If God doesn't exist...

[PK1]

As i stated MANY times before, i have no belief in any conceptualization of a "god"; i am agnostic and honest about my ignorance.

And as I have stated many times before and proven through logic, you are full of shit. It is irrational for you to believe that you are ignostic and be arguing against the existence of God. Ignosticism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless, because the term "god" has no unambiguous definition. So here you are engaging in an argument that you have already defined as meaningless. Which means that it isn't so meaningless to you and it is irrational to define yourself as ignostic.

Hold on to your emotions! LOL.
I am ignostic about your idea of a "God".
I am agnostic about a logical argument for a "god" if rationally defined.

Try to keep up!

You are also a liar, lol.
Is There A God?

I prefer honesty & am ignostic.

I did not lie.
Why did you believe that?
Can you state your logical argument for that false belief?

Good Lord, it was your own words which convicted you.

So you have no logical argument, again.

 

[sealybobo]

I sell machines that measure important parts. Cmm's

You mean like CNC systems?

No coordinate measurement machines but close

Sure, but they are used in CNC applications, right?

Sure

So I was right about that then, right? How would I know that CMM's were used in CNC applications? Because I'm an engineer and I purchase equipment that is manufactured using CNC technology. That's how. What kind of CMM's do you sell?

Because you are a buyer. You don't sound like an engineer.

I'm not telling you who I work for

 

[ding]

Who says they do?

You ever watch blackish? But you make a good point. Us libs can't have it both ways. We say southern Democrats were racist but now southern Republicans are. So it's possible for parties to change. You claim the GOP is not racist and it's the best party for working class people. Moving forward let's see.

I will forgive all past sins. Let's forget the past. I have an open mind. God if you're out there give me a sign

The more Republican the south became the less racist it became. All of the bad things that happened in the south happened when Democrats were in charge of the south.

Well I think the KKK in the 80s, 90's, 2000 and 2010s vote GOP, no?

I don't believe they did. Why would they? Republicans want to get blacks off of the economic plantation. Republicans want to end the black genocide of abortion. Democrats want to pay for your abortions. They even have it written in their party platform for crying out loud. Why else do they put planned parenthood abortion mills close to black population centers? I believe the KKK are the biggest supporters and donors of planned parenthood. You do realize that black babies are three times more likely to be aborted than white babies, right?

Under those ghetto conditions yes I understand why.

You fix their economic opportunities and they have no reason to abort. As of now the ghettos already have too many baby daddies and not enough fathers.

Did you know that back in the 1930's the percentage of black families which had two parents in their household exceeded that of white families? Do you know what destroyed their nuclear family?

 

[ding]

And as I have stated many times before and proven through logic, you are full of shit. It is irrational for you to believe that you are ignostic and be arguing against the existence of God. Ignosticism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless, because the term "god" has no unambiguous definition. So here you are engaging in an argument that you have already defined as meaningless. Which means that it isn't so meaningless to you and it is irrational to define yourself as ignostic.

Hold on to your emotions! LOL.
I am ignostic about your idea of a "God".
I am agnostic about a logical argument for a "god" if rationally defined.

Try to keep up!

You are also a liar, lol.
Is There A God?

I prefer honesty & am ignostic.

I did not lie.
Why did you believe that?
Can you state your logical argument for that false belief?

Good Lord, it was your own words which convicted you.

So you have no logical argument, again.

Of course I do. I already showed it to you. You said so in your own words that you were ignostic. You placed no caveat on it. It was an unconditional statement. You didn't say you were ignostic about my beliefs. That was you stating your beliefs. I thought you said you had to go to attend to more important things. Was that a lie too?

 

[ding]

You mean like CNC systems?

No coordinate measurement machines but close

Sure, but they are used in CNC applications, right?

Sure

So I was right about that then, right? How would I know that CMM's were used in CNC applications? Because I'm an engineer and I purchase equipment that is manufactured using CNC technology. That's how. What kind of CMM's do you sell?

Because you are a buyer. You don't sound like an engineer.

I'm not telling you who I work for

I didn't ask who you work for. I asked what kind of CMM's you sold. Are you telling me that you can't tell what your CMM's are measuring without telling me who you work for?

I spec out and purchase equipment all the time. Our purchasing department won't purchase shit unless I tell them what to buy. I write SoR''s and get price quotes. You do realize that engineering is the COMMERCIAL application of science, right?

So when you say you sell CMM's what exactly does that mean? Do you call on customers? Do you prepare price quotes? Do you work with them on SoR's? What exactly do you do?

 

[ding]

You mean like CNC systems?

