If You Want to Know the Truth About Charter Schools, Follow the Money to the..

[Disir]

Not necessarily.

The demographic comparisons in the 2009 report indicated that charter schools serve a smaller
proportion of special education students than the traditional public school sector. As we have reported
in recent state studies, in some cases this is a deliberate and coordinated strategy with local districts
that is based on a shared goal of meeting students’ needs in the best way possible.
In addition to strategic collaboration, anecdotal evidence suggests that the two sectors may differ in their criteria for referring students for formal special education services.
CREDO is pursuing further research in this area.
Regardless of the proportion of special education students being served, the question remains whether charter schools are strengthening their ability to meet the diverse needs of this student group.
As discussed in the 2009 report, comparing student growth for special education students is difficult.
In many cases, there are small numbers of students with special education needs who also take the
regular state test instead of an alternate assessment. Because we must use the regular state test
results, students with different special education designations are pooled together to enable reliable
computations of learning impacts. But the aggregation itself means that there is large variation in
underlying conditions. It is no surprise, then, that the results are highly sensitive to changes in just a
few students and produce estimates of average learning that have wide distributions around
them.

http://credo.stanford.edu/documents/NCSS 2013 Final Draft.pdf

 

[Papageorgio]

n 2010 at age 17, Al Tonyo dropped out of a vocational high school in Cleveland but still wanted a diploma.

So, he enrolled at Life Skills High School of Cleveland, one of 77 publicly funded Ohio charter schools that markets itself as a flexible alternative to traditional public schools.

Then, he dropped out again.

Tonyo was no exception.

Charter schools such as Life Skills, operated by Akron-based White Hat Management and targeting dropouts, are sending Ohio spinning off in the wrong direction. Dropout rates nationally are on the decline, but Ohio’s rate is on the rise.

Granted, some dropout charter schools graduate nearly half of their students on time, a notable feat considering students enter these programs at least a year behind their peers in traditional high schools.

But that’s not the norm.

Many dropout charter schools, including White Hat’s chain of Life Skills centers, consistently report single-digit graduation rates. Over the course of last school year, more students dropped out of Life Skills than attended on the average day.

Together, they are dragging down the state’s overall rate.

After charter schools received the largest funding boosts per pupil in the most recent state budget, state legislators are toying with the idea of giving them more money to fix Ohio’s dropout problem at a time when charter schools are reporting record-high dropout rates.

Unmotivated students

“My parents had high hopes for me,” Tonyo, now 22, said. “But I wasn’t able to grasp the bigger picture.”

Tonyo said he lacked motivation, and it didn’t help to be surrounded by fellow dropouts who shared his lack of enthusiasm.

“It was a whole big negative experience. I didn’t even want to be there,” he said of his time at Life Skills.

Sixteen years ago, drop-out recovery charter schools didn’t exist. Now they enroll roughly 14,000 teenagers and young adults, mostly in cities with high poverty and unemployment.

These students may be prone to dropping out. But charter schools especially struggle to retain and graduate them.

The state counts a dropout as an event, not as a person. If one student drops out three times in one year, that is three dropouts. It happens, a lot.

In the 2012-13 school year, more than 5,300 dropouts — a quarter of all Ohio dropouts that year — attended one of two online charter schools: the Electronic Classroom of Tomorrow or Ohio Virtual Academy. Collectively, these two charter schools have a dropout rate 45 times higher than traditional public schools, and 10 times higher than the state’s eight largest city school districts.

Another 6,829 students *— about a third of all Ohio dropouts — attended charter schools designed specifically for dropouts, among them Invictus and Life Skills. Last year, these dropout charter schools enrolled one percent of Ohio’s public school students but accounted for roughly the same number of dropout events as did public district schools, which enrolled 91 percent of Ohio’s students.

Ohio?s charter school dropouts soar, push state in opposite direction of U.S. - Local - Ohio

That free market? It ain't free.

So an unmotivated student, that dropped out of public school, dropped out of charter school? So drop outs drop out.

Because sweetie, that was the primary objective of those charter schools and it isn't just one.

It seems to be the objective of public schools.


Sent from my iPad using an Android.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Are the taxpayers paying for these charter schools? If so, you agree with me that education is important for our society and we must invest in it. Thank you.

 

[Disir]

So an unmotivated student, that dropped out of public school, dropped out of charter school? So drop outs drop out.

Because sweetie, that was the primary objective of those charter schools and it isn't just one.

It seems to be the objective of public schools.


Sent from my iPad using an Android.

Therefore?

 

[Andylusion]

Because sweetie, that was the primary objective of those charter schools and it isn't just one.

It seems to be the objective of public schools.


