Idaho toddler shoots mother dead in Walmart store.

[Marianne]

The victim’s father-in-law, Terry Rutledge, told Associated Press that she “was a beautiful, young, loving mother.”

“She was not the least bit irresponsible,” he said. “She was taken much too soon.”


What would this guy call irresponsible? If I had a gun in my purse I sure as hell wouldn't have that purse in arms reach of my kids. Actually I refused to get a gun until my kids were grown. I'm just glad the child wasn't hurt.

That child may not have been physically hurt but it was hurt in other ways.

That child now will have to grow up with it's mother. Without her love and guidance.

That child will have to live all it's life knowing it killed it's own mother.

In my opinion, that's a lot of hurt.

I mean physically hurt as in dead. That kid could have just as easily shot himself. Mentally I'm sure this will be hard on the kid.

 

[Vandalshandle]

One thing is for sure, Bill. If I am ever in church, and they want me to bow my head and close my eyes for prayer, I will know better, now that I have read your post. It is most likely just an ambush.

Do you sleep with your Glock under the pillow? Also, be sure to carry it to the john. I am sure that you saw what happened to john Travolta in "Pulp Fiction".

Notice...in Pulp fiction, they were all criminals and they all carried guns...and the gun that killed Travolta....fully automatic.....meaning even more laws were broken.....

Well, I guess that I should start wearing my 9mm. Ya never know when you are going to run into John Travolta!

 

[2aguy]

Criminals are people too.......

And you could provide the break down of what "criminal activity" is.....is it carrying a gun illegally? Like in a bar.....or into a building that is a gun free zone....? Which is hardly the same as defending a drug deal....we would need to know much more about the activity than you are implying before any judgement can be made.....but don't let that stop you.....

They are, but if a criminal shoots another criminal I really don't care. I'm more interested in how many non-criminals use a gun in defense. And since he says typically, we can assume there is illegal behavior in most defenses. So going from 2.5 million with criminals to 100k without really isn't a big stretch.

Yes....someone approaches you in a threatening manner....you draw you weapon they ran away...technically, until you can prove you were under a threat, you have broken the law against brandishing, you might be hit with reckless endangerment.....so like I said...there is too much to know before you dismiss the study on your belief they are all criminals....

Or you shoot, miss, and the guy runs away....discharging a gun in public, a crime...and you have to show you believed you were under an imminent threat.....like that?

That is a good part of what he means......and why people don't want to answer the NCVS accurately.....

Illegal behavior Bill. The examples you give are legal correct? Kleck didn't say what may be considered illegal behavior. I didn't think you had such a soft spot for criminals.

You have to ask Kleck....I don't specifically know all the details.....he is the guy who did the research...ask him....

 

[2aguy]

One thing is for sure, Bill. If I am ever in church, and they want me to bow my head and close my eyes for prayer, I will know better, now that I have read your post. It is most likely just an ambush.

Do you sleep with your Glock under the pillow? Also, be sure to carry it to the john. I am sure that you saw what happened to john Travolta in "Pulp Fiction".

Notice...in Pulp fiction, they were all criminals and they all carried guns...and the gun that killed Travolta....fully automatic.....meaning even more laws were broken.....

Well, I guess that I should start wearing my 9mm. Ya never know when you are going to run into John Travolta!

yes...the last thing you want is to start having to listen to a lecture on Scientology......a 9mm will probably discourage that conversation.....

 

[Brain357]

Criminals are people too.......

And you could provide the break down of what "criminal activity" is.....is it carrying a gun illegally? Like in a bar.....or into a building that is a gun free zone....? Which is hardly the same as defending a drug deal....we would need to know much more about the activity than you are implying before any judgement can be made.....but don't let that stop you.....

They are, but if a criminal shoots another criminal I really don't care. I'm more interested in how many non-criminals use a gun in defense. And since he says typically, we can assume there is illegal behavior in most defenses. So going from 2.5 million with criminals to 100k without really isn't a big stretch.

Yes....someone approaches you in a threatening manner....you draw you weapon they ran away...technically, until you can prove you were under a threat, you have broken the law against brandishing, you might be hit with reckless endangerment.....so like I said...there is too much to know before you dismiss the study on your belief they are all criminals....

Or you shoot, miss, and the guy runs away....discharging a gun in public, a crime...and you have to show you believed you were under an imminent threat.....like that?