No coordinate measurement machines but close

Sure, but they are used in CNC applications, right?

Sure

So I was right about that then, right? How would I know that CMM's were used in CNC applications? Because I'm an engineer and I purchase equipment that is manufactured using CNC technology. That's how. What kind of CMM's do you sell?

Because you are a buyer. You don't sound like an engineer.

I'm not telling you who I work for

Do you know a lot of buyers who understand the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics or radiative forcing of CO2?

 

[ding]

Are we done here?

 

[BreezeWood]

.
at 2808, I doubt it. and that is in no way an endorsement for Damaged --- chuckles --- Eagle ...

.

 

[sealybobo]

You ever watch blackish? But you make a good point. Us libs can't have it both ways. We say southern Democrats were racist but now southern Republicans are. So it's possible for parties to change. You claim the GOP is not racist and it's the best party for working class people. Moving forward let's see.

I will forgive all past sins. Let's forget the past. I have an open mind. God if you're out there give me a sign

The more Republican the south became the less racist it became. All of the bad things that happened in the south happened when Democrats were in charge of the south.

Well I think the KKK in the 80s, 90's, 2000 and 2010s vote GOP, no?

I don't believe they did. Why would they? Republicans want to get blacks off of the economic plantation. Republicans want to end the black genocide of abortion. Democrats want to pay for your abortions. They even have it written in their party platform for crying out loud. Why else do they put planned parenthood abortion mills close to black population centers? I believe the KKK are the biggest supporters and donors of planned parenthood. You do realize that black babies are three times more likely to be aborted than white babies, right?

Under those ghetto conditions yes I understand why.

You fix their economic opportunities and they have no reason to abort. As of now the ghettos already have too many baby daddies and not enough fathers.

Did you know that back in the 1930's the percentage of black families which had two parents in their household exceeded that of white families? Do you know what destroyed their nuclear family?

Welfare? I also heard how for years white women got welfare but equally poor black women didn't. Republicans never had a problem with welfare until blacks started giving it.

I'm not saying I don't agree with you "they" have grown too dependent on welfare

 

[sealybobo]

No coordinate measurement machines but close

Sure, but they are used in CNC applications, right?

Sure

So I was right about that then, right? How would I know that CMM's were used in CNC applications? Because I'm an engineer and I purchase equipment that is manufactured using CNC technology. That's how. What kind of CMM's do you sell?

Because you are a buyer. You don't sound like an engineer.

I'm not telling you who I work for

I didn't ask who you work for. I asked what kind of CMM's you sold. Are you telling me that you can't tell what your CMM's are measuring without telling me who you work for?

I spec out and purchase equipment all the time. Our purchasing department won't purchase shit unless I tell them what to buy. I write SoR''s and get price quotes. You do realize that engineering is the COMMERCIAL application of science, right?

So when you say you sell CMM's what exactly does that mean? Do you call on customers? Do you prepare price quotes? Do you work with them on SoR's? What exactly do you do?

I do all that. I'm the only salesperson at my company who goes after new business. The other salespeople sell to anyone who calls in or they sell new cmm's to existing customers.

And we measure anything that has to be right within mm or microns. Turbines, pharmaceutical, manufacturing. We don't sell cnc"'s we sell cmm's. One of our competitors is Zeiss.

 

[sealybobo]

Are we done here?

Sorry I have a life to live. Lol I know a couple or a few really smart guys

 

[ding]

Sure, but they are used in CNC applications, right?

Sure

So I was right about that then, right? How would I know that CMM's were used in CNC applications? Because I'm an engineer and I purchase equipment that is manufactured using CNC technology. That's how. What kind of CMM's do you sell?

Because you are a buyer. You don't sound like an engineer.

I'm not telling you who I work for

I didn't ask who you work for. I asked what kind of CMM's you sold. Are you telling me that you can't tell what your CMM's are measuring without telling me who you work for?

I spec out and purchase equipment all the time. Our purchasing department won't purchase shit unless I tell them what to buy. I write SoR''s and get price quotes. You do realize that engineering is the COMMERCIAL application of science, right?

So when you say you sell CMM's what exactly does that mean? Do you call on customers? Do you prepare price quotes? Do you work with them on SoR's? What exactly do you do?

I do all that. I'm the only salesperson at my company who goes after new business. The other salespeople sell to anyone who calls in or they sell new cmm's to existing customers.

And we measure anything that has to be right within mm or microns. Turbines, pharmaceutical, manufacturing. We don't sell cnc"'s we sell cmm's. One of our competitors is Zeiss.

So your equipment is not installed in CNC applications at all? Just used for QA/QC?

