If We Erase The Christian Basis Of Governance, Then What Do We Unleash?

[thereisnospoon]

I'm just curious when Right Wingers are going to listen to Jesus' admonition to help the poor, give up wealth and treat people the way you want to be treated.

Conservatives give to charity at a rate that is embarrassing to their liberal counterparts.

..while at the same time they preach that giving handouts to the poor makes them lazy and dependent.

And you have nothing in which to add, so you simply repeated yourself.

 

[thereisnospoon]

So if the subjugation of women is a theme found throughout the Bible, why does our government, our Constitution, our collective belief,

stand for equal rights for women?

One thing the Lord gave our species is the ability to reason.
Get it?

 

[Rikurzhen]

I'm hoping that this is a fun topic. A century ago G.K. Chesterton observed:

“The Declaration of Independence dogmatically bases all rights on the fact that God created all men equal; and it is right; for if they were not created equal, they were certainly evolved unequal. There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man.” ​

Christians have this quaint belief that God created Adam and Eve and that all of mankind is equal in the eyes of God. A King and a Pauper shall be judged equally by God once in Heaven. This God inspired notion has informed our governing philosophy ever since we began as a nation.

The evidence of reality however is abundantly clear that we are not all made equal, so what higher principle can we turn to to guide us and prevent us from a utilitarian reform of our laws and customs which recognizes and enshrines what the real world is SCREAMING at us - we are not all equal?

We have past experiments where legislatures have tried to impose the will of man over reality, such as when the Indiana Legislature came close to passing a bill legislating a method to derive pi to a value of 3.2. Any engineer will tell you that if forced to use an imagined value for pi while building a bridge or an airplane, the product will be unstable. Man's will can't override reality. Disaster follows.

So we have a society where the great majority of people believe in God and the belief that God created us all equally. Once that belief is crushed into dust, why on Earth would we close our eyes to what nature is telling us about human inequality? Some will try to argue that appealing to the nature as a model for how society should be constructed is fallacious thinking but what then in its stead? We see the negative ramifications today of a world where we treat all people as equal when they in fact are not, but when God's command is being honored, who are mere men to know better and so we suffer through.

Once the foundational beliefs which created the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are shown to be false, how shall we proceed to reform society? The problem with merely appealing to the Religion of Liberalism is that it's unmoored from independently derived higher principles - it is actually formed by appealing to Christian foundational beliefs. How do we justify the notion of one man, one vote when some men are better and wiser than other men? The rational course is to acknowledge this reality and construct a society reflective of what nature has created. We no longer have to fear God's displeasure because we no longer cling to silly superstitions like "we are all created equal."

How many people do you actually know who believe that all Men are equal only because God told them so?

It is widely accepted that in the context of this writing, the term "men" refers not to gender, but to the entire human race.

What were the first 8 words of my OP? Liberals are like Pavlov's Dogs on this topic. This is like waving red meat before them. The ignorance spews out of them as though an instinctual response. They can't even comprehend what is written and follow a logical progression of thought. This is working out as I predicted. One can never go wrong by counting on Liberals to be insular and dogmatic.

 

[norwegen]

The DoI is NOT the "basis upon which America was established". It was a the basis for the separation from England. The Constitution is the basis upon which America is established.

You don't say. America was established eleven years before the Constitution was drafted, which is the basis upon which America was established.

I'm convinced now that you're so brilliant that only you can understand what you're talking about.

 

[Dot Com]

If We Erase The Christian Basis Of Governance, Then What Do We Unleash?

There is no 'Christian basis of government.'

Our government is secular, not religious – indeed, our freedoms flourish in spite of the detrimental aspects of Christianity, such as the arrogance and propensity to exclude those perceived to be of the 'wrong religion'; hence Article VI and the First Amendment to the US Constitution, to guard against that arrogance and propensity to exclude.

Apparently OP is not familiar w/ The Enlightenment (which directly confronted status quo power structures like the biggest one at that time - organized religion) and the strong influence The Enlightenment, historical governments that actually were well designed, & Deism had on the Framers.

 

[norwegen]

Still waiting for proof that people are created unequally...

