I want to talk about what I see as a bad faith argument from the right

[Confounding]

This is what they incorrectly call themselves.

That's because in the same breath Republicans will call universal healthcare and public college communism/socialism. Anybody with integrity and a brain can see that Bernie wants to do what Scandinavia does.

 

[shockedcanadian]

The definition of socialism isn't the same as the old textbooks, it's not just state control of means of production. Citizens have to look at the size of government, it's intervention in the economy and individuals lives, and in particular as I've learned in Canada; covert "control" of companies.

If you open up an IBM office in Toronto or London, and the covert police are tampering with Human Resources, putting their patsies in positions of management and executive, that's socialism in 2019. They don't need to overtly control the business, in fact, that's nt even ideal, it's all about manipulating employees within the company and treating the company as their personal playground. Dirty and deceptive.

America is about competition and free market, socialism today is Fiefdoms. You are born into government, you've got it made, if not, you will be born and die poor. This is the Canadian system today. It's not based on competition or best and brightest, it's sheer exploitation of shareholders and foreign businesses.

I suspect the Scandinavian system is similar and I'm quite confident England operates precisely like this. How many others? Impossible to know, it's all covert. The general indicator should be "how many State run services, meddling, regulations and operations exist?" I would guess the more they possess, the more it is broadly used in the nation.

THIS is socialism. The more government control and access you provide, the worse the intrusion in your life and economy. The more control you relinquish, it's a guarantee.

Let me just ask this...

Do you agree that Bernie's ideology proposes that we do exactly what they do in Scandinavia?

It doesn't matter what he or anyone proposes, the more power and influence you give to a collection of citizens miles away and far removed from your personal interests and circumstances, the better the chances that full blown, fascist socialism becomes a reality.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Right wingers regularly call the left socialist, but then when the left points to Scandinavia as an example of what they want it will often be said that "Oh, well they're not actually socialist. Try again." Oh, good, well then neither is Bernie, because there isn't a single thing he advocates for that they're not already doing over there. You can't call people like Bernie socialist and then point at Scandinavia and say "Not socialist!" You're defeating your own argument.

I'm sorry, I meant to say "Communist", in the modern all-encompassing definition.

 

[Edgetho]

The definition of socialism isn't the same as the old textbooks, it's not just state control of means of production. Citizens have to look at the size of government, it's intervention in the economy and individuals lives, and in particular as I've learned in Canada; covert "control" of companies.

If you open up an IBM office in Toronto or London, and the covert police are tampering with Human Resources, putting their patsies in positions of management and executive, that's socialism in 2019. They don't need to overtly control the business, in fact, that's nt even ideal, it's all about manipulating employees within the company and treating the company as their personal playground. Dirty and deceptive.

America is about competition and free market, socialism today is Fiefdoms. You are born into government, you've got it made, if not, you will be born and die poor. This is the Canadian system today. It's not based on competition or best and brightest, it's sheer exploitation of shareholders and foreign businesses.

I suspect the Scandinavian system is similar and I'm quite confident England operates precisely like this. How many others? Impossible to know, it's all covert.

THIS is socialism. The more government control and access you provide, the worse the intrusion in your life and economy. The more control you relinquish, it's a guarantee.

None of that is socialism.

It's an attempt by people to establish a "Third Way". Something between the harshness of Capitalism and the Totalitarian excess of true socialism.

Capitalism is a very difficult system. Not everybody is capable of success, however modest, in a Capitalist system.

It's hard work and there is often no safety net for those who either fail or are unlucky.

socialism guarantees equality to all. Except the apparatchiks and nomenklatura, of course. They're (as Orwell would say) more equal than some.

Capitalism SUCKS. It is difficult, it is hard work and it is often unfair.

But it's better than any other economic system ever devised.

OBTW, National Socialism was an attempt at a 'Third Way'.

So was Fascism.

A true Third Way is not out of the question, AFAIC.

The problem is, and I mean this, it absolutely can NOT be administered by scum of the ******* Earth dimocrap FILTH.

Everything they touch turns to shit. EVERYTHING.

You get dimocrap SCUM out of the picture and I'd be willing to give it a shot. And I'd bet it would work.

But dimocraps? The absolute scum of the Earth. No morals, no principles, no honor, no code of conduct..... Nothing.

