflict in the Middle East at this time. But then, if Eve hadn't listened to the serpent, we'd still be in the garden.


Hey, thanks for admitting that the burning bush god of the hebrews was just as violent, and some would call EVIL, as the god of the koran. ironically, you all three share the same god in the first place. I know that's going to rub you the wrong way but the don't call em Abrahamic religions for nothing. It cracks me up to see jews and christians so opposed to the religion of the muslims. First, your history leaves nothing to brag about, your current ability to ignore pals makes it as true today and it ever was during the crusades OR the inquisition. Second, You take the word Allah as being equivilent to "jesus" when it means nothing more than GOD - which is invoking the same FATHER as you worship and G-D that the jews think uses firey bushes like cell phones. Lastly, Spare me the hero worship. Washington did not chop down a cherry tree, Pharoes were not gods and ancient hebrews were no more danger of wiping out western civilization than any other VIOLENT EVIL culture springing up at the time.


Again, PLEASE ask me for more EVIL VIOLENCE from the OT.. something about raping enemy virgins? ringing a bell?

 

[AllieBaba]

You need to look up the difference between fact and opinion. It's not my opinion that Christians are killed daily for nothing more than being Christian. It's a fact. It's not my opinion that homosexuality isn't hardwired. It's a fact.

Those two points aside, you obviously have some deep seated issues with Christianity. That's fine, but you're allowing it to influence your reason.

The fact is, the Koran advocates brutality, murder and zero accountability when it comes to murdering infidels and innocents. It may be your opinion that the Bible is just as bad, but when you put the two side by side, the references prove the point. The Christian Bible does not advocate killing, torture, or intolerance. Nowhere does the Bible tell us to go out and murder, nor does it say that if we do murder it's actually God doing the murdering.

These are facts, not opinions. And opinion would be agreeing that one or the other is better, or worse. But the differences are real, not just in someone's head. And all your panicked shrieking won't change that.

 

[jillian]

You need to look up the difference between fact and opinion. It's not my opinion that Christians are killed daily for nothing more than being Christian.

Really? Where would that be?

It's not my opinion that homosexuality isn't hardwired. It's a fact.

Errrr... actually, it isn't. There may or may not be multiple causative factors for homosexuality. Either nature or some combination of nurture AND nature. But in any event, it IS hard-wired. Unless you get your scientific "facts" from right wing gay-bashing sites.

As for panicked shrieking... I think that would be you. Mellow out. Nothing worse than someone new who's also rabid.

 

[AllieBaba]

Really? Where would that be?



Errrr... actually, it isn't. There may or may not be multiple causative factors for homosexuality. Either nature or some combination of nurture AND nature. But in any event, it IS hard-wired. Unless you get your scientific "facts" from right wing gay-bashing sites.

As for panicked shrieking... I think that would be you. Mellow out. Nothing worse than someone new who's also rabid.

Well, the Department of Neurological Sciences in Canada, the Department of Genetics at Stanford, Boston University Psych Prof. Dr. Richard Pillard, the University of Illinois at Chicago (Brian Mustanski) and the Human Genome Progrect all disagree with you.

I'm mellow. I don't go for hysterical yucking, insults, or theatrics. I prefer allowing the proof to talk.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

I have a very good friend online who is muslim.

met a few muslims in real life and talked to some of them.

Its a tough issue to deal with.

martin...have you ever known a muslim, or met a muslim, or even SEEN a real live muslim up close and personal?

 

[Doug]

For the sake of the argument about the nature of homosexuality, let's agree to confine the discussion to (1) male homosexuality and (2) genuine homosexuality, i.e. not the sort of casual homo-eroticism the classical Greek ruling class practiced, nor the sort of thing that goes on in prisons.

By a "genuine" male homosexual I mean someone who has no interest in women, sexually. If kind of person that, if he were permanently surrounded by women and deprived of all male company, their virtue would be in no danger from him.

Now has this person made a "choice" to be that way?

It seems extremely unlikely to me.

A choice is when you are tempted to do something, and decide to do it, or refrain.

Are any of your heterosexual males here tempted to have a homosexual fling? Adultery, on the other hand ....

I doubt that very much. We don't have to make a choice, with respect to being gay. Quite the opposite, I suspect: the very idea turns our stomachs. (I cannot even bear to see two men kissing, which the trendy BBC pushes into our faces more and more now. I have to look away, or switch channels.)

When we are talking sexual behavior, we are talking, ultimately, biology.

Our genes are continually whispering to us, "Replicate us, replicate us!" -- for males and females, obeying their commands requries very different strategies.

For males, it works out as a pretty indiscriminate drive to bed every female in sight. Of course, depending on how well we have been socialized, we can usually succeed in dissembling about our desires, and concealing our urgent lust behind various social smokescreens.

