How Zionism Corrupts Judaism

[Billo_Really]

Judaism reveres the Land of Israel and the Land promised by G-d to His people Israel. So does Zionism.
As usual you are wrong, because you pick to post about things you know nothing about.

Zionists use Judaism, like a cheap whore uses a tampon.

 

[Daniyel]

Judaism is 50% Zionism...

Not according to the Torah.

According to the Three Oaths, Jews don't get their country until God comes back down to earth. That's why your orthodox Jews have such a hard time accepting the state of Israel.

 

[Billo_Really]

I said "Oaths", not oaf's.

 

[Daniyel]

Judaism reveres the Land of Israel and the Land promised by G-d to His people Israel. So does Zionism.
As usual you are wrong, because you pick to post about things you know nothing about.

Zionists use Judaism, like a cheap whore uses a tampon.

You have no idea, just like you and metaphors.

 

[Billo_Really]

You have no idea, just like you and metaphors.

I have a very good idea.

The neocons did the same thing in this country with Christianity.

 

[Daniyel]

You have no idea, just like you and metaphors.

I have a very good idea.

The neocons did the same thing in this country with Christianity.

No, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about but you can't admit it so you try to draw an equivalence.
Judaism is Zionism, this is the position of all religious Jews, even your precious NK, but in fact "modern" Zionism is the traditional idea of Israel even for secular Jews that you failed to address, so instead of predetermine everything suitable for you, try running for presidency maybe then I might consider you seriously.
In the meanwhile you can bog off.

 

[Humanity]

Daniyel US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I cannot see that there can be any argument on the subject to be honest...

Judaism is a religion
Zionism is a political organisation

Yes it is possible to combine the two but, IMHO, they are VERY different!

The political wing of Judaism if you like... I would go so far as to say that Zionism has both moderate and extreme wings within the political organisation, as most political organisations have...

 

[Daniyel]

Daniyel US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I cannot see that there can be any argument on the subject to be honest...

Judaism is a religion
Zionism is a political organisation

Yes it is possible to combine the two but, IMHO, they are VERY different!

The political wing of Judaism if you like... I would go so far as to say that Zionism has both moderate and extreme wings within the political organisation, as most political organisations have...

Well, Its more of the your personal contradictory.
However regardless of politics - Judaism (Orthodox, Reforms, Conservatives) all believe Judaism to be encircled about Zion - therefore the term - Zionism, which has stand later for the secular Jews, something very new among Jews to be called "Modern Zionism" - the origins of Zionism started with the promise of God to Abraham, all across the Old Testament.
So you might say today Zionism is differently contradicted than it should, or its association to Judaism is bad for Judaism, or maybe that its all but a bunch of none sense because you are not following Judaism, one way or the other you won't be able to change the very first ideologies of Judaism, the promised land.
If its politics or law we can always debate on that, you can also start up a new religion just like Neturei Karta did and claim you are a follower of Judaism that is against Zionism, fair enough - we can always debate that, but what we cannot change is the simplicity of facts.
Judaism is half about Zionism(Religiously - commandments to God) and half about social commandments(to one another) those are the very basic of ten commandments (out of 613 commandments total) - Open the bible at home and read the sources yourself, not some goofy website, you'll find that the bigger majority of commandments are only valid in Israel.
I Can also tell you more than that, about prophecies, but I guess we should keep it for another day.

 

[flacaltenn]

Daniyel US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I cannot see that there can be any argument on the subject to be honest...

Judaism is a religion
Zionism is a political organisation

Yes it is possible to combine the two but, IMHO, they are VERY different!

The political wing of Judaism if you like... I would go so far as to say that Zionism has both moderate and extreme wings within the political organisation, as most political organisations have...

Well lets's explore that a bit Humanity..

Islam is a religion.
Palianism is a political organization.

I'd be much happier if there was an actual word for the political movement to make a Palestinian Homeland out of
Israel. Because -- there really is not a big diff. Both movements were nationalistic for a displaced people.
Both movements have deep religious claims to the HolyLand. And both movements have about the same amount of support OUTSIDE the respective religions.

