Hunters....you still think they don't want your guns too......banning lead ammo...

[WinterBorn]

Did the cost of shotgun shells increase significantly due to the requirements for steel shot?

There was a cost increase ... But it would only be reasonable in regards to the powder and adjusted shot expense.
You also have to add the additional expense of wear and tear on the barrel and choke apparatus ... Including replacement cost when necessary.

Still ... It isn't as much about cost as it is about change.

.

And the rifle & handgun bullets sold that are nonlead are not solid steel. I have some in my ammo box. The Barnes rounds are accurate enough to be go-to rounds for a 30-06 I used to own.

 

[Muhammed]

Might just have to buy some pre ban ammo

You think a pure copper bullet, or a steel core lead free bullet will not kill as well?

They're not as heavy as lead.

 

[BlackSand]

Might just have to buy some pre ban ammo

You think a pure copper bullet, or a steel core lead free bullet will not kill as well?

They're not as heavy as lead.

Which equates to higher velocity ... Lead is generally better in close quarters.
I mean who would want to shoot an intruder in the living room and damage a designer chair in the office when the bullet goes through the intruder, the wall and a table lamp?

.

 

[guno]

Perhaps because anything covered by lead cannot be detected by GPS? They could melt that lead down. What I have heard before - there are many hunters who have buried weapons and ammo and sealed it in coffins - with lead over the top - I believe the lead in the dental vests they put on people for x rays is the same idea - it cannot be penetrated - which is why they banned lead weights for fishing also. The One World Gov folks want complete control and anything lead is going to be a serious problem for them tracking down metals - hidden ammo - etc. Does that make sense to you?

Yes and the kooks will fight off the government with shot guns

 

[guno]

There was lead in the days of the civil war and the birds seem to have gotten on just fine. It's an excuse. I'm telling you the govt. cares about as much for birds now as they did when the oil spill in gulf happened and EPA went silent and no one in the Government opened their mouth on behalf of "the birds".... or the fish for that matter.........

Not even when they "solved the problem" by dumping the highly toxic Corexit into the waters of the Gulf and sunk the oil to the floor of the gulf. Out of sight? Out of mind. Do you really believe these people care about the environment? Only long enough to seize all of our rights.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Might just have to buy some pre ban ammo

You think a pure copper bullet, or a steel core lead free bullet will not kill as well?

They're not as heavy as lead.

Bismuth is about as close as you can get to lead.
It comes in at 87% density compared to lead,so while it's not quite as good as lead it's far better than steel shot.
The price is what really sucks.

 

[Missourian]

Obviously wind turbines should all be thickly coated in Nerf material.

Wind turbines are killing condors

Credit: BY JIM WIEGAND: Special to Western Outdoor News: Oct 07, 2009 wonews.com ~~

Two of California’s highest priority environmental causes — promoting renewable energy and saving the California condor — are on a collision course. The proliferation of prop wind turbines and their well-documented history of killing birds of prey have put the future of the California condor at great risk.

Wind turbines are killing condors Wind Energy News
​

Instead of being silly, perhaps we should consider the engineering solutions that would allow us to have the power from the mills and the birds.

I agree. In the mean time, they should be shut down. Sure, it will be an enormous financial loss, but the condors are an important part to California eco-diversity, so everyone will agree that it is worth the cost.

Good idea. Shut down the turbines and focus more on blowing the tops off of mountains for coal. Birds come and go but this obscenity is permanent.
West Virginia Mountaintop Coal Removal Photos - Business Insider

How many California Condors are in West Virginia exactly?

 

[Jarlaxle]

Perhaps because anything covered by lead cannot be detected by GPS? They could melt that lead down. What I have heard before - there are many hunters who have buried weapons and ammo and sealed it in coffins - with lead over the top - I believe the lead in the dental vests they put on people for x rays is the same idea - it cannot be penetrated - which is why they banned lead weights for fishing also. The One World Gov folks want complete control and anything lead is going to be a serious problem for them tracking down metals - hidden ammo - etc. Does that make sense to you?

None whatsoever. Note that lead is still WIDELY available...in everything from car batteries to tire balance weights.

 

[Jarlaxle]

My friend who is a hunter says he doesn't care if they ban handguns.....he still has his shotgun for hunting....and I asked him...do you really think they don't mind your shotgun...and that they won't come for that as soon as hand guns get banned? And I would point out.....they will use environentalists and animal rights extremists to get that shotgun......and here is one step.....making hunting more expensive...by banning the ammo they use.......

California Officially Bans Hunters From Using Lead Bullets The Daily Caller

The National Shooting Sports Foundation released a survey last year saying that “higher ammunition prices will drive 36 percent of California hunters to stop hunting or reduce their participation.”