That is a good part of what he means......and why people don't want to answer the NCVS accurately.....

Illegal behavior Bill. The examples you give are legal correct? Kleck didn't say what may be considered illegal behavior. I didn't think you had such a soft spot for criminals.

You have to ask Kleck....I don't specifically know all the details.....he is the guy who did the research...ask him....

I don't need to ask him, we have his quote:
"This is true because DGUs typically involve criminal behavior, such as unlawful gun possession, by the gun-using victim, who therefore is often unwilling to report the incident."

He is quite clear. So most defenses in his survey are by someone involved in criminal behavior. When you mention your 1.6 million you really need to add gangs defending their turf, drug dealers defending their stash, bullies intimidating the innocent... Those are a big part of that 1.6 million defenses.

 

[2aguy]

Criminals are people too.......

And you could provide the break down of what "criminal activity" is.....is it carrying a gun illegally? Like in a bar.....or into a building that is a gun free zone....? Which is hardly the same as defending a drug deal....we would need to know much more about the activity than you are implying before any judgement can be made.....but don't let that stop you.....

They are, but if a criminal shoots another criminal I really don't care. I'm more interested in how many non-criminals use a gun in defense. And since he says typically, we can assume there is illegal behavior in most defenses. So going from 2.5 million with criminals to 100k without really isn't a big stretch.

Yes....someone approaches you in a threatening manner....you draw you weapon they ran away...technically, until you can prove you were under a threat, you have broken the law against brandishing, you might be hit with reckless endangerment.....so like I said...there is too much to know before you dismiss the study on your belief they are all criminals....

Or you shoot, miss, and the guy runs away....discharging a gun in public, a crime...and you have to show you believed you were under an imminent threat.....like that?

That is a good part of what he means......and why people don't want to answer the NCVS accurately.....

Illegal behavior Bill. The examples you give are legal correct? Kleck didn't say what may be considered illegal behavior. I didn't think you had such a soft spot for criminals.

You have to ask Kleck....I don't specifically know all the details.....he is the guy who did the research...ask him....

I don't need to ask him, we have his quote:
"This is true because DGUs typically involve criminal behavior, such as unlawful gun possession, by the gun-using victim, who therefore is often unwilling to report the incident."

He is quite clear. So most defenses in his survey are by someone involved in criminal behavior. When you mention your 1.6 million you really need to add gangs defending their turf, drug dealers defending their stash, bullies intimidating the innocent... Those are a big part of that 1.6 million defenses.

Or, law abiding citizens who are kept from exercising their constitutional right to self defense....who break the law to engage in that right.....right? Notice how he specifically states, "Unlawful gun possession" off the top of his head and not a gang banger shooting back during a drive by.....

And again, the examples I listed go to that point...the 2 guys shooting the criminal holding up the bar....it is illegal to carry a gun in a bar, or depending on the state, illegal to drink while carrying a gun....they left the scene before the police arrived....they fit his definition to a "T" and not yours.....

 

[2aguy]

Brain...I just sent off an email to Dr. Kleck....if he should respond I will let you know....you should email him as well...if you want the actual facts....

 

[Brain357]

They are, but if a criminal shoots another criminal I really don't care. I'm more interested in how many non-criminals use a gun in defense. And since he says typically, we can assume there is illegal behavior in most defenses. So going from 2.5 million with criminals to 100k without really isn't a big stretch.

Yes....someone approaches you in a threatening manner....you draw you weapon they ran away...technically, until you can prove you were under a threat, you have broken the law against brandishing, you might be hit with reckless endangerment.....so like I said...there is too much to know before you dismiss the study on your belief they are all criminals....

Or you shoot, miss, and the guy runs away....discharging a gun in public, a crime...and you have to show you believed you were under an imminent threat.....like that?

That is a good part of what he means......and why people don't want to answer the NCVS accurately.....

Illegal behavior Bill. The examples you give are legal correct? Kleck didn't say what may be considered illegal behavior. I didn't think you had such a soft spot for criminals.

You have to ask Kleck....I don't specifically know all the details.....he is the guy who did the research...ask him....

I don't need to ask him, we have his quote:
"This is true because DGUs typically involve criminal behavior, such as unlawful gun possession, by the gun-using victim, who therefore is often unwilling to report the incident."