Zionism is pretty well played out. Daniyel is just a bit off about the 50% Judaism as it applies to Jews that did not choose to relocate. It's 100% religious identity when Jews are being systematically persecuted somewhere. And about 20% where they ain't.. . There is a nation of Israel. It's an absolute miracle of development and focused devotion to "nation building". A miracle that occurred largely over it's 30 years of existence.

And no essential Zionist movement exists outside of Israel today. Other than the concerted DEFENSE of it's existence as an Internationally recognized state.

However -- Palianism is VERY MUCH active and alive. Doesn't mean I support every action that Israel takes. I don't vote there. And it doesn't mean I'm entirely UNsympathetic to the Pali Nationalists when they have credible and responsible representation.


So Humanity -- if Zionism is a political Org -- where has it run candidates? Or is it just a lobby? I haven't seen a plate passed for Zionism since I was 11.

 

[flacaltenn]

Daniyel US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I cannot see that there can be any argument on the subject to be honest...

Judaism is a religion
Zionism is a political organisation

Yes it is possible to combine the two but, IMHO, they are VERY different!

The political wing of Judaism if you like... I would go so far as to say that Zionism has both moderate and extreme wings within the political organisation, as most political organisations have...

Well, Its more of the your personal contradictory.
However regardless of politics - Judaism (Orthodox, Reforms, Conservatives) all believe Judaism to be encircled about Zion - therefore the term - Zionism, which has stand later for the secular Jews, something very new among Jews to be called "Modern Zionism" - the origins of Zionism started with the promise of God to Abraham, all across the Old Testament.
So you might say today Zionism is differently contradicted than it should, or its association to Judaism is bad for Judaism, or maybe that its all but a bunch of none sense because you are not following Judaism, one way or the other you won't be able to change the very first ideologies of Judaism, the promised land.
If its politics or law we can always debate on that, you can also start up a new religion just like Neturei Karta did and claim you are a follower of Judaism that is against Zionism, fair enough - we can always debate that, but what we cannot change is the simplicity of facts.
Judaism is half about Zionism(Religiously - commandments to God) and half about social commandments(to one another) those are the very basic of ten commandments (out of 613 commandments total) - Open the bible at home and read the sources yourself, not some goofy website, you'll find that the bigger majority of commandments are only valid in Israel.
I Can also tell you more than that, about prophecies, but I guess we should keep it for another day.

I'm confused. Are you saying that there are is a Judaism Light for Jews in Brooklyn,, but Jews who call Israel home are somehow the ONLY ones to interpret or follow the MAJORITY of commandments in the Torah?

That's news to me. And I taught Sunday School for a bit in the 80s...

 

[Billo_Really]

No, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about but you can't admit it so you try to draw an equivalence.
Judaism is Zionism, this is the position of all religious Jews, even your precious NK, but in fact "modern" Zionism is the traditional idea of Israel even for secular Jews that you failed to address, so instead of predetermine everything suitable for you, try running for presidency maybe then I might consider you seriously.
In the meanwhile you can bog off.

You know all religious Jews?

 

[Billo_Really]

I'm confused. Are you saying that there are is a Judaism Light for Jews in Brooklyn,, but Jews who call Israel home are somehow the ONLY ones to interpret or follow the MAJORITY of commandments in the Torah?

That's news to me. And I taught Sunday School for a bit in the 80s...

 

[Billo_Really]

Well, Its more of the your personal contradictory.
However regardless of politics - Judaism (Orthodox, Reforms, Conservatives) all believe Judaism to be encircled about Zion - therefore the term - Zionism, which has stand later for the secular Jews, something very new among Jews to be called "Modern Zionism" - the origins of Zionism started with the promise of God to Abraham, all across the Old Testament.
So you might say today Zionism is differently contradicted than it should, or its association to Judaism is bad for Judaism, or maybe that its all but a bunch of none sense because you are not following Judaism, one way or the other you won't be able to change the very first ideologies of Judaism, the promised land.
If its politics or law we can always debate on that, you can also start up a new religion just like Neturei Karta did and claim you are a follower of Judaism that is against Zionism, fair enough - we can always debate that, but what we cannot change is the simplicity of facts.
Judaism is half about Zionism(Religiously - commandments to God) and half about social commandments(to one another) those are the very basic of ten commandments (out of 613 commandments total) - Open the bible at home and read the sources yourself, not some goofy website, you'll find that the bigger majority of commandments are only valid in Israel.
I Can also tell you more than that, about prophecies, but I guess we should keep it for another day.