What was the main reason for stopping or reducing hunting? A 300 percent price difference between lead bullets and non-lead bullets, depending on the type of round. Non-lead bullets make up only a small percentage of the ammunition market and manufacturers say they would have a hard time ramping up production of this ammo without serious price increases.

Lead ammo's bad for the enviroment. Shouldn't even be available in the 21st century.

Considering that F-troop banned the alternative (by bureaucratic fiat) 20 years ago...kiss my ass.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Did the cost of shotgun shells increase significantly due to the requirements for steel shot?

You are missing the point: in many common calibers (including .30-06, 7.62x39, and .223), steel rifle rounds are ALREADY PROHIBITED!

 

[Muhammed]

Can anyone

Obviously wind turbines should all be thickly coated in Nerf material.

Wind turbines are killing condors

Credit: BY JIM WIEGAND: Special to Western Outdoor News: Oct 07, 2009 wonews.com ~~

Two of California’s highest priority environmental causes — promoting renewable energy and saving the California condor — are on a collision course. The proliferation of prop wind turbines and their well-documented history of killing birds of prey have put the future of the California condor at great risk.

Wind turbines are killing condors Wind Energy News
​

Instead of being silly, perhaps we should consider the engineering solutions that would allow us to have the power from the mills and the birds.

I agree. In the mean time, they should be shut down. Sure, it will be an enormous financial loss, but the condors are an important part to California eco-diversity, so everyone will agree that it is worth the cost.

Good idea. Shut down the turbines and focus more on blowing the tops off of mountains for coal. Birds come and go but this obscenity is permanent.
West Virginia Mountaintop Coal Removal Photos - Business Insider

How many California Condors are in West Virginia exactly?

Who eats Condors, anyways?

 

[WinterBorn]

Did the cost of shotgun shells increase significantly due to the requirements for steel shot?

You are missing the point: in many common calibers (including .30-06, 7.62x39, and .223), steel rifle rounds are ALREADY PROHIBITED!

A steel round in a rifle is a recipe for disaster.

A shotgun fires a mass of pellets down the barrel. Steel pellets simply bounce around the barrel.

A rifle has a MUCH different operation.

I will use a .308NATO caliber as an example.

The main part of the .308NATO barrel has an inside diameter of .3 inches. It also has groves that are .004 inches deep, and these grooves run the length of the barrel and provide a slight twist on the projectile. The bullet is .308 inches in diameter. So from the outside of one groove across the barrel to the outside of the opposite groove is .308 inches.

When the gun is fired, the firing pin strikes the primer and sets it off. This ignites the powder in the cartridge. The cartridge case is made of metal that is soft enough to expand slightly, to seal off the side and force all of the explosive power down the barrel. The bullet (the solid projectile) hits the chamber (cone shaped at the rear) and is forced into the barrel proper. Since the bullet is slightly larger than the barrel, the soft metal (lead, copper ect) is forced into the grooves. This makes the bullet follow the twist of the grooves to provides the spin which aids in stabilizing the bullet during flight. This is why rifles are more accurate than muskets. The rate of twist can vary, depending on the intended weight of the bullet.

If a steel bullet were used it would not conform to the grooves in the barrel, but would become a plug. The force of the explosion would then have to find another way out, typically back towards the shooter.

 

[BlackSand]

Did the cost of shotgun shells increase significantly due to the requirements for steel shot?

You are missing the point: in many common calibers (including .30-06, 7.62x39, and .223), steel rifle rounds are ALREADY PROHIBITED!

A steel round in a rifle is a recipe for disaster.

A shotgun fires a mass of pellets down the barrel. Steel pellets simply bounce around the barrel.

A rifle has a MUCH different operation.

I will use a .308NATO caliber as an example.

The main part of the .308NATO barrel has an inside diameter of .3 inches. It also has groves that are .004 inches deep, and these grooves run the length of the barrel and provide a slight twist on the projectile. The bullet is .308 inches in diameter. So from the outside of one groove across the barrel to the outside of the opposite groove is .308 inches.

When the gun is fired, the firing pin strikes the primer and sets it off. This ignites the powder in the cartridge. The cartridge case is made of metal that is soft enough to expand slightly, to seal off the side and force all of the explosive power down the barrel. The bullet (the solid projectile) hits the chamber (cone shaped at the rear) and is forced into the barrel proper. Since the bullet is slightly larger than the barrel, the soft metal (lead, copper ect) is forced into the grooves. This makes the bullet follow the twist of the grooves to provides the spin which aids in stabilizing the bullet during flight. This is why rifles are more accurate than muskets. The rate of twist can vary, depending on the intended weight of the bullet.