But its there and every man knows it's there. (I hope I am not giving away any information to the Enemy by saying this. Ladies: ignore the previous nonsense: we love you for your minds. And when we marry you, we lose all interest in other women. Promise.)

A very high proportion of human customs and institutions and laws have evolved to try to tame the male sexual drive: to make us "choose" to behave in such a way that we don't wreck society.

Left completely unmediated, the male sex drive leads to endless jealousy and violence and prevents the sort of social solidarity, mutual trust, and voluntary hierarchy that allows civilizations to be built.

We can see in various places, even in the US, the kind of social chaos that results when those institutions -- the family first of all -- begin to decay.

Now with homosexuals, something has gone wrong. Not "morally" wrong, but wrong from nature's viewpoint. Wrong as it has with people who are a-sexual.

But that's the nature of DNA -- it's mechanism of reproduction doesn't work perfectly every time, by a long chalk. (That's why there are so many early-stage, not-even-noticed miscarriages in pregnancies.)

So it's not too surprising that we see some deviation from perfect -- from the reproduction point of view -- behavior. Or it may not be DNA at all, directly, but some biochemical insult in the womb, the same thing that may cause Asperger's syndrome, or asthma. We don't know a lot yet. (The confident references to the Stanford Dept of Neurology or whatever are pure bluff, and not very aptly done either: Jillian is obviously capable of doing some internet research if she wants to.)

Now the real conservative quarrel with homosexuality should not be a "moral" one at all. All we should properly care about is the preservation of the social institutions that have gotten us where we are, and which seem to have workd pretty well so far. So long as those are not threatened, what should we care what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms?

"Normalizing" homosexuality by not treating homosexuals like pariahs is not going to make one single straight male decide that he wants to ... In fact, our genes are probably trying to tell us to encourage it, since it shrinks the pool of our competitors. Yeah, go play with each other guys, and leave the ladies to us. (Although another part of our mind is saying: Deserters! Running away from the war between the sexes! Come back and fight, you cowards!)

 

[Diuretic]

I'm okay with gays - less competition

 

[maineman]

I have a very good friend online who is muslim.

met a few muslims in real life and talked to some of them.

Its a tough issue to deal with.

and did any of them want to kill you?

 

[Shogun]

You need to look up the difference between fact and opinion. It's not my opinion that Christians are killed daily for nothing more than being Christian. It's a fact. It's not my opinion that homosexuality isn't hardwired. It's a fact.

Those two points aside, you obviously have some deep seated issues with Christianity. That's fine, but you're allowing it to influence your reason.

The fact is, the Koran advocates brutality, murder and zero accountability when it comes to murdering infidels and innocents. It may be your opinion that the Bible is just as bad, but when you put the two side by side, the references prove the point. The Christian Bible does not advocate killing, torture, or intolerance. Nowhere does the Bible tell us to go out and murder, nor does it say that if we do murder it's actually God doing the murdering.

These are facts, not opinions. And opinion would be agreeing that one or the other is better, or worse. But the differences are real, not just in someone's head. And all your panicked shrieking won't change that.

You said you like to use PROOF?


Then, by all means... lay it on me, baby.. SHOW ME your proof beyond name dropping that A) muslims are out killing christians every day and B) homosexuality is a choice. I'll wait...

It's IRONIC that you seem to think IM the one letting my beliefs seep into my logic, Allie.. I don't have a problem with christianity at all.. just like the rest of America who is not treating you like lionfood. What Im betting you PERCIEVE as such is how Im not rolling over and letting you insist things are true when they are not. Welcome to debate. In case you didn't know before, THIS doesn't count as hatred towards christians any more than not allowing christians to prothletise in public schools is like treating you as lionfood. But, I guess if that's the strawman you want to duck behind....


I notice that you didn't ask me to post examples from the OT that show it's similar brutality against non-jews with land? Why is that? Did you not want to actually have to compare the words of the OT with the words of the koran? No, it is YOUR OPINION that the koran is more brutal.

Just a taste...

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [a] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.


If you want more then please ask...

what?

ONE MORE? ok...

Judges 21:10-24
0 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 "This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin." 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.



So, I've posted MY evidence lets see you post YOURS instead of confusing your opinion as fact. BRUTALITY? MURDER? I guess it helps to have actually read the thing. I've just proved that it does, in fact, consist of the very things you insisted it does not... Tell me, WHICH OF US seems to be letting their opinions cloud their reason, again?

 

[bush lover]

The Moslems seem very ill at ease with their religion, with so many different sects and interpretations. I invite them to convert to the true religion of Jesus Christ our Savior, Son of God. This religion is the Roman Catholic Church, which has 1.3 billion practitioners. Moslems who embrace Jesus as their Savior will find an internal and external peace they will never find in their current religion.