Zionism is a political movement, using Judaism to accomplish their racist, apartheid, megalomaniac goals.

 

[flacaltenn]

Well, Its more of the your personal contradictory.
However regardless of politics - Judaism (Orthodox, Reforms, Conservatives) all believe Judaism to be encircled about Zion - therefore the term - Zionism, which has stand later for the secular Jews, something very new among Jews to be called "Modern Zionism" - the origins of Zionism started with the promise of God to Abraham, all across the Old Testament.
So you might say today Zionism is differently contradicted than it should, or its association to Judaism is bad for Judaism, or maybe that its all but a bunch of none sense because you are not following Judaism, one way or the other you won't be able to change the very first ideologies of Judaism, the promised land.
If its politics or law we can always debate on that, you can also start up a new religion just like Neturei Karta did and claim you are a follower of Judaism that is against Zionism, fair enough - we can always debate that, but what we cannot change is the simplicity of facts.
Judaism is half about Zionism(Religiously - commandments to God) and half about social commandments(to one another) those are the very basic of ten commandments (out of 613 commandments total) - Open the bible at home and read the sources yourself, not some goofy website, you'll find that the bigger majority of commandments are only valid in Israel.
I Can also tell you more than that, about prophecies, but I guess we should keep it for another day.

Zionism is a political movement, using Judaism to accomplish their racist, apartheid, megalomaniac goals.

And where on the globe TODAY -- is this political movement active? What power does it wield? And outside of the Holy Land -- what are it's "goals"? Because I sure as hell don't know of any that don't pertain to Israel and it's right to exist. SURELY -- there's a CNN special on the Zionist agenda you can recommend...

megalomaniac is not any Judaic principle as far as I know..

 

[Daniyel]

Daniyel US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I cannot see that there can be any argument on the subject to be honest...

Judaism is a religion
Zionism is a political organisation

Yes it is possible to combine the two but, IMHO, they are VERY different!

The political wing of Judaism if you like... I would go so far as to say that Zionism has both moderate and extreme wings within the political organisation, as most political organisations have...

Well, Its more of the your personal contradictory.
However regardless of politics - Judaism (Orthodox, Reforms, Conservatives) all believe Judaism to be encircled about Zion - therefore the term - Zionism, which has stand later for the secular Jews, something very new among Jews to be called "Modern Zionism" - the origins of Zionism started with the promise of God to Abraham, all across the Old Testament.
So you might say today Zionism is differently contradicted than it should, or its association to Judaism is bad for Judaism, or maybe that its all but a bunch of none sense because you are not following Judaism, one way or the other you won't be able to change the very first ideologies of Judaism, the promised land.
If its politics or law we can always debate on that, you can also start up a new religion just like Neturei Karta did and claim you are a follower of Judaism that is against Zionism, fair enough - we can always debate that, but what we cannot change is the simplicity of facts.
Judaism is half about Zionism(Religiously - commandments to God) and half about social commandments(to one another) those are the very basic of ten commandments (out of 613 commandments total) - Open the bible at home and read the sources yourself, not some goofy website, you'll find that the bigger majority of commandments are only valid in Israel.
I Can also tell you more than that, about prophecies, but I guess we should keep it for another day.

I'm confused. Are you saying that there are is a Judaism Light for Jews in Brooklyn,, but Jews who call Israel home are somehow the ONLY ones to interpret or follow the MAJORITY of commandments in the Torah?

That's news to me. And I taught Sunday School for a bit in the 80s...

Not exactly, this is a very complex issue, here is one article that summaries it's best.