Yea, me, too. Seems like every woman in the world wears a c-cup.

Americans are equal simply by virtue of their being human and American.

 

[peach174]

It's not a "Christian" basis of govt, since a good number of founders were deists, not Christians. Rather, it's the notion of a secular state in which laws, which are subject to the BOR's protections for individuals, are premised upon moral norms and reasoning of western Europe, and notably classical liberals.

And I really don't see any evidence we are "abandoning," or considering abandoning, this. We are in a period where the very right sees any compromise as surrender. I won't say there is some justification in their being poed at guys like GWB spending like drunken sailors and going willy nilly off to war. And Obama didn't exactly compromise on universal HC coverage either.

Only three were Deists
Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

Thomas Jefferson	Virginia	Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin	Pennsylvania	Episcopalian (Deist)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Cornelius Harnett

North Carolina

Episcopalian (Deist)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[eflatminor]

Once the foundational beliefs which created the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are shown to be false, ...

The notion that citizens should be free to conduct their own affairs without government meddling unless they infringe on the rights of another is not a false foundation...and hasn't a damn thing to do with Christianity.

How shall we proceed to reform society? Easy. It starts and ends with freedom. Try it sometime!

Why? Why is that good? Where does that silly notion come from?

Silly? Really? If you really find the notion of freedom to be silly, I don't think you can be helped.

Why is it good? Because we have thousands of years of examples demonstrating just how bad totalitarianism can be. Freedom, as envisioned in this country's founding, has proven to be the only cure against the horrors brought on by central planners. That's why.

"All I see about me are unequal outcomes." That is life. Not everyone is equally suited to thrive in the world. Life's tough. Get a helmet.

"Clearly some people are "better" than others and so doesn't it follow from what we observe that they should have more rights. The Übermensch should be treated differently than the Untermensch." No, it doesn't follow. The moment you begin to allow government to treat any sub group differently, you open the door to tyranny, meddling and central planning, which as we know, never ends well. Government should treat everyone exactly the same and government should stay the hell out of everyone's business that isn't infringing on the rights of another. Pretty simple concept that actually works.

 

[Derideo_Te]

It's not a "Christian" basis of govt, since a good number of founders were deists, not Christians. Rather, it's the notion of a secular state in which laws, which are subject to the BOR's protections for individuals, are premised upon moral norms and reasoning of western Europe, and notably classical liberals.

Don't be a jackass. Colonial America was infused Christianity, governance structures were not conceived to be secular.

The moral norms and reasoning of Europe have a Christian world view as their basis. Ancient Sparta didn't have that world view. Headhunter culture in Papua New Guinea don't have that world view.

Your ignorance is beyond belief, Pastor Rikurzhen.

governance structures were not conceived to be secular.

Explain why there is no Christian deity requirement when swearing an oath to uphold an office?

 

[Dot Com]

It's not a "Christian" basis of govt, since a good number of founders were deists, not Christians. Rather, it's the notion of a secular state in which laws, which are subject to the BOR's protections for individuals, are premised upon moral norms and reasoning of western Europe, and notably classical liberals.

And I really don't see any evidence we are "abandoning," or considering abandoning, this. We are in a period where the very right sees any compromise as surrender. I won't say there is some justification in their being poed at guys like GWB spending like drunken sailors and going willy nilly off to war. And Obama didn't exactly compromise on universal HC coverage either.

Only three were Deists
Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

Thomas Jefferson	Virginia	Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin	Pennsylvania	Episcopalian (Deist)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Cornelius Harnett

North Carolina

Episcopalian (Deist)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Deism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Enlightenment philosophy (which itself was heavily inspired by deist ideals) played a major role in creating the principle of religious freedom, expressed in Thomas Jefferson's letters and included in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. American Founding Fathers, or Framers of the Constitution, who were especially noted for being influenced by such philosophy include Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, and Hugh Williamson. Their political speeches show distinct deistic influence.

Other notable Founding Fathers may have been more directly deist. These include James Madison, possibly Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen,[47] and Thomas Paine (who published The Age of Reason, a treatise that helped to popularize deism throughout the United States and Europe).