THE worst, most disgusting political party to ever infect the surface of the Planet.

 

[Butch_Coolidge]

Right wingers regularly call the left socialist, but then when the left points to Scandinavia as an example of what they want it will often be said that "Oh, well they're not actually socialist. Try again." Oh, good, well then neither is Bernie, because there isn't a single thing he advocates for that they're not already doing over there. You can't call people like Bernie socialist and then point at Scandinavia and say "Not socialist!" You're defeating your own argument.

So move to Scandinavia. Unfortunately, the left has radically split. Some morons are proposing nothing really, other than lining their pockets initially and having the country go bust shortly down the line. The things they are advocating for are absurd. It’s really easy to get naive college kids, and people who have dropped out of life to go for anything that promises utopia and everything free. It’s nothing more than a Ponzi scheme, that has kept politicians in money and perks forever. Anything that starts out with the projected cost of a hundred trillion dollars, is absolutely ridiculous. They are throwing money into a high speed railway in California that can never be. Everyone knows it. And they are duping kids and gullible scrubs to lose their minds protesting for nothing. Contrary to media bullshit, the U.S. is not in a downward spiral. Everything is not panic and Armageddon. Hard work cannot be avoided, if you want to secure your future. And flipping burgers was never meant to be a rewarding career. Make the wrong career choice, it’s not anyone’s responsibility but yours. You have the right to work, and provide for your family. You should have no expectations of the government providing for you. The people pushing this fallacy all have hefty paychecks, lifetime benefits, expense accounts and several homes. They fly to global warming conventions in private jets, and claim to be concerned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Confounding]

The definition of socialism isn't the same as the old textbooks, it's not just state control of means of production. Citizens have to look at the size of government, it's intervention in the economy and individuals lives, and in particular as I've learned in Canada; covert "control" of companies.

If you open up an IBM office in Toronto or London, and the covert police are tampering with Human Resources, putting their patsies in positions of management and executive, that's socialism in 2019. They don't need to overtly control the business, in fact, that's nt even ideal, it's all about manipulating employees within the company and treating the company as their personal playground. Dirty and deceptive.

America is about competition and free market, socialism today is Fiefdoms. You are born into government, you've got it made, if not, you will be born and die poor. This is the Canadian system today. It's not based on competition or best and brightest, it's sheer exploitation of shareholders and foreign businesses.

I suspect the Scandinavian system is similar and I'm quite confident England operates precisely like this. How many others? Impossible to know, it's all covert. The general indicator should be "how many State run services, meddling, regulations and operations exist?" I would guess the more they possess, the more it is broadly used in the nation.

THIS is socialism. The more government control and access you provide, the worse the intrusion in your life and economy. The more control you relinquish, it's a guarantee.

Let me just ask this...

Do you agree that Bernie's ideology proposes that we do exactly what they do in Scandinavia?

It doesn't matter what he or anyone proposes, the more power and influence you give to a collection of citizens miles away and far removed from your personal interests and circumstances, the better the chances that full blown, fascist socialism becomes a reality.

Right, fine. I don't want to argue that right now.

I simply want you to state whether or not you believe Bernie wants to do what Scandinavia does.

 

[koshergrl]

Right wingers regularly call the left socialist, but then when the left points to Scandinavia as an example of what they want it will often be said that "Oh, well they're not actually socialist. Try again." Oh, good, well then neither is Bernie, because there isn't a single thing he advocates for that they're not already doing over there. You can't call people like Bernie socialist and then point at Scandinavia and say "Not socialist!" You're defeating your own argument.

Scandinavians are a socialist society with groups of people, and communities, collectively owning corporations, companies etc...which they manage according to a capitalist model. The government doesn't control their means of production. The people do, and they manage them for the purpose of gaining $$$ for the people who own it.

 

[Edgetho]

Bernie Sanders HIMSELF sez he's a socialist.

Bernie is a social democrat. You're too ignorant to know the difference but there are some very important ones. The meaning of these labels are widely misunderstood so there is often confusion.

The relevant part is the kinds of policies Bernie actually stands for. They are completely in line with the Scandinavian models. Bernie has been pointing at them and saying "Let's do that." for ******* decades.