 

[ding]

Are we done here?

Sorry I have a life to live. Lol I know a couple or a few really smart guys

That wasn't directed at you.

 

[RWS]

So He doesn't exist, doesn't care, is unaware, likes the savagery, or is just a really bad Player in the Universal God Game.

We should be travelling to other star systems by now. Except that religion keeps erasing our knowledge for the benefit of the ruler.

We have to start over every 1000 years or so.... Why?

That is an idiotic statement. The external locus of control is strong in this one.

You support the omnipotent benevolent God, do you not?

And being an engineer, you know the mass reboots we have undertaken as a species based on religious genocide and wiping out of prior knowledge, right?

And where we could possibly be at this point in terms of medicine and science, if those religious reboots never happened?

So where was your omnipotent and benevolent God, during the times of human crisis?

And if he just lets us do our own thing without intervention, and roots for those that believe in him, then that means he doesn't care.

Or he doesn't have the power to care.

Or maybe, He likes seeing the evil and destruction he can cause in his video game of our universe, before he has to go to dinner.

Or... maybe... he just doesn't exist? And we made Him up to explain stuff we haven't yet explained?


Why is the idea of "God" being real, important to you?

Im trying to think religiously. They would say we have free will or that everything happens for a reason or that we can't have all the answers or its gods will.

Fact is your questions debunk the God that supposedly visits cares and occasionally interveens. Unless you believe one of the thousands of religions and in that case pick any one of them they have all the answers.

That's my argument. What religions give us as "God", are simply ways to control us, and get powerful and rich. This omnipotent and benevolent being cannot exist based on the facts of history.

So maybe God is now a more watered down version, and has lost some of His abilities, and no longer has the power to intervene. This would be my hopeful version for religious zealots...

Otherwise, He's evil and watching, and munching on popcorn, to see what the heck we do next, and what other dramas we create, while He roots for the people that believe in Him to kill all the others...

Or He's completely unaware of our situation. He created us and has since then moved on to better things...

Or, He's playing a video game in such an advanced state of AI, that it can simulate all of us, along with the rest of universe. He's not good or bad in that scenario, it's just a simulation that He's playing, and we're part of it.

Or, of course, He very possibly doesn't

In any of these options, there are no reasons to love this "god" and believe that it is looking out for your welfare. There is no reason to believe false rulers who claim to talk to this "god", and hand down rules and restrictions and tax their followers. They grow rich and powerful based on the ignorance and naive nature of their followers. And there is especially no reason to kill another person based on the command of one of these false rulers!

But that's what religion has done for over 4000 years after the original Sumerian tales of Creation. They changed the stories to suit their objectives, and gain power and wealth. They used "believers" to kill their enemies and gain more power and wealth. Because only a person that believes that they are doing something that "God" commanded them to, would go and kill others knowing that it meant their own death. Esp in times before guns and long-range weapons. They kill and die for the glory they expect in the "afterlife" that their ruler told them would happen.

But that's obviously not true.


So again, I ask people who believe in these things... Why is the idea of "God" being real, important to you?

Isn't it good enough just to have something inside that makes you feel good? Faith in goodness? Faith in that doing good to others is better than doing bad to others? So why are "God" and the associated religions necessary?

Because, they're killin us...

 

[RWS]

Per Wiki, there are approximately 4,200 religions in the world.

Now, using that as a number going forward, and based on the meaning of being devoted to a religion, and that each one believes that their's is infallibly correct, that means that 4,199 of them are flat-out wrong!!!

Wow...

And given enough prodding, they're willing to kill the other 4,199 religions, and all the people that believe in them, just to prove they're right!

They all have common elements because there are natural laws. You seem more than ready to blame religion for the bad but very reluctant to give religion any credit for the good.

Despite the fact that you are making a fringe argument, your argument has two major flaws which are common to all critical theory arguments; 1. your analysis was made in a vacuum; 2. what you did analyze lacked objectivity.

Religion promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness. Religion is responsible for the creation of wonderful charities and organizations which serve the betterment of man. Religious persons and institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions. Religious persons and institutions have been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing. Religion gave us the concept of subsidiarity and has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility Religion teaches accountability and responsibility. Religion teaches that we have a choice in how we behave and that actions have consequences. Religion inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe and helps us feel connected to one another and to nature through regular community gatherings. Religion helps us feel less alone in the world by binding the community together. Religion serves to ennoble the human spirit and inspires love, peace and happiness. Religion brings order to our lives by promoting the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness and humility. Religion brings comfort to the terminally ill and can act as a source of hope for the oppressed. Religion teaches that we can transform ourselves. That it is possible to change for the better. Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market. The Catholic Church invented the university. Western law grew out of Church canon law. The Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources. Religion gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians. Religion gave us America. Religion gave us incredible artwork, music and architecture. Christianity has spread democracy throughout the world. Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression and rebuilt Europe and Japan after WWII. Christians put a man on the moon and ended the cold war.

