I will not Bow!

[Phoenall]

They already have their rights they just need to negotiate a peace and borders.

Territorial integrity is a right. Palestine's international borders should be non negotiable.

Palestine has no internationally recognized borders.
You have yet to show a CURRENT map of Palestine that clearly shows and marks those borders. All you have is the partition plan map.

The only map that does show palestines borders is this one from 1920

Note it includes Jordan

 

[Phoenall]

Not a hypocrite, just posting fact, which is what I always do and is something those of your ilk should do.

Why should I kiss a carpet? And, do you think that insulting the practices of a particular religion somehow enhances your simpleton image?

I don't think he's insulting a religion. Insulting a cancer isn't bad IMO.

I see, so to you Islam is not a religion, but a cancer. The Nazi in you comes to the surface easily. You would be banned on any other board for the disgusting racist comments you make except maybe on Stormfront. Congratulations.

And before you ask, the UN Convention includes cultural (religious) bias as racism.

Calling islam a cancer is being nice as it acts just like a cancer and spreads invasively, destroying as it creeps across the land. This is why so many people in different nations see islam as evil and cancerous.

 

[Phoenall]

What circumstances were different that makes the 1988 declaration valid but not the 1948 declaration?

In 1948, they tried to declare independence on land ALREADY DECLARED INDEPENDENT by Israel.
Which is why they had to do it again in 1988.

What land did Israel declare?

Link?

here you go

Declaration of Israel's Independence, 1948 . Truman . WGBH American Experience | PBS

On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a Resolution for the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine, and called upon the inhabitants of the country to take such steps as may be necessary on their part to put the plan into effect.

This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their Independent State may not be revoked. It is, moreover, the self-evident right of the Jewish people to be a nation, as all other nations, in its own Sovereign State.

 

[Kondor3]

I don't think he's insulting a religion. Insulting a cancer isn't bad IMO.

I see, so to you Islam is not a religion, but a cancer. The Nazi in you comes to the surface easily. You would be banned on any other board for the disgusting racist comments you make except maybe on Stormfront. Congratulations.

And before you ask, the UN Convention includes cultural (religious) bias as racism.

BFD. I have been calling Islam a cancer for over 50 years and the whole world knows it. It's just that people and countries are scared shitless of offending the OPEC countries but the worm is beginning to turn.

Gutsy pronouncement.

In my humble and amateur-caliber opinion... you are correct... all disingenuous and self-serving Godwin-esque brickbats to the contrary notwithstanding.

Militant Islam, at any rate, is a cancer on the face of the Earth.

Islam is not merely a religious belief-system.

It is a social and legal and political and cultural conquest and control mechanism, embedded within the framework of a superficial and symbolic spiritual-religious belief system; hiding behind its religious facade, to attempt to shield it from the same treatment accorded to other mechanisms associated with conquest and control.

It is medieval and backwards and primitive in nature, largely intolerant of and hostile to other religious and cultural systems despite its protestations and inconsistent and hypocritical charter-writings to the contrary, spawned from the blood-soaked hands of its pedophile founder, and it drags along with it, its primary ball and chain, a collection of canon law that remains operative in civic and political and judicial life in the realms in which it holds sway; grounded in its bloodthirsty founding and conquests.

It is a poison pill and alien to Western society and history and culture and traditions and mores and spirituality and political systems and governance and vitality; passive where outnumbered, obnoxiously aggressive and demanding when it achieves a majority; not to be trusted under any circumstances; carefully tolerated in our own domains, but watched closely for the encroachments which it consistently and invariably attempts.

If it was purely a religious system, I could bring myself to be more welcoming, but it's not; far from it. It is dangerous.

 

[Phoenall]

Holy smokescreen, Batman!

You have nothing.

I wouldn't go quite that far, Tinny.

========================================

What have you got, Tinny?

As I've said... the Israeli land-claim was whatever land they controlled.

And they had (and have, and will have) the power to sustain that claim.

Nothing more is needed, in the Real World.

It is inadmissible to acquire land through the threat or use of force.

But not by treaty which is how Israel will win in the end as the HoAP refuse to meet in peace talks.

 

[Phoenall]

What land did Israel declare?

Link?

The land allotted to them by the partition plan.

Stop asking questions you know the answer too and stop playing stupid.

I've never encountered someone like you who seems to be wrong about every claim. You truly are one of a kind Tinmore.