Sent from my iPad using an Android.

Therefore?

I went to an upper middle class school system. We had a chic there who was on drugs, and got knocked up twice. She would come to school, show up for 4 months, and drop out. Start the next year, show up for 5 months, and drop out. She did this for FOUR full years, and then she dropped out forever.

I can't even imagine how much money the public schools wasted on that one girl.

People like that drag down the good students. I've seen it over and over and over.

So.... YES, I want the Charter school kicking those people out. I want them to encourage bad students to leave.

The problem with you people on the left is, you think that if we just somehow 'keep them in school', that magically they'll suddenly become good students. That's entirely false. What happens is, they stay bad students, and cause other students to become bad students.

And by the way, this is why I am totally in favor of pay-for-service schools, like Chile has.

The only reason that chic could act that way for FOUR years, is because it didn't cost her, or her parents, or her husband, or boyfriend, a penny to do that.

If she was paying that bill, she would not be dropping out every year. But because it cost her nothing to screw over the tax payers.... well then she can do that over and over, and think nothing of it.

 

[80zephyr]

Why don't we look at the results before we get all pissy about what you think the purpose is.

The kids are getting a better education.

Excellent! It's working!

We've done this before. You have to pull your head out first.

Want to know the truth about public schools? Tell me why teachers in public schools chose to send their kids to private schools at a greater rate than the general population?

Nothing you can post can say more to me than that one fact.

Mark

 

[Disir]

Why don't we look at the results before we get all pissy about what you think the purpose is.

The kids are getting a better education.

Excellent! It's working!

We've done this before. You have to pull your head out first.

Want to know the truth about public schools? Tell me why teachers in public schools chose to send their kids to private schools at a greater rate than the general population?

Nothing you can post can say more to me than that one fact.

Mark

You're going to need to back that up.

 

[Disir]

It seems to be the objective of public schools.


Sent from my iPad using an Android.

Therefore?

I went to an upper middle class school system. We had a chic there who was on drugs, and got knocked up twice. She would come to school, show up for 4 months, and drop out. Start the next year, show up for 5 months, and drop out. She did this for FOUR full years, and then she dropped out forever.

I can't even imagine how much money the public schools wasted on that one girl.

People like that drag down the good students. I've seen it over and over and over.

So.... YES, I want the Charter school kicking those people out. I want them to encourage bad students to leave.

The problem with you people on the left is, you think that if we just somehow 'keep them in school', that magically they'll suddenly become good students. That's entirely false. What happens is, they stay bad students, and cause other students to become bad students.

And by the way, this is why I am totally in favor of pay-for-service schools, like Chile has.

The only reason that chic could act that way for FOUR years, is because it didn't cost her, or her parents, or her husband, or boyfriend, a penny to do that.

If she was paying that bill, she would not be dropping out every year. But because it cost her nothing to screw over the tax payers.... well then she can do that over and over, and think nothing of it.

The charter school that we were discussing above was created specifically for those students that drop out. That was it's purpose.

Further, we are not in the habit of devising educational policies based on this one time at band camp scenes.

 

[Andylusion]

Therefore?

I went to an upper middle class school system. We had a chic there who was on drugs, and got knocked up twice. She would come to school, show up for 4 months, and drop out. Start the next year, show up for 5 months, and drop out. She did this for FOUR full years, and then she dropped out forever.

I can't even imagine how much money the public schools wasted on that one girl.

People like that drag down the good students. I've seen it over and over and over.

So.... YES, I want the Charter school kicking those people out. I want them to encourage bad students to leave.

The problem with you people on the left is, you think that if we just somehow 'keep them in school', that magically they'll suddenly become good students. That's entirely false. What happens is, they stay bad students, and cause other students to become bad students.

And by the way, this is why I am totally in favor of pay-for-service schools, like Chile has.

The only reason that chic could act that way for FOUR years, is because it didn't cost her, or her parents, or her husband, or boyfriend, a penny to do that.

If she was paying that bill, she would not be dropping out every year. But because it cost her nothing to screw over the tax payers.... well then she can do that over and over, and think nothing of it.

The charter school that we were discussing above was created specifically for those students that drop out. That was it's purpose.

Further, we are not in the habit of devising educational policies based on this one time at band camp scenes.

....lady... when I was visiting one of the other public schools, I had a guy in 11th grade, ask me how to do division problem, on a calculator. It was a basic math problem. 5 divided by 2.

How much money was wasted on that guy?

I want people like that kicked out. He wasn't a dumb guy either. He simply didn't care. And when you waste 90% of the class time, helping the 11th grader who doesn't know how to work a calculator, because he doesn't care.