Idiot

 

[shockedcanadian]

The definition of socialism isn't the same as the old textbooks, it's not just state control of means of production. Citizens have to look at the size of government, it's intervention in the economy and individuals lives, and in particular as I've learned in Canada; covert "control" of companies.

If you open up an IBM office in Toronto or London, and the covert police are tampering with Human Resources, putting their patsies in positions of management and executive, that's socialism in 2019. They don't need to overtly control the business, in fact, that's nt even ideal, it's all about manipulating employees within the company and treating the company as their personal playground. Dirty and deceptive.

America is about competition and free market, socialism today is Fiefdoms. You are born into government, you've got it made, if not, you will be born and die poor. This is the Canadian system today. It's not based on competition or best and brightest, it's sheer exploitation of shareholders and foreign businesses.

I suspect the Scandinavian system is similar and I'm quite confident England operates precisely like this. How many others? Impossible to know, it's all covert. The general indicator should be "how many State run services, meddling, regulations and operations exist?" I would guess the more they possess, the more it is broadly used in the nation.

THIS is socialism. The more government control and access you provide, the worse the intrusion in your life and economy. The more control you relinquish, it's a guarantee.

Let me just ask this...

Do you agree that Bernie's ideology proposes that we do exactly what they do in Scandinavia?

It doesn't matter what he or anyone proposes, the more power and influence you give to a collection of citizens miles away and far removed from your personal interests and circumstances, the better the chances that full blown, fascist socialism becomes a reality.

Right, fine. I don't want to argue that right now.

I simply want you to state whether or not you believe Bernie wants to do what Scandinavia does.

I can't read his mind to know exactly what he wants, I can only look at history and what I know exists in so-called "mixed economies" like Canada. Without American capitalism, Canadas economy would be a third of what it is. Similar impact on other socialist nations, I assure you.

Many people with noble objectives do more harm than good as they don't understand the effect, or they understand it and don't care since they will be in a good position.

 

[task0778]

Ok, let's start with taxes. Left wants a more progressive tax structure, right? Raise taxes on the rich, right? Well, they don't do that in the Scandinavian countries, over there the tax base is far broader. Even people who earn below average income pay up to 60 percent in taxes.


Swedes' personal income tax can be as little as 29 per cent of their pay, but most people (anyone earning over £32,000) will pay between 49 and 60 per cent through a combination of local government and state income tax.

'If you start talking to someone in Britain, you can be fairly sure that they will end up saying that taxes are too high. In Sweden, you can't do the same,' he says. 'Most people trust the state to manage taxes well. There's a broad, deep faith that the money going into the welfare state will be employed usefully.'

Sweden: Where tax goes up to 60 per cent, and everybody's happy paying it


Is Bernie for a wealth tax? Or a death tax? Many of the Dems are. You don't find that over there either.

Do you trust our gov't to spend our tax dollars wisely? I sure as hell don't. Then there's this: they don't have a gov't imposed minimum wage. And they believe in being competitive globally, so they keep their corporate tax rates lower than ours.

Didja know that Sweden adopted a universal school choice system in the 1990s? According to a study published by the Institute for the Study of Labor, the expansion of private schooling and competition brought about by the Swedish free-market educational reforms “improved average educational performance both at the end of compulsory school and in the long run in terms of high school grades, university attendance, and years of schooling.”

No doubt there are other issues, but this is all I can think of at the moment.

 

[Confounding]

Bernie Sanders HIMSELF sez he's a socialist.

Bernie is a social democrat. You're too ignorant to know the difference but there are some very important ones. The meaning of these labels are widely misunderstood so there is often confusion.

The relevant part is the kinds of policies Bernie actually stands for. They are completely in line with the Scandinavian models. Bernie has been pointing at them and saying "Let's do that." for ******* decades.

Idiot

Bernie defines socialism differently than you do. By and large he does not want to do anything they don't do in Scandinavia. You're having issues right now because your understanding of these things is about ankle deep. If you don't see what Scandinavia does as socialism then according to your own views Bernie isn't a socialist either. I am amazed that you still don't understand.

 

[Confounding]

Ok, let's start with taxes. Left wants a more progressive tax structure, right? Raise taxes on the rich, right? Well, they don't do that in the Scandinavian countries, over there the tax base is far broader. Even people who earn below average income pay up to 60 percent in taxes.


