I think we all agree

[The Rabbi]

I just had this conversation this morn. It is true Obama was dealt a tough hand but Bush was dealt 9/11 just 100 days into his first term. Try having that dumped on you. At least Obama knew what he was getting.

It is bullshit that obama inherited two quagmires. More examples of Leftists making shit up.
Iraq had been conquered, they had staged two elections, all that needed to be done was a status of forces agreement. And Obama fucked that up.
Afghanistan was tougher. But that was the war Obama called the good war. It was not the generals who pushed for a surge but Obama. He then ignored most of their advice and set on a plan that was all but guaranteed to fail. And fail it did. Obama blew blood and treasure in Afghanistan with absolutely nothing to show for it. The Taliban will be back in power within 24 months of our leaving. The sub 10k troops left will do nothing to prevent that.

The rest of Obama's foreign policy is a total train wreck. There is no country in the world where we have better relations than when Obama took office.

I get all that but you forgot to mention the shit in the sandwich Obama inherited ... an economy on life support.

The economy was bottoming out. If Obama had done nothing we would have resumed growth within 1 or 2 quarters. The stimulus failed big time.

 

[Brain357]

There was, and still is, no situation that would've left Iraq in some mythical "peaceful state" just due to the huge divide in the country's religious factions. It's good we got out when we did.

And you know this how?
You are wrong, of course. Stationing troops there would have kept the peace and deterred aggression from Iran. But Obama was playing to the polls, as usual and cut and run, regardless of long term consequences. Because he cannot think beyond the spin cycle.

He did not cut and run, the Iraqi government requested that we leave because they weren't willing to give the troops stationed there diplomatic immunity from court prosecutions.

Stationing troops there for almost 9 years did not keep the peace for even 1 week of the year! I know this because it's the grim reality even today, and it was throughout the entire occupation of the country.

Aggression from Iran?? Heck nowadays Iran is Iraq's closest ally, has been since around 2006.

Best thing for Iran was taking out Saddam.

 

[Nyvin]

I just had this conversation this morn. It is true Obama was dealt a tough hand but Bush was dealt 9/11 just 100 days into his first term. Try having that dumped on you. At least Obama knew what he was getting.

???

September 11th is easily 250 days into the year, lol

btw, Bush benefited from 9/11 tremendously, he had the highest presidential approval ratings almost immediately after it, and it was 9/11 that largely allowed him to invade Iraq like he wanted to.

I assure you he would have traded those ratings to have the towers and the victims back. His presidency was defined by 9/11, our response, and by the fact that no further attacks were perpetrated here on his watch.

His presidency encompassed much more then 9/11 and it's after effects. On the last part on no further attacks, that is to a degree commendable, but the sad truth is it took a war and much more loss of life to accomplish that.

I'm honestly not sure if he would've traded it, he got quite a bit out of it really, hell I wouldn't at all be surprised if it bought him re-election.

 

[Nyvin]

It is bullshit that obama inherited two quagmires. More examples of Leftists making shit up.
Iraq had been conquered, they had staged two elections, all that needed to be done was a status of forces agreement. And Obama fucked that up.
Afghanistan was tougher. But that was the war Obama called the good war. It was not the generals who pushed for a surge but Obama. He then ignored most of their advice and set on a plan that was all but guaranteed to fail. And fail it did. Obama blew blood and treasure in Afghanistan with absolutely nothing to show for it. The Taliban will be back in power within 24 months of our leaving. The sub 10k troops left will do nothing to prevent that.

The rest of Obama's foreign policy is a total train wreck. There is no country in the world where we have better relations than when Obama took office.

I get all that but you forgot to mention the shit in the sandwich Obama inherited ... an economy on life support.

The economy was bottoming out. If Obama had done nothing we would have resumed growth within 1 or 2 quarters. The stimulus failed big time.

PFFFFFF!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

You've gotta be kidding me!!!!

Well ahead of the whole rest of the developed world huh??? Even while banks were still failing throughout 2009????

 

[JakeStarkey]

You deflect when challenged and have no idea what you're talking about. That says volumes about you!

dear, your lack of integrity and your anti-American reactionary values are exposed once again, this time by Derideo_Te.

The massive irony of FAKEY, of all people, attempting to lecture anybody about a lack of integrity is just too rich.

Fakey, you imbecile, nobody buys anything YOU say. The one constant about you is that you remain forever dishonest.

dear, when you compare yourself to me, your lack of integrity only magnifies your welsing.