You don't seem to grasp, that those kids hold the entire class... the whole school down.

 

[80zephyr]

We've done this before. You have to pull your head out first.

Want to know the truth about public schools? Tell me why teachers in public schools chose to send their kids to private schools at a greater rate than the general population?

Nothing you can post can say more to me than that one fact.

Mark

You're going to need to back that up.

I thought you'd never ask.

Where Do Public School Teachers Send Own Kids? | RealClearPolitics

From the link:

Guy walks into a restaurant. Says to the waitress, "I'd like some scrambled eggs and some kind words." She brings the eggs. The guy smiles, "Now how about the kind words?" Waitress whispers, "Don't eat the eggs."

This brings us to the fact that urban public school teachers are about two times more likely than non-teachers to send their own children to private schools. In other words, many public school teachers whisper to parents, "Don't eat the eggs."

About 11 percent of all parents -- nationwide, rural and urban -- send their children to private schools. The numbers are much higher in urban areas. One study found that in Philadelphia a staggering 44 percent of public school teachers send their own kids to private schools. In Cincinnati and Chicago, 41 and 39 percent of public school teachers, respectively, pay for a private school education for their children. In Rochester, New York, it's 38 percent. In Baltimore it's 35 percent, San Francisco is 34 percent and New York-Northeastern New Jersey is 33 percent. In Los Angeles nearly 25 percent of public school teachers send their kids to private school versus 16 percent of Angelenos who do so.


Mark

 

[jasonnfree]

Want to know the truth about public schools? Tell me why teachers in public schools chose to send their kids to private schools at a greater rate than the general population?

Nothing you can post can say more to me than that one fact.

Mark

You're going to need to back that up.

I thought you'd never ask.

Where Do Public School Teachers Send Own Kids? | RealClearPolitics

From the link:

Guy walks into a restaurant. Says to the waitress, "I'd like some scrambled eggs and some kind words." She brings the eggs. The guy smiles, "Now how about the kind words?" Waitress whispers, "Don't eat the eggs."

This brings us to the fact that urban public school teachers are about two times more likely than non-teachers to send their own children to private schools. In other words, many public school teachers whisper to parents, "Don't eat the eggs."

About 11 percent of all parents -- nationwide, rural and urban -- send their children to private schools. The numbers are much higher in urban areas. One study found that in Philadelphia a staggering 44 percent of public school teachers send their own kids to private schools. In Cincinnati and Chicago, 41 and 39 percent of public school teachers, respectively, pay for a private school education for their children. In Rochester, New York, it's 38 percent. In Baltimore it's 35 percent, San Francisco is 34 percent and New York-Northeastern New Jersey is 33 percent. In Los Angeles nearly 25 percent of public school teachers send their kids to private school versus 16 percent of Angelenos who do so.


Mark

It could be at least partly because public schools have to take everybody. Trouble makers, gang bangers, etc. Private schools don't have to. From what I've been reading, charter schools can be selective also.

 

[Andylusion]

You're going to need to back that up.

I thought you'd never ask.

Where Do Public School Teachers Send Own Kids? | RealClearPolitics

From the link:

Guy walks into a restaurant. Says to the waitress, "I'd like some scrambled eggs and some kind words." She brings the eggs. The guy smiles, "Now how about the kind words?" Waitress whispers, "Don't eat the eggs."

This brings us to the fact that urban public school teachers are about two times more likely than non-teachers to send their own children to private schools. In other words, many public school teachers whisper to parents, "Don't eat the eggs."

About 11 percent of all parents -- nationwide, rural and urban -- send their children to private schools. The numbers are much higher in urban areas. One study found that in Philadelphia a staggering 44 percent of public school teachers send their own kids to private schools. In Cincinnati and Chicago, 41 and 39 percent of public school teachers, respectively, pay for a private school education for their children. In Rochester, New York, it's 38 percent. In Baltimore it's 35 percent, San Francisco is 34 percent and New York-Northeastern New Jersey is 33 percent. In Los Angeles nearly 25 percent of public school teachers send their kids to private school versus 16 percent of Angelenos who do so.


Mark

It could be at least partly because public schools have to take everybody. Trouble makers, gang bangers, etc. Private schools don't have to. From what I've been reading, charter schools can be selective also.

That's part of our point. Public schools were not always that way. And ironically they were better quality, when they could turn away terrible kids.

Every time you move more towards a market system, the better your results always are.

Getting rid of terrible students, is exactly one of the reasons you end up with better results.

 

[Papageorgio]

Because sweetie, that was the primary objective of those charter schools and it isn't just one.

It seems to be the objective of public schools.


Sent from my iPad using an Android.

Therefore?