Where did Israel claim that land?

Link?

Here

Declaration of Israel's Independence, 1948 . Truman . WGBH American Experience | PBS

 

[P F Tinmore]

In 1948, they tried to declare independence on land ALREADY DECLARED INDEPENDENT by Israel.
Which is why they had to do it again in 1988.

What land did Israel declare?

Link?

here you go

Declaration of Israel's Independence, 1948 . Truman . WGBH American Experience | PBS

On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a Resolution for the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine, and called upon the inhabitants of the country to take such steps as may be necessary on their part to put the plan into effect.

This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their Independent State may not be revoked. It is, moreover, the self-evident right of the Jewish people to be a nation, as all other nations, in its own Sovereign State.

When did Israel claim the proposed borders of resolution 181 as their own?

Link?

 

[Phoenall]

Where did Israel claim that land?

Link?

It's called a map, ever heard of that? Then look it up. It's the part called Israel.

Israel is defined on all maps by the 1949 armistice lines.

The armistice lines were specifically not to be political or territorial borders.

Try this instead which is the original demarcation until 1967 when Un resolution 242 came into being

 

[Phoenall]

Israel is defined on all maps by the 1949 armistice lines.

The armistice lines were specifically not to be political or territorial borders.

Armistice lines? They are still at war. Like I've said before, if the arabs want to surrender, then lines can be set.

Which Arab states surrounding Israel are still at war with Israel? Maybe Syria.

Iran, Iraq, Palestine for starters

 

[Hossfly]

montelatici, et al,

You failed to read the resolution. It makes no difference if Palestine "declared" independence when the population is occupied and under alien domination, the resolution is clear that:

"Affirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination"

Until the domination ends, the non-Jews are "entitled to the right of self-determination to restore to themselves that right by any means at their disposal;"

Besides, Article 51 of the UN Charter covers the non-Jew's right to self defense individually or collectively.

(GENERAL DISAGREEMENT)

I generally disagree that the Palestinians have any right to use "any means at their disposal" under General Assembly Resolution 2649 (XXV) (30 November 1970). It violates the basic Declaration of Principles and the basic objectives of the UN Charter.

(THE CONSEQUENCES)

If you invoke Chapter VII, Article 51 of the Charter, (even if we overlook the questionable applicability and standing) then you are essentially stating that the dispute is a "war" over violation of international lines of demarcation (1949 Armistice Lines) established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is otherwise bound to respect.

(Questionable Applicability and Standing)

• Today's State of Palestine was not then and is not now a Member of the United Nations. In 1967, the West Bank was not Palestinian Territory, but sovereign territory of Jordan. The State of Jordan was invaded and not Palestinian Territory.

• The occupation of today's West Bank (Jordan) was settled via the Treaty of Peace between The State of Israel and The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan 26 October 1994, when (pursuant to Article 3) the boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), became the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Israel and Jordan, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967. It should be remembered that on 31 July 1988, The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan made the decision to sever legal and administrative ties with the West Bank was made.

• Impact of the Timeline:
  • June 1967:
    • Israel, after an artillery bombardment of Jerusalem and other Israeli cities along the Green Line; and after Jordan launched an infantry invasion of Jewish Jerusalem; Israel advances in defense to counter Jordanian offensive military action. West Bank is occupied Jordanian territory (oJt) by Israel.
  • July 1988:
    • King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank.
  • November 1988:
    • The Palestine National Council hereby declares the establishment of the State of Palestine in the land of Palestine with its capital at Jerusalem.
      • October 1994:
        • • Israel-Jordan Treaty: Secure and recognized international boundary set between Israel and Jordan.

It would seem that Israel was NOT established inside Palestine, but the the State of Palestine was established inside the oJt, later the Israeli border internationally recognized by both Jordan and Israel through treaty.

Thus, if there is a "war" (a Chapter VII event under the Charter), it is a quasi-Civil War between the State of Israel and the people of the unincorporated West Bank (people of the former oJt) ceded to Israel by Jordan. The consequence being that it is a domestic issue; outside international law. Clearly the Peace Treaty between Israel and Jordan have the boundary down the Jordan River and through the center of the Dead Sea.

It is agreed that where the boundary follows a river, in the event of natural changes in the course of the flow of the river as described in Annex I (a), the boundary shall follow the new course of the flow. In the event of any other changes the boundary shall not be affected unless otherwise agreed.