IM is a non player here for some time.

 

[JakeStarkey]

BHO was left a total quagmire on both sides of Iraq.

They were both supposed to isolate Iran.

What happened is that we had to leave Iraq, who is now allying with Iraq, and in Afghanistan we cannot deal with the government leadership anymore, thus we had to deal with the Taliban to get our soldier back.

Paul can beat the neo-con, HRC. No other Republican has a chance.

 

[Andylusion]

We have no business in Ukraine or Crimea. If those people vote to rejoin Russia, its none of our fricken business. If Russia takes them by force, let the chips fall where they may. We are not the world's police force. Unless there is a theat or attack on US interests, then we need to stay the **** out of it.

So you ARE ok with the US reacting to a threat as opposed to waiting for an actual attack.
Just a few posts ago you asked IM if he was aware of the diff between the two as if a threat must not be defended. I realize it's a slippery slope fraught with risks but we need to keep our options open and have the courage to act.

But as the case in the Ukraine I'm furious with our governments. This is a complete overthrow of a duly elected government before our very eyes and we are told we should support this lie.

And I'm told I'm crazy that this is just a rebellion and yet I witnessed an overthrow of a government with our backing.

Wait wait wait....

BBC News - Ukraine crisis timeline

In 2010 Viktor Yanukovych, was elected president of Ukraine.

From that time, until 2013, Yanukovych pursued a trade agreement with the EU, which had popular support.

In Nov 2013, suddenly the government does a complete 180, completely abandoning the trade agreement that had been in progress for years, and instead moves to create closer ties with Russia.

Immediately anti-russia protest start breaking out across the Ukraine. By the end of November, over 100,000 people were protesting.

By December, over 800,000 people were protesting against the dropping of the EU, in favor of Russia.

Jan 2014, the Ukraine government passes anti-protest laws, and police shoot and kill several protesters.

Feb 2014, Yanukovych disappears, protesters take over a government building, and Yanukovych shows up on TV to denounce a 'coup' even though no military was involved.

Later that month, Pro-Russian gunmen seize key buildings in the Crimean capital, Simferopol. Unidentified gunmen in combat uniforms appear outside Crimea's main airports. At his first news conference since fleeing to Russia, Mr Yanukovych insists he remains president.

After that, Putin claims they are not Russia troops, but later agrees to a partial withdrawal. Which should be hard to do if they are not his troops.

Of course we all know that a referendum was voted on, under the gaze of Russia troops, and pro-Russia militia, which shockingly supported be separated from Ukraine, and absorbed into Russia.

Russia threatened to cut off gas supplies to Ukraine, and Ukraine ordered all troops out of Crimea. Sealing the end of Crimea as an independent state, yet Pro-Russia militias have been killing people routinely since then, and of course Russia has not withdrawn from the area.


All of that to get to this.

At what point do you claim that we backed the overthrow of their government?

We certainly were not doing it, during the 2010 to 2013 years, where they were moving towards trade with the EU.

The complete reversal of the Ukraine government, dropping the EU, and at the same time announcing plans to integrate with Russia, shocked everyone. No one expected that.

Do you think we instantly arranged 800,000 people to protest throughout Ukraine in a matter of days?

Or was that in fact, a popular upraising against the government?

In fact, don't you think it's odd to have such a massive quick reversal of agenda? Isn't it more likely that Russia bought off the Ukraine government?

Now long after the popular protests had gotten rid of Pres. Yanukovych, yes the US agreed to support Ukraine against Russia, when Russia was rolling troops into Crimea, and annexing it.

If the situation was reversed, and we were Ukraine, and Russia was just marching troops in, we'd want someone to be on our side too.

That doesn't sound like we planned an overthrow of Ukraine to me.

Be what position of debate, do you claim we did this? What am I missing?

 

[The Rabbi]

I get all that but you forgot to mention the shit in the sandwich Obama inherited ... an economy on life support.

The economy was bottoming out. If Obama had done nothing we would have resumed growth within 1 or 2 quarters. The stimulus failed big time.

PFFFFFF!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

You've gotta be kidding me!!!!

Well ahead of the whole rest of the developed world huh??? Even while banks were still failing throughout 2009????

TARP backstopped the banks. IT wasn't a problem anymore. One of the big business lenders (I've forgotten which one) went bankrupt and nothing happened. The crisis was over.
Unemployment continued to rise under the Democrats and is still functionally higher than when Bush left office. Yeah, Obama fucked things up royally.