Therefore, on is not better than the other despite your BS.


Sent from my iPad using an Android.

 

[koshergrl]

Once again, charter schools have a larger percentage of poor and otherwise challenged children. They have a higher proportion of minority children. The "selective" lie is just that...a lie.

 

[Disir]

It seems to be the objective of public schools.


Sent from my iPad using an Android.

Therefore?

Therefore, on is not better than the other despite your BS.


Sent from my iPad using an Android.

The charter schools that we are discussing were created for that specific purpose.

 

[Disir]

It seems to be the objective of public schools.


Sent from my iPad using an Android.

Therefore?

I went to an upper middle class school system. We had a chic there who was on drugs, and got knocked up twice. She would come to school, show up for 4 months, and drop out. Start the next year, show up for 5 months, and drop out. She did this for FOUR full years, and then she dropped out forever.

I can't even imagine how much money the public schools wasted on that one girl.

People like that drag down the good students. I've seen it over and over and over.

So.... YES, I want the Charter school kicking those people out. I want them to encourage bad students to leave.

The problem with you people on the left is, you think that if we just somehow 'keep them in school', that magically they'll suddenly become good students. That's entirely false. What happens is, they stay bad students, and cause other students to become bad students.

And by the way, this is why I am totally in favor of pay-for-service schools, like Chile has.

The only reason that chic could act that way for FOUR years, is because it didn't cost her, or her parents, or her husband, or boyfriend, a penny to do that.

If she was paying that bill, she would not be dropping out every year. But because it cost her nothing to screw over the tax payers.... well then she can do that over and over, and think nothing of it.

Look I can drop anecdotes too. But, that isn't here nor there. So, I'm going to deal with the only part of your posts that are relevant.

You're attempting to create a system where only the wealthy can achieve an education. That we can't have.

Where implemented this works:
Great Performances . Educational Resources . Howard Gardner's Multiple Intelligences Theory . Overview | PBS

Every attempt to play free market fails. Big.

So, why would you utilize something that has a high failure rate instead of going with what works? The answer to that is that you have every intention of profiting from it. You can do that in the private sector not by destroying the public education system.

 

[Disir]

Want to know the truth about public schools? Tell me why teachers in public schools chose to send their kids to private schools at a greater rate than the general population?

Nothing you can post can say more to me than that one fact.

Mark

You're going to need to back that up.

I thought you'd never ask.

Where Do Public School Teachers Send Own Kids? | RealClearPolitics

From the link:

Guy walks into a restaurant. Says to the waitress, "I'd like some scrambled eggs and some kind words." She brings the eggs. The guy smiles, "Now how about the kind words?" Waitress whispers, "Don't eat the eggs."

This brings us to the fact that urban public school teachers are about two times more likely than non-teachers to send their own children to private schools. In other words, many public school teachers whisper to parents, "Don't eat the eggs."

About 11 percent of all parents -- nationwide, rural and urban -- send their children to private schools. The numbers are much higher in urban areas. One study found that in Philadelphia a staggering 44 percent of public school teachers send their own kids to private schools. In Cincinnati and Chicago, 41 and 39 percent of public school teachers, respectively, pay for a private school education for their children. In Rochester, New York, it's 38 percent. In Baltimore it's 35 percent, San Francisco is 34 percent and New York-Northeastern New Jersey is 33 percent. In Los Angeles nearly 25 percent of public school teachers send their kids to private school versus 16 percent of Angelenos who do so.


Mark

Mark, can you bring me the actual study?

I want to look at the questions of the survey. The institution that conducted the study is highly suspect.
TIA

 

[Andylusion]

You're going to need to back that up.

I thought you'd never ask.

Where Do Public School Teachers Send Own Kids? | RealClearPolitics

From the link:

Guy walks into a restaurant. Says to the waitress, "I'd like some scrambled eggs and some kind words." She brings the eggs. The guy smiles, "Now how about the kind words?" Waitress whispers, "Don't eat the eggs."

This brings us to the fact that urban public school teachers are about two times more likely than non-teachers to send their own children to private schools. In other words, many public school teachers whisper to parents, "Don't eat the eggs."

About 11 percent of all parents -- nationwide, rural and urban -- send their children to private schools. The numbers are much higher in urban areas. One study found that in Philadelphia a staggering 44 percent of public school teachers send their own kids to private schools. In Cincinnati and Chicago, 41 and 39 percent of public school teachers, respectively, pay for a private school education for their children. In Rochester, New York, it's 38 percent. In Baltimore it's 35 percent, San Francisco is 34 percent and New York-Northeastern New Jersey is 33 percent. In Los Angeles nearly 25 percent of public school teachers send their kids to private school versus 16 percent of Angelenos who do so.