A major contributor was Elihu Palmer (1764–1806), who wrote the "Bible" of American deism in his Principles of Nature (1801) and attempted to organize deism by forming the "Deistical Society of New York".

 

[Derideo_Te]

I'm hoping that this is a fun topic. A century ago G.K. Chesterton observed:

“The Declaration of Independence dogmatically bases all rights on the fact that God created all men equal; and it is right; for if they were not created equal, they were certainly evolved unequal. There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man.” ​

Christians have this quaint belief that God created Adam and Eve and that all of mankind is equal in the eyes of God. A King and a Pauper shall be judged equally by God once in Heaven. This God inspired notion has informed our governing philosophy ever since we began as a nation.

The evidence of reality however is abundantly clear that we are not all made equal, so what higher principle can we turn to to guide us and prevent us from a utilitarian reform of our laws and customs which recognizes and enshrines what the real world is SCREAMING at us - we are not all equal?

We have past experiments where legislatures have tried to impose the will of man over reality, such as when the Indiana Legislature came close to passing a bill legislating a method to derive pi to a value of 3.2. Any engineer will tell you that if forced to use an imagined value for pi while building a bridge or an airplane, the product will be unstable. Man's will can't override reality. Disaster follows.

So we have a society where the great majority of people believe in God and the belief that God created us all equally. Once that belief is crushed into dust, why on Earth would we close our eyes to what nature is telling us about human inequality? Some will try to argue that appealing to the nature as a model for how society should be constructed is fallacious thinking but what then in its stead? We see the negative ramifications today of a world where we treat all people as equal when they in fact are not, but when God's command is being honored, who are mere men to know better and so we suffer through.

Once the foundational beliefs which created the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are shown to be false, how shall we proceed to reform society? The problem with merely appealing to the Religion of Liberalism is that it's unmoored from independently derived higher principles - it is actually formed by appealing to Christian foundational beliefs. How do we justify the notion of one man, one vote when some men are better and wiser than other men? The rational course is to acknowledge this reality and construct a society reflective of what nature has created. We no longer have to fear God's displeasure because we no longer cling to silly superstitions like "we are all created equal."

How many people do you actually know who believe that all Men are equal only because God told them so?

It is widely accepted that in the context of this writing, the term "men" refers not to gender, but to the entire human race.

What were the first 8 words of my OP? Liberals are like Pavlov's Dogs on this topic. This is like waving red meat before them. The ignorance spews out of them as though an instinctual response. They can't even comprehend what is written and follow a logical progression of thought. This is working out as I predicted. One can never go wrong by counting on Liberals to be insular and dogmatic.

Oh, the irony spewing forth from Pastor Rikurzhen!

 

[LordBrownTrout]

I'm just curious when Right Wingers are going to listen to Jesus' admonition to help the poor, give up wealth and treat people the way you want to be treated.

He was referring to individuals. Governments come and go and have throughout the annals of history.

 

[norwegen]

If We Erase The Christian Basis Of Governance, Then What Do We Unleash?

There is no 'Christian basis of government.'

Our government is secular, not religious – indeed, our freedoms flourish in spite of the detrimental aspects of Christianity, such as the arrogance and propensity to exclude those perceived to be of the 'wrong religion'; hence Article VI and the First Amendment to the US Constitution, to guard against that arrogance and propensity to exclude.

Incorrect. The basis of civilized society is based on Judeo-Christian principles..
That does not mean CHURCH teaches or religious dogma.
You libs want to make that great leap at the mere mention of this fact.

Christianity is one the bases of civilized society in America. Not the only one. Classical antiquity, Enlightenment rationalism, and English common law (along with covenant theology and Puritan social and political theory) began informing Americans 150 years before America was founded. These traditions informed our founding, the creation of our new government, and our society even now still, though less so in recent decades with the institutionalization of Progressivism.

 

[HenryBHough]

Nothing's been right since they renumbered The White House as "666 Transylvania Avenue".

/sarcasticfont

 

[Rikurzhen]

Once the foundational beliefs which created the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are shown to be false, ...