Swedes' personal income tax can be as little as 29 per cent of their pay, but most people (anyone earning over £32,000) will pay between 49 and 60 per cent through a combination of local government and state income tax.

'If you start talking to someone in Britain, you can be fairly sure that they will end up saying that taxes are too high. In Sweden, you can't do the same,' he says. 'Most people trust the state to manage taxes well. There's a broad, deep faith that the money going into the welfare state will be employed usefully.'

Sweden: Where tax goes up to 60 per cent, and everybody's happy paying it


Is Bernie for a wealth tax? Or a death tax? Many of the Dems are. You don't find that over there either.

Do you trust our gov't to spend our tax dollars wisely? I sure as hell don't. Then there's this: they don't have a gov't imposed minimum wage. And they believe in being competitive globally, so they keep their corporate tax rates lower than ours.

Didja know that Sweden adopted a universal school choice system in the 1990s? According to a study published by the Institute for the Study of Labor, the expansion of private schooling and competition brought about by the Swedish free-market educational reforms “improved average educational performance both at the end of compulsory school and in the long run in terms of high school grades, university attendance, and years of schooling.”

No doubt there are other issues, but this is all I can think of at the moment.

Do you think Bernie is a socialist?

Do you think the Scandinavian countries are socialist?

If your answers to those two questions aren't the same then you really need to rethink some things.

Even if there are some very minor differences his major positions are the same. Whatever label you would give their way of doing things is the same label you should give Bernie.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Ok, let's start with taxes. Left wants a more progressive tax structure, right? Raise taxes on the rich, right? Well, they don't do that in the Scandinavian countries, over there the tax base is far broader. Even people who earn below average income pay up to 60 percent in taxes.


Swedes' personal income tax can be as little as 29 per cent of their pay, but most people (anyone earning over £32,000) will pay between 49 and 60 per cent through a combination of local government and state income tax.

'If you start talking to someone in Britain, you can be fairly sure that they will end up saying that taxes are too high. In Sweden, you can't do the same,' he says. 'Most people trust the state to manage taxes well. There's a broad, deep faith that the money going into the welfare state will be employed usefully.'

Sweden: Where tax goes up to 60 per cent, and everybody's happy paying it


Is Bernie for a wealth tax? Or a death tax? Many of the Dems are. You don't find that over there either.

Do you trust our gov't to spend our tax dollars wisely? I sure as hell don't. Then there's this: they don't have a gov't imposed minimum wage. And they believe in being competitive globally, so they keep their corporate tax rates lower than ours.

Didja know that Sweden adopted a universal school choice system in the 1990s? According to a study published by the Institute for the Study of Labor, the expansion of private schooling and competition brought about by the Swedish free-market educational reforms “improved average educational performance both at the end of compulsory school and in the long run in terms of high school grades, university attendance, and years of schooling.”

No doubt there are other issues, but this is all I can think of at the moment.

Do you think Bernie is a socialist?

Do you think the Scandinavian countries are socialist?

If your answers to those two questions aren't the same then you really need to rethink some things.

Even if there are some very minor differences his major positions are the same. Whatever label you would give their way of doing things is the same label you should give Bernie.

I think you don't appreciate the various degrees of socialism. All systems on earth have socialism characteristics, there is a wide continuum. Too many are pretending to be capitalist while they over tax, apply regulations and forced payments you must make for the "flavor of the month" or "emergency of the day". Others covertly interfere and control companies while pretending to have little Crown corporations.

To me, you have to view other nations as being more or less socialist than America, the bigger the government and interference and controls in the lives of citizens, the more socialist they are.

Less is better.

 

[Crepitus]

The Scandinavians have all told Bernie to STFU, because they have market-based economies.

Can you tell me some things that Bernie wants that they're not already doing over there?

Not the point.

Having an immense welfare state doesn't change the market-based economic model....Strictly speaking, Scandinavia is not socialist.

Then strictly speaking neither is Bernie Sanders.

 

[Confounding]

Scandinavians are a socialist society with groups of people, and communities, collectively owning corporations, companies etc...which they manage according to a capitalist model. The government doesn't control their means of production. The people do, and they manage them for the purpose of gaining $$$ for the people who own it.