He is quite clear. So most defenses in his survey are by someone involved in criminal behavior. When you mention your 1.6 million you really need to add gangs defending their turf, drug dealers defending their stash, bullies intimidating the innocent... Those are a big part of that 1.6 million defenses.

Or, law abiding citizens who are kept from exercising their constitutional right to self defense....who break the law to engage in that right.....right? Notice how he specifically states, "Unlawful gun possession" off the top of his head and not a gang banger shooting back during a drive by.....

And again, the examples I listed go to that point...the 2 guys shooting the criminal holding up the bar....it is illegal to carry a gun in a bar, or depending on the state, illegal to drink while carrying a gun....they left the scene before the police arrived....they fit his definition to a "T" and not yours.....

No. Someone involved in criminal behavior by definition cannot be law abiding. Sorry.

 

[Brain357]

Brain...I just sent off an email to Dr. Kleck....if he should respond I will let you know....you should email him as well...if you want the actual facts....

That might be interesting. Seems unnecessary given we have the study and lots of quotes from him. But I look forward to a response just the same. I hope you asked for an update on magazine capacity.

 

[2aguy]

Yes....someone approaches you in a threatening manner....you draw you weapon they ran away...technically, until you can prove you were under a threat, you have broken the law against brandishing, you might be hit with reckless endangerment.....so like I said...there is too much to know before you dismiss the study on your belief they are all criminals....

Or you shoot, miss, and the guy runs away....discharging a gun in public, a crime...and you have to show you believed you were under an imminent threat.....like that?

That is a good part of what he means......and why people don't want to answer the NCVS accurately.....

Illegal behavior Bill. The examples you give are legal correct? Kleck didn't say what may be considered illegal behavior. I didn't think you had such a soft spot for criminals.

You have to ask Kleck....I don't specifically know all the details.....he is the guy who did the research...ask him....

I don't need to ask him, we have his quote:
"This is true because DGUs typically involve criminal behavior, such as unlawful gun possession, by the gun-using victim, who therefore is often unwilling to report the incident."

He is quite clear. So most defenses in his survey are by someone involved in criminal behavior. When you mention your 1.6 million you really need to add gangs defending their turf, drug dealers defending their stash, bullies intimidating the innocent... Those are a big part of that 1.6 million defenses.

Or, law abiding citizens who are kept from exercising their constitutional right to self defense....who break the law to engage in that right.....right? Notice how he specifically states, "Unlawful gun possession" off the top of his head and not a gang banger shooting back during a drive by.....

And again, the examples I listed go to that point...the 2 guys shooting the criminal holding up the bar....it is illegal to carry a gun in a bar, or depending on the state, illegal to drink while carrying a gun....they left the scene before the police arrived....they fit his definition to a "T" and not yours.....

No. Someone involved in criminal behavior by definition cannot be law abiding. Sorry.

Sorry, someone cannot be breaking the law when engaging in a civil right....the law is breaking the law, not the citizen....

 

[Brain357]

Illegal behavior Bill. The examples you give are legal correct? Kleck didn't say what may be considered illegal behavior. I didn't think you had such a soft spot for criminals.

You have to ask Kleck....I don't specifically know all the details.....he is the guy who did the research...ask him....

I don't need to ask him, we have his quote:
"This is true because DGUs typically involve criminal behavior, such as unlawful gun possession, by the gun-using victim, who therefore is often unwilling to report the incident."

He is quite clear. So most defenses in his survey are by someone involved in criminal behavior. When you mention your 1.6 million you really need to add gangs defending their turf, drug dealers defending their stash, bullies intimidating the innocent... Those are a big part of that 1.6 million defenses.

Or, law abiding citizens who are kept from exercising their constitutional right to self defense....who break the law to engage in that right.....right? Notice how he specifically states, "Unlawful gun possession" off the top of his head and not a gang banger shooting back during a drive by.....

And again, the examples I listed go to that point...the 2 guys shooting the criminal holding up the bar....it is illegal to carry a gun in a bar, or depending on the state, illegal to drink while carrying a gun....they left the scene before the police arrived....they fit his definition to a "T" and not yours.....

No. Someone involved in criminal behavior by definition cannot be law abiding. Sorry.

Sorry, someone cannot be breaking the law when engaging in a civil right....the law is breaking the law, not the citizen....