The question of whether one should make Aliyah is a complex one and depends to some extent on one’s Hashkafah (perspective) regarding Medinat Yisrael specifically and Jewish nationalism in general. There are special circumstances to be considered, as even the Pitchei Teshuvah and Sedei Chemed cite authorities who rule that one is not obligated to move to Israel if he is able to earn a living outside of Israel but is not able to do so in Israel. They cite the Talmud's rule (Shabbat 118a), “Aseih Shabatecha Chol VeAl Yitztareich LaBeriyot” (it is better to eat weekday food on Shabbat than to be reliant on charity) as support for this assertion.

Nonetheless, we cannot be complacent regarding our decisions concerning the Mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisrael. Indeed, Chazal (Ketubot 110b-112b) greatly extol the Mitzvah of living in Israel. Moreover, Chazal (Ketubot 110b, codified by the Shulchan Aruch E.H. 75:1) view one spouse’s refusal to perform this Mitzvah as potential grounds for divorce and even permit asking a non-Jew to write on Shabbat to facilitate fulfillment of this Mitzvah (Gittin 8b, quoted by the Rambam Hilchot Shabbat 6:11). Rav Aharon Lichtenstein (in a personal conversation) frames the issue succinctly: Just as a Jew would find it painful to live without Kedushat HaZeman, holiness of time (such as Shabbat and Yom Tov), a Jew should find it painful to live without Kedushat Makom, holiness of space - the land of Israel.

I know it does sound very confusing but in generally many commandments relay on one another including those that can only be practiced in Israel while many sources go by different authorities (local authorities that usually follow one older source)
bottom line is that in our time it is (if there is no real difficulty) a must to settle in Israel by the great majority of Jews, speaking in religious levels, I don't think I'm able to provide you a very decisive answer thou because so far it's a very changing reality, Jews didn't bothered with this question 70 years ago, and what happened in Face this year has driven Jews to leave France(their homeland) and to move to Israel, I hope it helps.

 

[Daniyel]

Well, Its more of the your personal contradictory.
However regardless of politics - Judaism (Orthodox, Reforms, Conservatives) all believe Judaism to be encircled about Zion - therefore the term - Zionism, which has stand later for the secular Jews, something very new among Jews to be called "Modern Zionism" - the origins of Zionism started with the promise of God to Abraham, all across the Old Testament.
So you might say today Zionism is differently contradicted than it should, or its association to Judaism is bad for Judaism, or maybe that its all but a bunch of none sense because you are not following Judaism, one way or the other you won't be able to change the very first ideologies of Judaism, the promised land.
If its politics or law we can always debate on that, you can also start up a new religion just like Neturei Karta did and claim you are a follower of Judaism that is against Zionism, fair enough - we can always debate that, but what we cannot change is the simplicity of facts.
Judaism is half about Zionism(Religiously - commandments to God) and half about social commandments(to one another) those are the very basic of ten commandments (out of 613 commandments total) - Open the bible at home and read the sources yourself, not some goofy website, you'll find that the bigger majority of commandments are only valid in Israel.
I Can also tell you more than that, about prophecies, but I guess we should keep it for another day.

Zionism is a political movement, using Judaism to accomplish their racist, apartheid, megalomaniac goals.

Modern Zionism for your perspective which early began by secular Jews, now also comply with more religious branche.
There is also what gourmet imply a "hijackings" as claimed for IS and Islam which is another great propaganda way of associating, dull as you are there is still the small difference between IS and modern Zionism since IS have their true Islam - exactly by the book of Islam, and modern Zionism is a non religious ideology (by it's destination ) of secular societies, 'true' Zionism is originated in the OT and is another form of the same ideology in religious levels.
You on the other hand mixed them all because it suits you, I know you just don't like hypocrites and you like to argue but consider an attitude makeover where you extract the shit you are full of and try to stand for your standards instead of lecturing filth and hate, good luck.

 

[flacaltenn]

Daniyel US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I cannot see that there can be any argument on the subject to be honest...

Judaism is a religion
Zionism is a political organisation

Yes it is possible to combine the two but, IMHO, they are VERY different!

The political wing of Judaism if you like... I would go so far as to say that Zionism has both moderate and extreme wings within the political organisation, as most political organisations have...