One side of the boundary is Israel and the other side Jordan. Is that how you read it?

Most Respectfully,
R

A couple of problems with your post.

1) The West Bank was not part of Jordan. Jordan attempted to annex the West Bank and pretended that it had but the world was not with them on that.

2) The 1949 UN armistice agreement (that Israel signed) specifically called the land west of Jordan (the Negev) Palestine. When did Israel acquire that land?

Answer:
2. When Moses got his marching orders from Yahweh.

 

[Phoenall]

montelatici, et al,

You failed to read the resolution. It makes no difference if Palestine "declared" independence when the population is occupied and under alien domination, the resolution is clear that:

"Affirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination"

Until the domination ends, the non-Jews are "entitled to the right of self-determination to restore to themselves that right by any means at their disposal;"

Besides, Article 51 of the UN Charter covers the non-Jew's right to self defense individually or collectively.

(GENERAL DISAGREEMENT)

I generally disagree that the Palestinians have any right to use "any means at their disposal" under General Assembly Resolution 2649 (XXV) (30 November 1970). It violates the basic Declaration of Principles and the basic objectives of the UN Charter.

(THE CONSEQUENCES)

If you invoke Chapter VII, Article 51 of the Charter, (even if we overlook the questionable applicability and standing) then you are essentially stating that the dispute is a "war" over violation of international lines of demarcation (1949 Armistice Lines) established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is otherwise bound to respect.

(Questionable Applicability and Standing)

• Today's State of Palestine was not then and is not now a Member of the United Nations. In 1967, the West Bank was not Palestinian Territory, but sovereign territory of Jordan. The State of Jordan was invaded and not Palestinian Territory.

• The occupation of today's West Bank (Jordan) was settled via the Treaty of Peace between The State of Israel and The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan 26 October 1994, when (pursuant to Article 3) the boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), became the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Israel and Jordan, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967. It should be remembered that on 31 July 1988, The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan made the decision to sever legal and administrative ties with the West Bank was made.

• Impact of the Timeline:
  • June 1967:
    • Israel, after an artillery bombardment of Jerusalem and other Israeli cities along the Green Line; and after Jordan launched an infantry invasion of Jewish Jerusalem; Israel advances in defense to counter Jordanian offensive military action. West Bank is occupied Jordanian territory (oJt) by Israel.
  • July 1988:
    • King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank.
  • November 1988:
    • The Palestine National Council hereby declares the establishment of the State of Palestine in the land of Palestine with its capital at Jerusalem.
      • October 1994:
        • • Israel-Jordan Treaty: Secure and recognized international boundary set between Israel and Jordan.

It would seem that Israel was NOT established inside Palestine, but the the State of Palestine was established inside the oJt, later the Israeli border internationally recognized by both Jordan and Israel through treaty.

Thus, if there is a "war" (a Chapter VII event under the Charter), it is a quasi-Civil War between the State of Israel and the people of the unincorporated West Bank (people of the former oJt) ceded to Israel by Jordan. The consequence being that it is a domestic issue; outside international law. Clearly the Peace Treaty between Israel and Jordan have the boundary down the Jordan River and through the center of the Dead Sea.

It is agreed that where the boundary follows a river, in the event of natural changes in the course of the flow of the river as described in Annex I (a), the boundary shall follow the new course of the flow. In the event of any other changes the boundary shall not be affected unless otherwise agreed.

One side of the boundary is Israel and the other side Jordan. Is that how you read it?

Most Respectfully,
R

A couple of problems with your post.

1) The West Bank was not part of Jordan. Jordan attempted to annex the West Bank and pretended that it had but the world was not with them on that.

2) The 1949 UN armistice agreement (that Israel signed) specifically called the land west of Jordan (the Negev) Palestine. When did Israel acquire that land?

Couple of problems with your reply

1) the west banks occupants declared to become part of Jordan, making it a show of free determination on their part. It did not need International approval as it was the occupants decision.

2) No it didn't as this map shows

Armistice Demarcation Lines of 1949:


Arab territory until 1967;

Israel

 

[toastman]

What land did Israel declare?

Link?

here you go

Declaration of Israel's Independence, 1948 . Truman . WGBH American Experience | PBS

On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a Resolution for the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine, and called upon the inhabitants of the country to take such steps as may be necessary on their part to put the plan into effect.