Sorry but you are starting to not make sense. So I guess now you just decide what laws are ok? Doesn't work that way Bill. That's what criminals do.

 

[2aguy]

It's called civil disobedience.....

 

[Brain357]

It's called civil disobedience.....

Wow you are really soft on criminals.

 

[2aguy]

And some actual perspective on the reporting of this incident and the reality of concealed carry across the United States...

Tragedy of Idaho permit holder illustrates lopsidedness of news coverage on guns CPRC gets extensive news coverage over number of concealed handgun permits in Idaho - Crime Prevention Research Center

But you get an idea of how rare these incidents are by looking at the number of permit holders nationwide, not just those in Idaho. There are now about 12 million concealed handgun permit holders and if these stories of children shooting adults happened at more than a virtually non-existent rate, we would surely be hearing about children killing their parents regularly.

To put it differently, the day before there were at least a couple of news reports around the country about permit holders using concealed handguns to protect people, but neither of those stories got national news coverage.

1) In Fargo, North Dakota, four people were robbing and assaulting a 36-year-old man. They knocked the man unconscious, but fortunately a permit holder was there to stop the attack. Police reported: “passer-by, who has a license to carry a concealed weapon, brandished his gun to end the robbery.”

2) In Kissimmee, Florida, a pastor with a concealed handgun permit protected himself from an employee who he had just had to fire.

 

[Brain357]

And some actual perspective on the reporting of this incident and the reality of concealed carry across the United States...

Tragedy of Idaho permit holder illustrates lopsidedness of news coverage on guns CPRC gets extensive news coverage over number of concealed handgun permits in Idaho - Crime Prevention Research Center

But you get an idea of how rare these incidents are by looking at the number of permit holders nationwide, not just those in Idaho. There are now about 12 million concealed handgun permit holders and if these stories of children shooting adults happened at more than a virtually non-existent rate, we would surely be hearing about children killing their parents regularly.

To put it differently, the day before there were at least a couple of news reports around the country about permit holders using concealed handguns to protect people, but neither of those stories got national news coverage.

1) In Fargo, North Dakota, four people were robbing and assaulting a 36-year-old man. They knocked the man unconscious, but fortunately a permit holder was there to stop the attack. Police reported: “passer-by, who has a license to carry a concealed weapon, brandished his gun to end the robbery.”

2) In Kissimmee, Florida, a pastor with a concealed handgun permit protected himself from an employee who he had just had to fire.

Plenty of bad being done by them also:
VPC - The Violence Policy Center - Concealed Carry Killers

679 people killed by concealed carry holders.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Another law abiding American citizen exercising her Constitutional rights!

Oklahoma mother kills two sons then herself police say - Yahoo News

 

[2aguy]

And some actual perspective on the reporting of this incident and the reality of concealed carry across the United States...

Tragedy of Idaho permit holder illustrates lopsidedness of news coverage on guns CPRC gets extensive news coverage over number of concealed handgun permits in Idaho - Crime Prevention Research Center

But you get an idea of how rare these incidents are by looking at the number of permit holders nationwide, not just those in Idaho. There are now about 12 million concealed handgun permit holders and if these stories of children shooting adults happened at more than a virtually non-existent rate, we would surely be hearing about children killing their parents regularly.

To put it differently, the day before there were at least a couple of news reports around the country about permit holders using concealed handguns to protect people, but neither of those stories got national news coverage.

1) In Fargo, North Dakota, four people were robbing and assaulting a 36-year-old man. They knocked the man unconscious, but fortunately a permit holder was there to stop the attack. Police reported: “passer-by, who has a license to carry a concealed weapon, brandished his gun to end the robbery.”

2) In Kissimmee, Florida, a pastor with a concealed handgun permit protected himself from an employee who he had just had to fire.

Plenty of bad being done by them also:
VPC - The Violence Policy Center - Concealed Carry Killers

679 people killed by concealed carry holders.

You should know better...they are lying to you Brain.....

 

[2aguy]

Another law abiding American citizen exercising her Constitutional rights!

Oklahoma mother kills two sons then herself police say - Yahoo News

And she couldn't have done it without the gun...right?

 

[2aguy]

And some actual perspective on the reporting of this incident and the reality of concealed carry across the United States...