Mark

Mark, can you bring me the actual study?

I want to look at the questions of the survey. The institution that conducted the study is highly suspect.
TIA

Public schools no place for teachers' kids - Washington Times

Michael Pons, spokesman for the National Education Association, the 2.7-million-member public school union, declined a request for comment on the study’s findings. The American Federation of Teachers also declined to comment.

Public school teachers told the Fordham Institute’s surveyors that private and religious schools impose greater discipline, achieve higher academic achievement and offer overall a better atmosphere.

I would think that if there was something fishy about the results of the survey, the NEA, school unions, and the AFT, would have commented on it. You would think that if there was counter evidence, they would have presented it.

edex.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/publication/pdfs/Fwd-1.1_7.pdf

If that doesn't work, punch in

Where Do Public School Teachers Send Their Kids to School?
By: Denis P. Doyle, Brian Diepold, and David A. DeSchryver

The source data for the report was the US Census of 2000. Interestingly, the 1980 Census showed a similar trend, but not nearly as statistically relevant. In other words, things have gotten worse, and more teachers are getting their kids out of the public school system.

 

[Andylusion]

Therefore?

I went to an upper middle class school system. We had a chic there who was on drugs, and got knocked up twice. She would come to school, show up for 4 months, and drop out. Start the next year, show up for 5 months, and drop out. She did this for FOUR full years, and then she dropped out forever.

I can't even imagine how much money the public schools wasted on that one girl.

People like that drag down the good students. I've seen it over and over and over.

So.... YES, I want the Charter school kicking those people out. I want them to encourage bad students to leave.

The problem with you people on the left is, you think that if we just somehow 'keep them in school', that magically they'll suddenly become good students. That's entirely false. What happens is, they stay bad students, and cause other students to become bad students.

And by the way, this is why I am totally in favor of pay-for-service schools, like Chile has.

The only reason that chic could act that way for FOUR years, is because it didn't cost her, or her parents, or her husband, or boyfriend, a penny to do that.

If she was paying that bill, she would not be dropping out every year. But because it cost her nothing to screw over the tax payers.... well then she can do that over and over, and think nothing of it.

Look I can drop anecdotes too. But, that isn't here nor there. So, I'm going to deal with the only part of your posts that are relevant.

You're attempting to create a system where only the wealthy can achieve an education. That we can't have.

Where implemented this works:
Great Performances . Educational Resources . Howard Gardner's Multiple Intelligences Theory . Overview | PBS

Every attempt to play free market fails. Big.

So, why would you utilize something that has a high failure rate instead of going with what works? The answer to that is that you have every intention of profiting from it. You can do that in the private sector not by destroying the public education system.

No it doesn't. Education in Nigeria has greatly increased, and even the poorest of people send their kids to private pay-for-service schools.

Chile has a pay for service school system, and they have the absolute best system in all of Latin America. Their kids are doing better than any other country with a free education.

Your claim simply doesn't match reality. In any other market, a Capitalist pay-for-service system, has always resulted in more availability to the least wealthy in our country.

Why didn't a free-market capitalist system result in only the wealthy having cable TV? Or Cell Phones? Or high speed internet? Or Automobiles? Or any number of thousands of things.

Why? Because selling goods a lower price, expands the market, thus generating more revenue.

Which plan is better?

Sell one single $100,000 car to one wealthy buyer.

Sell fifty thousand $20,000 cars to lower / middle class buyers.

Of course, you are going to earn a ton more catering to the larger market of the lower and middle class. Which is why we have the high standard of living we have, where the poorest people have automobiles, smart phones, high speed internet, cable TV and more.

Education, can be, and is, exactly the same in countries where the market is allowed to work. Someone will step in to fill that gap, and make a profit, while educating the lower and middle income earners in our country.

But *YOU* have to let that system work.

You really think they are better off, sending their kids to school for 11 years, and they still can't use a calculator?

 

[Disir]

The Childean model (Chicago School) failed.

See here:
The Failings of Chile?s Education System: Institutionalized Inequality and a Preference for the Affluent | Council on Hemispheric Affairs

Chile: The Most Pro-Market School System in the World, Part 1 | Diane Ravitch's blog

Chile: The Most Pro-Market School System in the World, Part 2 | Diane Ravitch's blog

Chile: The Most Pro-Market School System in the World, Part 3 | Diane Ravitch's blog

Mario Waissbluth's April 2014 piece:
Chile: Dismantling the Most Pro-Market Education System in the World | Diane Ravitch's blog


You can bullshit some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. Cuba has a better education system and a higher literacy rate.