This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their Independent State may not be revoked. It is, moreover, the self-evident right of the Jewish people to be a nation, as all other nations, in its own Sovereign State.

When did Israel claim the proposed borders of resolution 181 as their own?

Link?

What does that have to do with anything??

 

[Kondor3]

What land did Israel declare?

Link?

here you go

Declaration of Israel's Independence, 1948 . Truman . WGBH American Experience | PBS

On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a Resolution for the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine, and called upon the inhabitants of the country to take such steps as may be necessary on their part to put the plan into effect.

This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their Independent State may not be revoked. It is, moreover, the self-evident right of the Jewish people to be a nation, as all other nations, in its own Sovereign State.

When did Israel claim the proposed borders of resolution 181 as their own?

Link?

Implicit in the Israeli Declaration of Statehood, referencing the UN Resolution of November 29, 1947, I would think, yes?

 

[Phoenall]

What land did Israel declare?

Link?

here you go

Declaration of Israel's Independence, 1948 . Truman . WGBH American Experience | PBS

On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a Resolution for the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine, and called upon the inhabitants of the country to take such steps as may be necessary on their part to put the plan into effect.

This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their Independent State may not be revoked. It is, moreover, the self-evident right of the Jewish people to be a nation, as all other nations, in its own Sovereign State.

When did Israel claim the proposed borders of resolution 181 as their own?

Link?

The one posted above tells you may 13th 1948

 

[montelatici]

I don't think he's insulting a religion. Insulting a cancer isn't bad IMO.

I see, so to you Islam is not a religion, but a cancer. The Nazi in you comes to the surface easily. You would be banned on any other board for the disgusting racist comments you make except maybe on Stormfront. Congratulations.

And before you ask, the UN Convention includes cultural (religious) bias as racism.

Calling islam a cancer is being nice as it acts just like a cancer and spreads invasively, destroying as it creeps across the land. This is why so many people in different nations see islam as evil and cancerous.

i This is why so many people in different nations see islam as evil and cancerous.

There are as many people in different countries that have prejudices against all kinds of religions. It is the brainwashed and racists such as yourself that single out one particular religion and call it evil and cancerous. But keep up your racist posts, it is telling.

Some people find Hinduism evil:

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150150921590058

 

[RoccoR]

When did Israel claim the proposed borders of resolution 181 as their own?

Link?

LINK

V/R
R

 

[Hossfly]

I see, so to you Islam is not a religion, but a cancer. The Nazi in you comes to the surface easily. You would be banned on any other board for the disgusting racist comments you make except maybe on Stormfront. Congratulations.

And before you ask, the UN Convention includes cultural (religious) bias as racism.

Calling islam a cancer is being nice as it acts just like a cancer and spreads invasively, destroying as it creeps across the land. This is why so many people in different nations see islam as evil and cancerous.

i This is why so many people in different nations see islam as evil and cancerous.

There are as many people in different countries that have prejudices against all kinds of religions. It is the brainwashed and racists such as yourself that single out one particular religion and call it evil and cancerous. But keep up your racist posts, it is telling.

Some people find Hinduism evil:

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150150921590058

It isn't Hindism that spreads terror around the world under the guise of "religion", but as an Islamist you don't see or acknowledge the cancerous spread.. Understood.

 

[P F Tinmore]

When did Israel claim the proposed borders of resolution 181 as their own?

Link?

LINK

V/R
R

Your link does not mention borders.

 

[montelatici]

Calling islam a cancer is being nice as it acts just like a cancer and spreads invasively, destroying as it creeps across the land. This is why so many people in different nations see islam as evil and cancerous.

i This is why so many people in different nations see islam as evil and cancerous.

There are as many people in different countries that have prejudices against all kinds of religions. It is the brainwashed and racists such as yourself that single out one particular religion and call it evil and cancerous. But keep up your racist posts, it is telling.

Some people find Hinduism evil:

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150150921590058

It isn't Hindism that spreads terror around the world under the guise of "religion", but as an Islamist you don't see or acknowledge the cancerous spread.. Understood.

I don't call any religion evil or cancerous. I am not a racist.

 

[Hossfly]

When did Israel claim the proposed borders of resolution 181 as their own?

Link?

LINK

V/R
R

Tinmore would tell you that all the signers were foreigners thus it is invalid.