The notion that citizens should be free to conduct their own affairs without government meddling unless they infringe on the rights of another is not a false foundation...and hasn't a damn thing to do with Christianity.

How shall we proceed to reform society? Easy. It starts and ends with freedom. Try it sometime!

Why? Why is that good? Where does that silly notion come from?

Silly? Really? If you really find the notion of freedom to be silly, I don't think you can be helped.

Why is it good? Because we have thousands of years of examples demonstrating just how bad totalitarianism can be. Freedom, as envisioned in this country's founding, has proven to be the only cure against the horrors brought on by central planners. That's why.

Central planners weren't around back in 1776. As for totalitarianism, how do you propose we deal with the liberals? An equality based system which grants one man, one vote, can result in totalitarian liberals coming together and voting in their totalitarian hell. How's that freedom working for you?

I'm going to guess that you're a libertarian. If so, then your libertarian vision is anchored on the social values created in the Christian West. How do you imagine libertarianism is going to play out, that respect for freedom, if we drop it into Papua New Guinea or into the Democratic Republic of the Congo?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The notion alone of a 'Christian basis of government' is an example of Christian arrogance and hostility toward Americans who practice a different religion and those free from faith.

Who gives a ****? Reality and history don't get washed away because you want to be appease people's delusions. The Declaration of Independence clearly states:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
​

The basis upon which America was established is plainly expressed. The America you know is built upon a Christian foundation of understanding man's place in God's universe.

Now the question before us is what path we take on the question of human equality when God's commands on this factor are erased. Nature SHOWS us that humans are not equal, so on what basis do we continue the pantomime - there's no more appealing to God's commands.

As already correctly noted, the Declaration of Independence is not a document of the law, it's completely devoid of any legal authority and codifies no particular kind of governance.


Its reference to 'god' is rhetorical, common speech of the time, seeking the authority of no deity.


And its reference to 'god' is not that of a Christian 'god' nor the deity of any other faith, hence the ridiculous premise of your thread.

 

[koshergrl]

"....the Carta was a Christian document first, and then everything else...

"John, by the grace of God King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and Count of Anjou, to his archbishops, bishops, abbots, earls, barons, justices, foresters, sheriffs, stewards, servants, and to all his officials and loyal subjects, greeting.

"Know that before God, for the health of our soul and those of our ancestors and heirs, to the honour of God, the exaltation of the holy Church, and the better ordering of our kingdom, at the advice of our reverend fathers Stephen, archbishop of Canterbury, primate of all England, and cardinal of the holy Roman Church, Henry archbishop of Dublin, William bishop of London, Peter bishop of Winchester, Jocelin bishop of Bath and Glastonbury, Hugh bishop of Lincoln, Walter Bishop of Worcester, William bishop of Coventry, Benedict bishop of Rochester, Master Pandulf subdeacon and member of the papal household, Brother Aymeric. . . .

"....The Magna Carta doesn’t start with barons, and doesn’t start with individual liberties. It doesn’t start with political considerations, and it doesn’t start with the issue of who holds what power. Magna Carta starts as a religious document, concerned with the “health of the soul” of the King, and with the “honour of God,” and with the “exaltation of the Holy Church.” In addition to that, the King acknowledges that the “advice” for signing the Carta comes from the bishops first, and then from the barons.

"As if this was not enough, the main text of the Great Charter starts with the most forgotten clause that is very seldom quoted by modern historians:

"First, that we have granted to God, and by this present charter have confirmed for us and our heirs in perpetuity, that the English Church shall be free, and shall have its rights undiminished, and its liberties unimpaired."

The Forgotten Clauses of the Magna Carta - The American Vision

 

[koshergrl]

"All the liberties we know today as indispensable for a free society were included in it. A Christian society was a free society, and the Church of Jesus Christ was there to assure that Christian liberty was protected."

The Forgotten Clauses of the Magna Carta - The American Vision

Daily I am impressed by how ignorant usmb lefties are about the very things that make them slaver and howl.

 

[Katzndogz]

We will continue to become even more corrupt, evil and depraved than we are. Until the nation just dies.

 

[koshergrl]

Well, I won't. But as a society, yeah, I think so too.