So getting back to my point that your argument has two major flaws; your argument that God and religion have done little good is not objective and you have yet to tell us what good the alternative to religion has done. Exactly what has atheism done? Because as near as I can tell, atheism's claim to fame is murdering 200 million people in the 20th century.

Let's talk about the "flaws"...

1. My analysis was made after studying many religions, and then science. And other alternatives to both.

2. What I analyzed was completely objective. Not subjective like your borne-in religion. I completely wiped the slate, and started thinking things through objectively.

I also promote the value of thankfulness, forgiveness, goodness and the rest of the things you mention. But religion did not create those values. They are created by natural selection. A species that wants to kill their own for no reason, is not going to last long. Natural selection will dictate that they care for each other, so we can continue to copulate and flourish. However.... this principle goes completely against what religion has done to us throughout history.

Your major flaw is that your theory is COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE. You have absolutely no objectivity. You believe what you believe, because that is what you were taught, and you continue to promote it despite the evil that you admit it has caused.

Rule #1: Goodness does not require a religion or a God.

That is why I ask why you need a "God" and why it's so important to you that it exists?

 

[RWS]

If God doesn't exist...

... then maybe Gods do
... or maybe not.

Maybe we will never know because we don't even know what it means to be a "god".

You must be a government school grad, huh?
Bet they never told you that our memorializing documents are based on the Bible.

"They told you"? LOL.
I am not a dogmatic follower with a useless brain. I attended 5 public schools/college and a private university in the Ivy League. Learned critical thinking skills in rhetoric classes and philosophy & sciences.
The statesmen 200+ years ago were relatively ignorant, with some exception from Franklin, Paine, and Jefferson.
The Bible is 2,000 year-old trash when it comes to "God".
Are you another sucker that believes that old cultural shit has any modern use in epistemology?

If you believe that you are using critical thinking skills, then you don't know what critical thinking is. What you are practicing is critical theory. Critical theory is the practice of criticizing everything you don't believe to justify what you do believe which of course is wrongheaded thinking. Critical thinking is to critically challenge what you do believe to test its validity. You are just another dumbass wanna be pretending to be intellectual. You don't know shit. You have never known shit and it is entirely likely that you will die never knowing shit.. You feel me.

I realize you are emotional about your set-in-stone ancient "God" beliefs, but try to get a grip on your feelings before exercising whatever intellect you have.

Critical thinking reflects an objective evaluation of knowledge claims before adopting a belief.
You obviously have the cart before the horse. You adopted a Christian-Catholic belief system before logical evaluation; your biased view tries to make things "fit" into your belief system that you are emotionally invested in.

To be objective, you need to not assume something is true before you start your evaluation.
Does a "god" exist? We don't know, unless there is a valid logical argument to support its answer one way or another.
Are you able to elucidate a logical argument for the existence of a single "God"?
If so, please begin by stating your premises that lead to your logical conclusion ...

I just said this same thing on my reply, after yours. You're exactly right!

 

[RWS]

There's actually another option about "God" that could possibly be true. And it actually makes a lot of sense if true.

God is not a supernatural being, but an extra-terrestrial one. They came here, created us in their image using their DNA with the high ape at the time to use as a slave race, did what they needed, taught us what was necessary, and then left...

And we're here scratching our heads over it, and making stuff up afterwards.

This is what the Sumerians said 6000 years ago. And their texts are what most every other major religion is based on. So that is another option to add to the list of what "God" is or isn't...

 

[RWS]

In that theory, you get your Creation and beings with "super powers", you get your science, and it makes sense why the stories branched out into so many different and confusing paths afterwards, and why we fight about it. You just have to allow the possibility of an ET visiting the Earth in ancient times, like the Anunnaki ("those who from heaven to earth came"). If you can allow that possibility, then it is a very compelling argument indeed.

But regardless, it is not necessary in this discussion, except maybe in a historical context of what "God" originally was to the first people to learn how to write, who were also the first civilization known to man. And the plagiarism that took place afterwards that gave us our current God(s).... Maybe it is necessary in that understanding...

 

[sealybobo]

Sure

So I was right about that then, right? How would I know that CMM's were used in CNC applications? Because I'm an engineer and I purchase equipment that is manufactured using CNC technology. That's how. What kind of CMM's do you sell?