If a steel bullet were used it would not conform to the grooves in the barrel, but would become a plug. The force of the explosion would then have to find another way out, typically back towards the shooter.

Non-lead bullets are not solid steel in all but extreme cases.
They generally are considered "bi-metal" bullets ... Such as a copper bullet with a steel core.
There have also been advances in solid copper bullets ... Cutting Edge Bullets Welcome

There are problems though associated with these bullets.
They have more penetration issues ... They don't transfer the same kinetic energy to the initial target either.
A steel core copper bullet can in most cases go right through a deer ... And standard body armor won't stop it any better either.

By street definition ... They could generally be considered "cop killers".
You could shoot a small, clean hole through something and it may not know how bad it shot until it bleeds out.

.

 

[WinterBorn]

Did the cost of shotgun shells increase significantly due to the requirements for steel shot?

You are missing the point: in many common calibers (including .30-06, 7.62x39, and .223), steel rifle rounds are ALREADY PROHIBITED!

A steel round in a rifle is a recipe for disaster.

A shotgun fires a mass of pellets down the barrel. Steel pellets simply bounce around the barrel.

A rifle has a MUCH different operation.

I will use a .308NATO caliber as an example.

The main part of the .308NATO barrel has an inside diameter of .3 inches. It also has groves that are .004 inches deep, and these grooves run the length of the barrel and provide a slight twist on the projectile. The bullet is .308 inches in diameter. So from the outside of one groove across the barrel to the outside of the opposite groove is .308 inches.

When the gun is fired, the firing pin strikes the primer and sets it off. This ignites the powder in the cartridge. The cartridge case is made of metal that is soft enough to expand slightly, to seal off the side and force all of the explosive power down the barrel. The bullet (the solid projectile) hits the chamber (cone shaped at the rear) and is forced into the barrel proper. Since the bullet is slightly larger than the barrel, the soft metal (lead, copper ect) is forced into the grooves. This makes the bullet follow the twist of the grooves to provides the spin which aids in stabilizing the bullet during flight. This is why rifles are more accurate than muskets. The rate of twist can vary, depending on the intended weight of the bullet.

If a steel bullet were used it would not conform to the grooves in the barrel, but would become a plug. The force of the explosion would then have to find another way out, typically back towards the shooter.

Non-lead bullets are not solid steel in all but extreme cases.
They generally are considered "bi-metal" bullets ... Such as a copper bullet with a steel core.
There have also been advances in solid copper bullets ... Cutting Edge Bullets Welcome

There are problems though associated with these bullets.
They have more penetration issues ... They don't transfer the same kinetic energy to the initial target either.
A steel core copper bullet can in most cases go right through a deer ... And standard body armor won't stop it any better either.

By street definition ... They could generally be considered "cop killers".
You could shoot a small, clean hole through something and it may not know how bad it shot until it bleeds out.

.

Now that brings an interesting point to mind. If you are paranoid, you could claim they are banning lead bullets so that we will be forced to use only steel bullets, which will then be banned as cop-killers.

Bullet Types

There is a pic in that article showing the expansion of several brands of existing non-lead bullets. They look like good expansions to me. If I understand it, they expand well but do not fragment like lead. For the hunter this is a very good thing as it maximizes the wound channel.

 

[Ravi]

No, they are grants for conservation.

They are grants for conservation because Ducks Unlimited does what the State does not in providing for the Conservation.
They qualify for the grants when applicable because they have met the requirements applicable in the law.

You ask for proof you essentially provide in your objections and still fail to see the connection.
What is wrong with you ... How can you be so jaded as to continue to fail to understand how the actual conservation you desire takes place?

Instead of attempting to discredit any attempts by others to more effectively and efficiently accomplish the goals necessary ... Get your head out of your ass and look at the writing on the wall.

.

The government gives DU funds to provide for conservation. How does that equal the state not providing?

I've not discredited anything. I asked you for a link to show that hunting fees provide more support than tax funding. Still waiting.

Fish and Wildlife Service

Mkay, that's 200 million. Where did the other 500 million come from in CA alone?

 

[BlackSand]

Now that brings an interesting point to mind. If you are paranoid, you could claim they are banning lead bullets so that we will be forced to use only steel bullets, which will then be banned as cop-killers.

Bullet Types

There is a pic in that article showing the expansion of several brands of existing non-lead bullets. They look like good expansions to me. If I understand it, they expand well but do not fragment like lead. For the hunter this is a very good thing as it maximizes the wound channel.

