If Ukraine loses the war and Russia occupies Ukraine, the US and Europe may not have a choice, but to go to war

[ESay]

You know, it is not possible while Kievan Junta is discriminating, abusing and killing ethnic Russians, Russian-speaking Ukrainians and laymen of Ukrainian Orthodox Church on the Kievan controlled lands, and committing sabotage against Russian infrastructure and terror against civilians.

You still don't get it. A 'draw' will be no thanks to Russia, but 'despite of' it.

 

[JohnDB]

You still don't get it. A 'draw' will be no thanks to Russia, but 'despite of' it.

There's not going to be a "draw" this time. The objectives are not so much the restoration of Ukraine but the destruction and extreme weakening of Russia. To the point they no longer have a seat at the G8, G7, but maybe OPEC+....but only "maybe".

And much of this is Russia's fault. They took a page from China's "long game" and began a concerted, focused effort in destabilizing the western world. Nothing they have done has been all that secret. From the propaganda campaigns, election interference, phishing websites, and selective migration of various militant groups(including people from the Middle East)....then there's been usury, recreational drugs, free market interference, and mafia style business tactics.

Look, half the stuff out there in the news is straight from Russian disinformation campaigns coordinated with other nations that are interested in BRICS. Looks good, sounds plausible, and causes all kinds of shouting. But it's mostly just propaganda made up out of whole cloth.

So....guess what? They just became equivalent to a Somali pirate and are going to get the same treatment as such. Wagner Group is just ONE aspect of the Russian Federation. It's not even close to all they have been involved in.

 

[ESay]

There's not going to be a "draw" this time. The objectives are not so much the restoration of Ukraine but the destruction and extreme weakening of Russia. To the point they no longer have a seat at the G8, G7, but maybe OPEC+....but only "maybe".

And much of this is Russia's fault. They took a page from China's "long game" and began a concerted, focused effort in destabilizing the western world. Nothing they have done has been all that secret. From the propaganda campaigns, election interference, phishing websites, and selective migration of various militant groups(including people from the Middle East)....then there's been usury, recreational drugs, free market interference, and mafia style business tactics.

Look, half the stuff out there in the news is straight from Russian disinformation campaigns coordinated with other nations that are interested in BRICS. Looks good, sounds plausible, and causes all kinds of shouting. But it's mostly just propaganda made up out of whole cloth.

So....guess what? They just became equivalent to a Somali pirate and are going to get the same treatment as such. Wagner Group is just ONE aspect of the Russian Federation. It's not even close to all they have been involved in.

Or, in other words, Ukraine is just a tool here. But any tool loses its characteristics and usefulness over a time. And when it is used extensively, this time shortens significantly.

I doubt that Ukraine can take part in a war of such scale and intensity for more than a year on without internal 'shakes'.

 

[JohnDB]

Or, in other words, Ukraine is just a tool here. But any tool loses its characteristics and usefulness over a time. And when it is used extensively, this time shortens significantly.

I doubt that Ukraine can take part in a war of such scale and intensity for more than a year on without internal 'shakes'.

That's why Poland and Finland and a few others are amassing troops on their borders. If Belarus allows troops of any sort cross their border into Ukraine...."Katie bar the door because all hell is gonna break loose"
Also if Russia continues or escalates the war by attacking a British bridge or railway or anyone's ship....

I don't necessarily agree with the objectives...I understand them but don't really agree. There needs to be another way.
But right now....Russia's best chance is to pack up and walk away. But they are so deep into the trap that they can't or won't.

 

[ESay]

That's why Poland and Finland and a few others are amassing troops on their borders. If Belarus allows troops of any sort cross their border into Ukraine...."Katie bar the door because all hell is gonna break loose"
Also if Russia continues or escalates the war by attacking a British bridge or railway or anyone's ship....

I don't necessarily agree with the objectives...I understand them but don't really agree. There needs to be another way.
But right now....Russia's best chance is to pack up and walk away. But they are so deep into the trap that they can't or won't.

They can't pack up and leave. Putin will lose his face. Like in a pack of wolves, the alpha male can't show its weakness especially before an enemy. Putin and all who behind him need a 'win'.

I don't believe that any NATO member country would directly enter the war, even if the Russian troops had been around Lviv. And the Vilnius summit showed that clearly. (I am not talking here about a direct attack against a NATO member).

Russia is careful enough not to mess with NATO block. It even has to tolerate reconnaissance flies of American and British planes/drones over the Black Sea. One thing is babble about a war with NATO, and another thing is to actually wage it.

 

[JohnDB]

They can't pack up and leave. Putin will lose his face. Like in a pack of wolves, the alpha male can't show its weakness especially before an enemy. Putin and all who behind him need a 'win'.

I don't believe that any NATO member country would directly enter the war, even if the Russian troops had been around Lviv. And the Vilnius summit showed that clearly. (I am not talking here about a direct attack against a NATO member).