 

[1776]

Shit for brains....that strategy worked well in WW2 as Germany and Japan raped, pillaged and murdered millions before the US decided it was important to fight too.

It is in our ECONOMIC INTEREST to not have evil scum like Russia, China, Iran and Islamic terrorists taking over parts of the world because they haven't attacked Iowa first.....you stupid pile of shit.

Also, it is our basic humanity to step in and take out evil people when they are harming innocent people.

We get it, you're a ***** that watches an old lady get beaten up....but the rest of us are men and go after someone hurting an old lady even if they have done nothing to us. It's called being a man and standing up for humanity.

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

 

[Dot Com]

War for profit?

Do it and I will take you on. Meet me in a clean room. You lay down the line and I will take you on.

I'm referring to the defense contractors such as the company formerly known as BlackWater, Halliburton, Boeing, KBR, Dyncorp, etc... etc...

They laughed all the way to the bank & left the U.S. taxpayers holding the bag (because Cheney/Bush II "borrowed" the money )

And in Somalia, Kosovo, etc they just donated their services, right?

100 of those wouldn't add-up to one vietraq

You people just make it too easy ESPECIALLY this The Rabbi character

 

[Brain357]

Shit for brains....that strategy worked well in WW2 as Germany and Japan raped, pillaged and murdered millions before the US decided it was important to fight too.

It is in our ECONOMIC INTEREST to not have evil scum like Russia, China, Iran and Islamic terrorists taking over parts of the world because they haven't attacked Iowa first.....you stupid pile of shit.

Also, it is our basic humanity to step in and take out evil people when they are harming innocent people.

We get it, you're a ***** that watches an old lady get beaten up....but the rest of us are men and go after someone hurting an old lady even if they have done nothing to us. It's called being a man and standing up for humanity.

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

And it hasn't worked well since WW2.

One minute we are helping some dictator and the next we are attacking them. Meanwhile we just continue to create terrorists and others who hate the US.

 

[Dot Com]

Shit for brains....that strategy worked well in WW2 as Germany and Japan raped, pillaged and murdered millions before the US decided it was important to fight too.

It is in our ECONOMIC INTEREST to not have evil scum like Russia, China, Iran and Islamic terrorists taking over parts of the world because they haven't attacked Iowa first.....you stupid pile of shit.

Also, it is our basic humanity to step in and take out evil people when they are harming innocent people.

We get it, you're a ***** that watches an old lady get beaten up....but the rest of us are men and go after someone hurting an old lady even if they have done nothing to us. It's called being a man and standing up for humanity.

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

who is going to pay for it I'm not only talking treasure but lives you shitheel

 

[Nyvin]

The economy was bottoming out. If Obama had done nothing we would have resumed growth within 1 or 2 quarters. The stimulus failed big time.

PFFFFFF!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

You've gotta be kidding me!!!!

Well ahead of the whole rest of the developed world huh??? Even while banks were still failing throughout 2009????

TARP backstopped the banks. IT wasn't a problem anymore. One of the big business lenders (I've forgotten which one) went bankrupt and nothing happened. The crisis was over.
Unemployment continued to rise under the Democrats and is still functionally higher than when Bush left office. Yeah, Obama fucked things up royally.

The whole world goes into recession and here you are trying to blame the whole thing on Obama when he didn't even start the thing, lol. Banks continued to fail all the way into the end of 2009, the british economy continued to contract until 2010...The world has never experienced a crash like this before..but you Mr. Genius want to call out Obama for causing the entire mess, when he wasn't even in office when it started.... like a true hate monger would you just state random negatives with nothing backing them

You are nothing but a hate-bashing ranter...you have absolutely nothing backing up your ridiculous rhetoric and just troll for responses, almost everything I've seen you post on this thread has been garbage and easily refutable.

 

[whitehall]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

That theory kind of flies in the face of most of the military adventures of the 20th century sponsored by democrat administrations.

 

[Dot Com]

PFFFFFF!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

You've gotta be kidding me!!!!

Well ahead of the whole rest of the developed world huh??? Even while banks were still failing throughout 2009????

TARP backstopped the banks. IT wasn't a problem anymore. One of the big business lenders (I've forgotten which one) went bankrupt and nothing happened. The crisis was over.
Unemployment continued to rise under the Democrats and is still functionally higher than when Bush left office. Yeah, Obama fucked things up royally.