Well ... The copper or copper alloy bullets will perform pretty well (they foul the barrel, but that is expected).
The problems I was referring to would be more closely associated with steel core (non-lead body) or harder alloys than copper.

I haven't shot solid copper bullets greater than .22 LR ... And they worked fine (sound different).

.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

No, they are grants for conservation.

They are grants for conservation because Ducks Unlimited does what the State does not in providing for the Conservation.
They qualify for the grants when applicable because they have met the requirements applicable in the law.

You ask for proof you essentially provide in your objections and still fail to see the connection.
What is wrong with you ... How can you be so jaded as to continue to fail to understand how the actual conservation you desire takes place?

Instead of attempting to discredit any attempts by others to more effectively and efficiently accomplish the goals necessary ... Get your head out of your ass and look at the writing on the wall.

.

The government gives DU funds to provide for conservation. How does that equal the state not providing?

I've not discredited anything. I asked you for a link to show that hunting fees provide more support than tax funding. Still waiting.

Fish and Wildlife Service

Mkay, that's 200 million. Where did the other 500 million come from in CA alone?

Read it again.....
What do hunters do for conservation?
A lot. The sale of hunting licenses, tags, and stamps is the "primary source" of funding for most state wildlife conservation efforts.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Did the cost of shotgun shells increase significantly due to the requirements for steel shot?

You are missing the point: in many common calibers (including .30-06, 7.62x39, and .223), steel rifle rounds are ALREADY PROHIBITED!

A steel round in a rifle is a recipe for disaster.

A shotgun fires a mass of pellets down the barrel. Steel pellets simply bounce around the barrel.

A rifle has a MUCH different operation.

I will use a .308NATO caliber as an example.

The main part of the .308NATO barrel has an inside diameter of .3 inches. It also has groves that are .004 inches deep, and these grooves run the length of the barrel and provide a slight twist on the projectile. The bullet is .308 inches in diameter. So from the outside of one groove across the barrel to the outside of the opposite groove is .308 inches.

When the gun is fired, the firing pin strikes the primer and sets it off. This ignites the powder in the cartridge. The cartridge case is made of metal that is soft enough to expand slightly, to seal off the side and force all of the explosive power down the barrel. The bullet (the solid projectile) hits the chamber (cone shaped at the rear) and is forced into the barrel proper. Since the bullet is slightly larger than the barrel, the soft metal (lead, copper ect) is forced into the grooves. This makes the bullet follow the twist of the grooves to provides the spin which aids in stabilizing the bullet during flight. This is why rifles are more accurate than muskets. The rate of twist can vary, depending on the intended weight of the bullet.

If a steel bullet were used it would not conform to the grooves in the barrel, but would become a plug. The force of the explosion would then have to find another way out, typically back towards the shooter.

Are you serious? You DO know that there have been millions upon millions of steel rifle rounds fired without a problem...right?

 

[WinterBorn]

Did the cost of shotgun shells increase significantly due to the requirements for steel shot?

You are missing the point: in many common calibers (including .30-06, 7.62x39, and .223), steel rifle rounds are ALREADY PROHIBITED!

A steel round in a rifle is a recipe for disaster.

A shotgun fires a mass of pellets down the barrel. Steel pellets simply bounce around the barrel.

A rifle has a MUCH different operation.

I will use a .308NATO caliber as an example.

The main part of the .308NATO barrel has an inside diameter of .3 inches. It also has groves that are .004 inches deep, and these grooves run the length of the barrel and provide a slight twist on the projectile. The bullet is .308 inches in diameter. So from the outside of one groove across the barrel to the outside of the opposite groove is .308 inches.

When the gun is fired, the firing pin strikes the primer and sets it off. This ignites the powder in the cartridge. The cartridge case is made of metal that is soft enough to expand slightly, to seal off the side and force all of the explosive power down the barrel. The bullet (the solid projectile) hits the chamber (cone shaped at the rear) and is forced into the barrel proper. Since the bullet is slightly larger than the barrel, the soft metal (lead, copper ect) is forced into the grooves. This makes the bullet follow the twist of the grooves to provides the spin which aids in stabilizing the bullet during flight. This is why rifles are more accurate than muskets. The rate of twist can vary, depending on the intended weight of the bullet.

If a steel bullet were used it would not conform to the grooves in the barrel, but would become a plug. The force of the explosion would then have to find another way out, typically back towards the shooter.

Are you serious? You DO know that there have been millions upon millions of steel rifle rounds fired without a problem...right?

Solid steel? Or steel with a copper jacket?

 

[Jarlaxle]

Copper or lead jacket, I would guess. It was loaded in steel cases.