Russia is careful enough not to mess with NATO block. It even has to tolerate reconnaissance flies of American and British planes/drones over the Black Sea. One thing is babble about a war with NATO, and another thing is to actually wage it.

I understand what you are saying and I pray you are right and I'm wrong.

Currently Poland has 150K troops waiting on its border....and all their equipment. That's not exactly a small number.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Poland moves troops to eastern border amid Wagner fears

Poland began moving over 1,000 troops to the east of the country on Saturday, the defence minister said, amid rising concern in the NATO-member that the presence of Wagner Group fighters in Belarus could lead to increased tension on its border.

www.reuters.com

Gonna be a complete NATO all out war with Russia if Ukraine falters.

Putin: the last man standing in the way of BlackRock's Ukrainian land grab. -- CrusaderFrank

 

[Deadstick]

If putin defeats ukraine and occupies the country it will be a setback for the western democracies

But not the end of NATO

In fact it could open the eyes of peacenik isolationists in the west who think “defense” is a dirty word

Putin doesn't want to occupy Ukraine, he wants to denazify it and trash their Western backed military so they will never be a threat ever again, and that is what is happening right now, you should thank god Putin is a reasonable man or Ukraine would be a pile of rancid rat shit by now.

 

[Deadstick]

I understand what you are saying and I pray you are right and I'm wrong.

Currently Poland has 150K troops waiting on its border....and all their equipment. That's not exactly a small number.

Those polish troops are there to take back parts of Western Ukraine that were once Polish, you do know that.

 

[Deadstick]

Only if NATO and Ukraine agree to keep Ukraine neutral - that's what this ridiculous war is essentially all about.

Spot on, that was one main reason for the coup back in 2014, the plan was for the puppet installed Regime to hand Crimea and Sevastopol over to Nato, that is the reason Putin took action in Crimea, what worries me is those deluded clowns in Washington and Nato actually thought Russia would tolerate that nonsense.

 

[ESay]

I understand what you are saying and I pray you are right and I'm wrong.

Currently Poland has 150K troops waiting on its border....and all their equipment. That's not exactly a small number.

I also 'pray' that I am right and that in the course of this year the active fighting will halt, and in the course on the next year Ukraine will return to a peaceful life (it is a relative term, of course).

About the Polish troops along the border, some Russian milbloggers say that since last year's May, at least. But that all is only rhetoric. This rhetoric got stronger again after the Wagner redeployment to Belarus announcement. My bet is that the Wagner Group will be used there primarily as a distraction for the AFU and support for the Lukashenko regime. There will be no second front. But the time will show, of course.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Putin doesn't want to occupy Ukraine, he wants to denazify it and trash their Western backed military so they will never be a threat ever again, and that is what is happening right now, you should thank god Putin is a reasonable man or Ukraine would be a pile of rancid rat shit by now.

Putin been extra careful in deNazifying Eastern Ukraine. He didn't indiscriminately bomb and kill the people who voted to rejoin Russia.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

It's as if the WEF WANTS to start WWIII

“But, look, the idea – the idea that we’re going to send in offensive equipment and have planes and tanks and trains going in with American pilots and American crews, just understand – and don’t kid yourself, no matter what you all say – that’s called ‘World War III." -- Bought and paid for Biden

 

[Oddball]

Zelensky: Ukrainian loss could force US to choose between ‘collapse of NATO’ or war

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Thursday that a loss to Russia could ultimately force the U.S. to choose between the “collapse of NATO” or going to war. “If Ukraine would lose, if Russi…

thehill.com

I know it is scary, but that may be the only choice left. Putin is not going to stop at Ukraine, if he occupies the country.

 

[toomuchtime_]

There's not going to be a "draw" this time. The objectives are not so much the restoration of Ukraine but the destruction and extreme weakening of Russia. To the point they no longer have a seat at the G8, G7, but maybe OPEC+....but only "maybe".

And much of this is Russia's fault. They took a page from China's "long game" and began a concerted, focused effort in destabilizing the western world. Nothing they have done has been all that secret. From the propaganda campaigns, election interference, phishing websites, and selective migration of various militant groups(including people from the Middle East)....then there's been usury, recreational drugs, free market interference, and mafia style business tactics.

Look, half the stuff out there in the news is straight from Russian disinformation campaigns coordinated with other nations that are interested in BRICS. Looks good, sounds plausible, and causes all kinds of shouting. But it's mostly just propaganda made up out of whole cloth.

So....guess what? They just became equivalent to a Somali pirate and are going to get the same treatment as such. Wagner Group is just ONE aspect of the Russian Federation. It's not even close to all they have been involved in.

More accurately, I think, the goal is in part to weaken Russia because of its invasion of Ukraine, and by weaken, it is not to weaken Russia's ability to defend itself, which would benefit no one, but weaken Russia's ability to attack its neighbors.