Because you are a buyer. You don't sound like an engineer.

I'm not telling you who I work for

I didn't ask who you work for. I asked what kind of CMM's you sold. Are you telling me that you can't tell what your CMM's are measuring without telling me who you work for?

I spec out and purchase equipment all the time. Our purchasing department won't purchase shit unless I tell them what to buy. I write SoR''s and get price quotes. You do realize that engineering is the COMMERCIAL application of science, right?

So when you say you sell CMM's what exactly does that mean? Do you call on customers? Do you prepare price quotes? Do you work with them on SoR's? What exactly do you do?

I do all that. I'm the only salesperson at my company who goes after new business. The other salespeople sell to anyone who calls in or they sell new cmm's to existing customers.

And we measure anything that has to be right within mm or microns. Turbines, pharmaceutical, manufacturing. We don't sell cnc"'s we sell cmm's. One of our competitors is Zeiss.

So your equipment is not installed in CNC applications at all? Just used for QA/QC?

Yes. A cmm is a machine itself. Could be huge could be the size of a copier. Boeing has to measure turbine blades to make sure their planes are built right

 

[sealybobo]

So He doesn't exist, doesn't care, is unaware, likes the savagery, or is just a really bad Player in the Universal God Game.

We should be travelling to other star systems by now. Except that religion keeps erasing our knowledge for the benefit of the ruler.

We have to start over every 1000 years or so.... Why?

That is an idiotic statement. The external locus of control is strong in this one.

You support the omnipotent benevolent God, do you not?

And being an engineer, you know the mass reboots we have undertaken as a species based on religious genocide and wiping out of prior knowledge, right?

And where we could possibly be at this point in terms of medicine and science, if those religious reboots never happened?

So where was your omnipotent and benevolent God, during the times of human crisis?

And if he just lets us do our own thing without intervention, and roots for those that believe in him, then that means he doesn't care.

Or he doesn't have the power to care.

Or maybe, He likes seeing the evil and destruction he can cause in his video game of our universe, before he has to go to dinner.

Or... maybe... he just doesn't exist? And we made Him up to explain stuff we haven't yet explained?


Why is the idea of "God" being real, important to you?

Im trying to think religiously. They would say we have free will or that everything happens for a reason or that we can't have all the answers or its gods will.

Fact is your questions debunk the God that supposedly visits cares and occasionally interveens. Unless you believe one of the thousands of religions and in that case pick any one of them they have all the answers.

That's my argument. What religions give us as "God", are simply ways to control us, and get powerful and rich. This omnipotent and benevolent being cannot exist based on the facts of history.

So maybe God is now a more watered down version, and has lost some of His abilities, and no longer has the power to intervene. This would be my hopeful version for religious zealots...

Otherwise, He's evil and watching, and munching on popcorn, to see what the heck we do next, and what other dramas we create, while He roots for the people that believe in Him to kill all the others...

Or He's completely unaware of our situation. He created us and has since then moved on to better things...

Or, He's playing a video game in such an advanced state of AI, that it can simulate all of us, along with the rest of universe. He's not good or bad in that scenario, it's just a simulation that He's playing, and we're part of it.

Or, of course, He very possibly doesn't

In any of these options, there are no reasons to love this "god" and believe that it is looking out for your welfare. There is no reason to believe false rulers who claim to talk to this "god", and hand down rules and restrictions and tax their followers. They grow rich and powerful based on the ignorance and naive nature of their followers. And there is especially no reason to kill another person based on the command of one of these false rulers!

But that's what religion has done for over 4000 years after the original Sumerian tales of Creation. They changed the stories to suit their objectives, and gain power and wealth. They used "believers" to kill their enemies and gain more power and wealth. Because only a person that believes that they are doing something that "God" commanded them to, would go and kill others knowing that it meant their own death. Esp in times before guns and long-range weapons. They kill and die for the glory they expect in the "afterlife" that their ruler told them would happen.

But that's obviously not true.


So again, I ask people who believe in these things... Why is the idea of "God" being real, important to you?

Isn't it good enough just to have something inside that makes you feel good? Faith in goodness? Faith in that doing good to others is better than doing bad to others? So why are "God" and the associated religions necessary?

Because, they're killin us...

Before I finish I had a thought.

Does a bison know about the maggot it created when it took a shit?

Or, if you create a computer are you aware of every little thing happening inside the computer? You don't want the computer to break down so you fix it. God won't fix our sun when it decides to burn out.

Sorry, I'll keep reading your post now