Tragedy of Idaho permit holder illustrates lopsidedness of news coverage on guns CPRC gets extensive news coverage over number of concealed handgun permits in Idaho - Crime Prevention Research Center

But you get an idea of how rare these incidents are by looking at the number of permit holders nationwide, not just those in Idaho. There are now about 12 million concealed handgun permit holders and if these stories of children shooting adults happened at more than a virtually non-existent rate, we would surely be hearing about children killing their parents regularly.

To put it differently, the day before there were at least a couple of news reports around the country about permit holders using concealed handguns to protect people, but neither of those stories got national news coverage.

1) In Fargo, North Dakota, four people were robbing and assaulting a 36-year-old man. They knocked the man unconscious, but fortunately a permit holder was there to stop the attack. Police reported: “passer-by, who has a license to carry a concealed weapon, brandished his gun to end the robbery.”

2) In Kissimmee, Florida, a pastor with a concealed handgun permit protected himself from an employee who he had just had to fire.

Plenty of bad being done by them also:
VPC - The Violence Policy Center - Concealed Carry Killers

679 people killed by concealed carry holders.

And someone actually checking the data from the anti gunner nuts....

CPRC at National Review Bogus Gun-Control Numbers To prove that concealed handguns are dangerous the Violence Policy Center cooks the books - Crime Prevention Research Center

In fact, despite continued attacks by gun-control organizations, permit holders almost never commit violent crimes with their guns.

Nonetheless, this past week, just in time for the NRA convention, gun-control advocates were at it again, touting ridiculous charges that concealed-carry permits were responsible for 636 deaths nationwide over the seven years from May 2007 to March 2014.

The Violence Policy Center regularly puts out these bogus charges in a report called “Concealed Carry Killers.” But how does it claim to arrive at these numbers?

The VPC collects cases of permit holders’ abusing their permitted concealed handguns for each state. For Michigan, for example, it cites state-police reports on permit holders indicating that 185 died from suicide during the period 2007 through 2012. Surely some alarm bells should have gone off, with Michigan suicides supposedly making up 29 percent of all 636 deaths nationwide the VPC attributed to permitted concealed handguns.

But more importantly, the suicides are not in any meaningful way linked to the issue of carrying a permitted concealed handgun outside of one’s home. If you look at page 2 in the latest report from the Michigan State Police, you will see that in the listing of suicides, there is no indication of specific cause of death. The report merely notes that 56 permit holders committed suicide, without saying whether any or all of them used a gun. Interestingly, the suicide rate among permit holders in Michigan in 2010 (13.3 per 100,000 permit holders) is lower than the rate in the general adult population (16.30). But typically suicides — with or without guns — take place at home. So, again, what would these numbers have to do with the concealed-carry debate?

Now a look at the murder and manslaughter statistics as presented by the Violence Policy Center report. These cases would surely be relevant, but they are not counted correctly. This is how the Michigan State Police report the numbers:

2007–08: Pending 5, Convicted 0
2008–09: Pending 0, Convicted 1
2009–10: Pending 1, Convicted 2
2010–11: Pending 5, Convicted 4
2011–12: Pending 3, Convicted 4
Total: Pending 14, Convicted 11

In other words, during 2007–08, five cases were pending and there were no convictions.

The Violence Policy Center makes several fundamental mistakes. First, it can’t add simple numbers up correctly. While the VPC claims 20 pending cases and 14 convictions, the Michigan State Police report a total of 14 and 11 cases respectively.

Secondly, since it can take years for a murder case to go to trial, some of the homicides may have occurred well before 2007. In addition, the Michigan State Police report doesn’t provide information on how the murder was committed, so gun murders make up only a portion of this total.

 

[2aguy]

Another law abiding American citizen exercising her Constitutional rights!

Oklahoma mother kills two sons then herself police say - Yahoo News

Well.....is there a link then....if you are a mother and have a gun..will you kill fewer children....because this woman in Australia....with strict gun control....killed 7 children...her own and a niece...with a knife...do we make a causation off of that?

Australian mother accused of killing 7 kids and her niece - NY Daily News

Australian police have arrested a mother who allegedly killed seven of her children, as well as a niece, in a bloody knife attack.

The 37-year-old woman, identified by The Australian as Mersane Warria, was being treated for stab wounds at a hospital and placed under guard, police said Saturday (local time).

The children ranged in age from 18 months to 14 years. One of the victims is the woman’s niece. The rest are her own children.