The whole world goes into recession and here you are trying to blame the whole thing on Obama when he didn't even start the thing, lol. Banks continued to fail all the way into the end of 2009, the british economy continued to contract until 2010...The world has never experienced a crash like this before..but you Mr. Genius want to call out Obama for causing the entire mess, when he wasn't even in office when it started.... like a true hate monger would you just state random negatives with nothing backing them

You are nothing but a hate-bashing ranter...you have absolutely nothing backing up your ridiculous rhetoric and just troll for responses, almost everything I've seen you post on this thread has been garbage and easily refutable.

Thats our The Rabbi. No one here takes the partisan rw hack ravings of The Rabbi here seriously. NO ONE!!!

As to the OP, you can't re-write history You people (Repub voters) cheered when BushCo invaded iraq in what was to become a decade + long, multi-TRILLION $$$ drain on the economy.

 

[The Rabbi]

PFFFFFF!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

You've gotta be kidding me!!!!

Well ahead of the whole rest of the developed world huh??? Even while banks were still failing throughout 2009????

TARP backstopped the banks. IT wasn't a problem anymore. One of the big business lenders (I've forgotten which one) went bankrupt and nothing happened. The crisis was over.
Unemployment continued to rise under the Democrats and is still functionally higher than when Bush left office. Yeah, Obama fucked things up royally.

The whole world goes into recession and here you are trying to blame the whole thing on Obama when he didn't even start the thing, lol. Banks continued to fail all the way into the end of 2009, the british economy continued to contract until 2010...The world has never experienced a crash like this before..but you Mr. Genius want to call out Obama for causing the entire mess, when he wasn't even in office when it started.... like a true hate monger would you just state random negatives with nothing backing them

You are nothing but a hate-bashing ranter...you have absolutely nothing backing up your ridiculous rhetoric and just troll for responses, almost everything I've seen you post on this thread has been garbage and easily refutable.

The whole world is pretty irrelevant. The whole world was in recession during hte 90s when we were experiencing prosperity.
I never wrote Obama caused the whole mess. You simply made that up.
What happened was he inherited a situation that was stabilizing and made it worse. Remember the predictions for unemployment if they passed the stimulus? Yeah, those didnt happen.

 

[NYcarbineer]

[
The whole world is pretty irrelevant. The whole world was in recession during hte 90s when we were experiencing prosperity.
.

Wrong.

 

[Dot Com]

TARP backstopped the banks. IT wasn't a problem anymore. One of the big business lenders (I've forgotten which one) went bankrupt and nothing happened. The crisis was over.
Unemployment continued to rise under the Democrats and is still functionally higher than when Bush left office. Yeah, Obama fucked things up royally.

The whole world goes into recession and here you are trying to blame the whole thing on Obama when he didn't even start the thing, lol. Banks continued to fail all the way into the end of 2009, the british economy continued to contract until 2010...The world has never experienced a crash like this before..but you Mr. Genius want to call out Obama for causing the entire mess, when he wasn't even in office when it started.... like a true hate monger would you just state random negatives with nothing backing them

You are nothing but a hate-bashing ranter...you have absolutely nothing backing up your ridiculous rhetoric and just troll for responses, almost everything I've seen you post on this thread has been garbage and easily refutable.

The whole world is pretty irrelevant. The whole world was in recession during hte 90s when we were experiencing prosperity.
I never wrote Obama caused the whole mess. You simply made that up.
What happened was he inherited a situation that was stabilizing and made it worse. Remember the predictions for unemployment if they passed the stimulus? Yeah, those didnt happen.

when & where was it "stabilizing"?

link?

 

[BlindBoo]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

Welcome to the dark side...........

"Ancient History": U.S. Conduct in the Middle East Since World War II and the Folly of Intervention | Cato Institute

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa159.pdf

 

[Redfish]

The US should not try to police the world and should not engage in nation building. We should not enter foreign conflicts unless the USA or its people have been physically attacked.

Comments-------------------

Welcome to the dark side...........

"Ancient History": U.S. Conduct in the Middle East Since World War II and the Folly of Intervention | Cato Institute

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa159.pdf

your cites are on point. What did the USA accomplish in Viet Nam? Anyone? What did those 58,000 americans die for???? How about Iraq? what did those americans die for in that shithole? Korea? Kosovo?

What has trying to police the entire world gained us? enemies in every country, dead american kids, billions of wasted dollars.

I am not advocating pacificism or isolationism. I am simply saying that we should only use military intervention when the physical assets of the USA or its people are harmed or put in danger of harm.