Without military action, all of Russia's machinations to try to gain power come to nothing, as we all saw as Russia failed to control Ukraine by subverting its government, so to persuade Russia it cannot prevail by the use of military force, the present goal must be to drive Russia from Ukraine. There is no other way to weaken Russia's ability to attack other nations.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

As much as I once supported a neutral Ukraine, and opposed the enthusiasm and naïveté in the West about Ukrainian nationalism and the “Maidan Revolution,” after the blood spilled by the Feb. 2022 Russian invasion a “neutral Ukraine” has become impossible. That ship probably already sailed back in 2014. The Russians may be able to hold onto a few parts of Ukraine in addition to Crimea, but that is it. Putin realizes now he can only tear Ukraine apart. He cannot occupy it, and probably would not want to even if he could. Besides, he has other things to worry about at home, like survival.

Many Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine have been especially depopulated and devastated, and many Russian-speakers in Ukraine are not happy about this, and blame Putin for the war. War weariness affects all, but the once mixed “Russian-Ukrainian” culture has been dealt a blow that will probably never be repaired.

The Russians can no longer “win the war” but at best only inherit a burden, even if they somehow get a favorable peace deal after 2024. U.S. rulers, especially if Republicans win the next election, will eventually decide to cut back on helping the Ukrainians, but for now they and the Ukrainian nationalists still think they have a chance to win back more territory, or even see Russia suffer an internal collapse. The U.S. & NATO may eventually pressure Zelensky to sign a a cease fire. I just don’t see Russia being able to invade other NATO countries in the foreseeable future.

This is just Zelensky talk. He is trying … “to wag the dog.”

 

[Oddball]

Only if NATO and Ukraine agree to keep Ukraine neutral - that's what this ridiculous war is essentially all about.

That was the original deal....PedoPete wouldn't go for that and caused the poor people of Ukraine be his blood pawns.

 

[toomuchtime_]

As much as I once supported a neutral Ukraine, and opposed the enthusiasm and naïveté in the West about Ukrainian nationalism and the “Maidan Revolution,” after the blood spilled by the 2020 Russian invasion a “neutral Ukraine” has become impossible. That ship probably already sailed back in 2014. The Russians may be able to hold onto a few parts of Ukraine in addition to Crimea, but that is it. Putin realizes now he can only tear Ukraine apart. He cannot occupy it, and probably would not want to even if he could. Besides, he has other things to worry about at home, like survival.

Many Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine have been especially depopulated and devastated, and many Russian-speakers in Ukraine are not happy about this, and blame Putin for the war. War weariness affects all, but the once mixed “Russian-Ukrainian” culture has been dealt a blow that will probably never be repaired.

The Russians can no longer “win the war” but at best only inherit a burden, even if they somehow get a favorable peace deal after 2024. U.S. rulers, especially if Republicans win the next election, will eventually decide to cut back on helping the Ukrainians, but for now they and the Ukrainian nationalists still think they have a chance to win back more territory, or even see Russia suffer an internal collapse. The U.S. & NATO may eventually pressure Zelensky to sign a a cease fire. I just don’t see Russia being able to invade other NATO countries in the foreseeable future.

This is just Zelensky talk. He is trying … “to wag the dog.”

A cease fire is an invitation to Russia to renew its attacks on Ukraine, perhaps in another eight years, as it did after the 2014 invasion of Ukraine. The larger goal has to be to persuade Russia it cannot gain territory through military action, and nothing but driving Russia from all of Ukraine will accomplish that. There is nothing to negotiate with Russia until it leaves Ukraine and accepts that Ukraine will be a member of NATO.

 

[Markle]

Very little...but they aren't the object of the exercise....Russia is.
The EU and the Western World, for good reasons too numerous to list, want a substantially weaker Russia.

And if you understand that notion...then a LOT more makes sense.

Russia has been working diligently working on the destabilization of the entire Western World....all those who practice free market capitalism. They have been targeting our vices in order to divide us.

We agree that there is no logical reason for us to be sending billions in arms and treasure to Ukraine. Thank you.

Russia is not our primary enemy. By far, China is a massive and growing problem, and not President Biden has pushed Russia into the arms of China.

What a disaster!

 

[Deadstick]

More accurately, I think, the goal is in part to weaken Russia because of its invasion of Ukraine, and by weaken, it is not to weaken Russia's ability to defend itself, which would benefit no one, but weaken Russia's ability to attack its neighbors.

Without military action, all of Russia's machinations to try to gain power come to nothing, as we all saw as Russia failed to control Ukraine by subverting its government, so to persuade Russia it cannot prevail by the use of military force, the present goal must be to drive Russia from Ukraine. There is no other way to weaken Russia's ability to attack other nations.

Do you think Putin woke up one morning and thought think i will attack Ukraine for a laugh and for no reason? what makes you think Russia wants to attack any other nations? its bullshit, just don't give them a reason to like those Nazis in Kiev did.