And do you or do you not think that's what Bernie wants?

 

[hadit]

The Scandinavians have all told Bernie to STFU, because they have market-based economies.

Socialism, properly defined, is ownership of the means of all production in the hands of The State.

If anyone is disingenuously saying "it's not real socialism", it's leftists when you point to its litany of total failures and abject despotism.

right wing special pleading with political jargon is all you have.

the Proof is, you cannot explain the definition.

When you stop creating your own definitions for words, let us know.

 

[Confounding]

The Scandinavians have all told Bernie to STFU, because they have market-based economies.

Socialism, properly defined, is ownership of the means of all production in the hands of The State.

If anyone is disingenuously saying "it's not real socialism", it's leftists when you point to its litany of total failures and abject despotism.

right wing special pleading with political jargon is all you have.

the Proof is, you cannot explain the definition.

When you stop creating your own definitions for words, let us know.

It can all get very confusing when Republicans call everything communism/socialism.

 

[Confounding]

Ok, let's start with taxes. Left wants a more progressive tax structure, right? Raise taxes on the rich, right? Well, they don't do that in the Scandinavian countries, over there the tax base is far broader. Even people who earn below average income pay up to 60 percent in taxes.


Swedes' personal income tax can be as little as 29 per cent of their pay, but most people (anyone earning over £32,000) will pay between 49 and 60 per cent through a combination of local government and state income tax.

'If you start talking to someone in Britain, you can be fairly sure that they will end up saying that taxes are too high. In Sweden, you can't do the same,' he says. 'Most people trust the state to manage taxes well. There's a broad, deep faith that the money going into the welfare state will be employed usefully.'

Sweden: Where tax goes up to 60 per cent, and everybody's happy paying it


Is Bernie for a wealth tax? Or a death tax? Many of the Dems are. You don't find that over there either.

Do you trust our gov't to spend our tax dollars wisely? I sure as hell don't. Then there's this: they don't have a gov't imposed minimum wage. And they believe in being competitive globally, so they keep their corporate tax rates lower than ours.

Didja know that Sweden adopted a universal school choice system in the 1990s? According to a study published by the Institute for the Study of Labor, the expansion of private schooling and competition brought about by the Swedish free-market educational reforms “improved average educational performance both at the end of compulsory school and in the long run in terms of high school grades, university attendance, and years of schooling.”

No doubt there are other issues, but this is all I can think of at the moment.

Do you think Bernie is a socialist?

Do you think the Scandinavian countries are socialist?

If your answers to those two questions aren't the same then you really need to rethink some things.

Even if there are some very minor differences his major positions are the same. Whatever label you would give their way of doing things is the same label you should give Bernie.

I think you don't appreciate the various degrees of socialism. All systems on earth have socialism characteristics, there is a wide continuum. Too many are pretending to be capitalist while they over tax, apply regulations and forced payments you must make for the "flavor of the month" or "emergency of the day". Others covertly interfere and control companies while pretending to have little Crown corporations.

To me, you have to view other nations as being more or less socialist than America, the bigger the government and interference and controls in the lives of citizens, the more socialist they are.

Less is better.

We are rapidly approaching the point at which human labor will become obsolete. We see it happening already. It will only get worse. For order to be maintained something will have to be readjusted after there simply aren't enough jobs left. We're approaching a wall and we only have one way to turn. That's why conservatism will lose in the end.

 

[hadit]

The Scandinavians have all told Bernie to STFU, because they have market-based economies.

Socialism, properly defined, is ownership of the means of all production in the hands of The State.

If anyone is disingenuously saying "it's not real socialism", it's leftists when you point to its litany of total failures and abject despotism.

right wing special pleading with political jargon is all you have.

the Proof is, you cannot explain the definition.

When you stop creating your own definitions for words, let us know.

It can all get very confusing when Republicans call everything communism/socialism.

Sure, just like when democrat extremists call EVERYTHING fascism. You're confusing extremist with mainstream. See the difference? Daniel, OTOH, is a special case who just plugs words into sentences that mean something very different from what he's trying to convey.

 

[JGalt]

I don't call liberals and Democrats "socialists." I call them what they are: Marxists, leftists, communists, or commies for short.