Well, Its more of the your personal contradictory.
However regardless of politics - Judaism (Orthodox, Reforms, Conservatives) all believe Judaism to be encircled about Zion - therefore the term - Zionism, which has stand later for the secular Jews, something very new among Jews to be called "Modern Zionism" - the origins of Zionism started with the promise of God to Abraham, all across the Old Testament.
So you might say today Zionism is differently contradicted than it should, or its association to Judaism is bad for Judaism, or maybe that its all but a bunch of none sense because you are not following Judaism, one way or the other you won't be able to change the very first ideologies of Judaism, the promised land.
If its politics or law we can always debate on that, you can also start up a new religion just like Neturei Karta did and claim you are a follower of Judaism that is against Zionism, fair enough - we can always debate that, but what we cannot change is the simplicity of facts.
Judaism is half about Zionism(Religiously - commandments to God) and half about social commandments(to one another) those are the very basic of ten commandments (out of 613 commandments total) - Open the bible at home and read the sources yourself, not some goofy website, you'll find that the bigger majority of commandments are only valid in Israel.
I Can also tell you more than that, about prophecies, but I guess we should keep it for another day.

I'm confused. Are you saying that there are is a Judaism Light for Jews in Brooklyn,, but Jews who call Israel home are somehow the ONLY ones to interpret or follow the MAJORITY of commandments in the Torah?

That's news to me. And I taught Sunday School for a bit in the 80s...

Not exactly, this is a very complex issue, here is one article that summaries it's best.

The question of whether one should make Aliyah is a complex one and depends to some extent on one’s Hashkafah (perspective) regarding Medinat Yisrael specifically and Jewish nationalism in general. There are special circumstances to be considered, as even the Pitchei Teshuvah and Sedei Chemed cite authorities who rule that one is not obligated to move to Israel if he is able to earn a living outside of Israel but is not able to do so in Israel. They cite the Talmud's rule (Shabbat 118a), “Aseih Shabatecha Chol VeAl Yitztareich LaBeriyot” (it is better to eat weekday food on Shabbat than to be reliant on charity) as support for this assertion.

Nonetheless, we cannot be complacent regarding our decisions concerning the Mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisrael. Indeed, Chazal (Ketubot 110b-112b) greatly extol the Mitzvah of living in Israel. Moreover, Chazal (Ketubot 110b, codified by the Shulchan Aruch E.H. 75:1) view one spouse’s refusal to perform this Mitzvah as potential grounds for divorce and even permit asking a non-Jew to write on Shabbat to facilitate fulfillment of this Mitzvah (Gittin 8b, quoted by the Rambam Hilchot Shabbat 6:11). Rav Aharon Lichtenstein (in a personal conversation) frames the issue succinctly: Just as a Jew would find it painful to live without Kedushat HaZeman, holiness of time (such as Shabbat and Yom Tov), a Jew should find it painful to live without Kedushat Makom, holiness of space - the land of Israel.

I know it does sound very confusing but in generally many commandments relay on one another including those that can only be practiced in Israel while many sources go by different authorities (local authorities that usually follow one older source)
bottom line is that in our time it is (if there is no real difficulty) a must to settle in Israel by the great majority of Jews, speaking in religious levels, I don't think I'm able to provide you a very decisive answer thou because so far it's a very changing reality, Jews didn't bothered with this question 70 years ago, and what happened in Face this year has driven Jews to leave France(their homeland) and to move to Israel, I hope it helps.

The question of Aliyah is a rapidly changing concept. It is best based on DESIRE to fulfill that obligation rather than a commandment. Aliyah TODAY could be interpreted as a commitment to PRESERVE Israel -- rather than actually reside there. And Talmudic references are somewhat tainted by the CONDITIONS of the world at the time the opinions are written.

I have no doubt that such discussions exist in Talmud and other opinions. BUT -- I worry that they are based on fulfillment of THEOCRATIC ideals of organizing Jewry. And that is not a mission that the majority of Jews outside of Israel might be interested in.. Even WITHIN Israel for that matter..

Besides -- who would be left to run the day to day nefarious operations of WorldWide Zionism --- if all Jews decided to crowd into the HolyLand? Why TV networks, Hollywood productions, and the US Congress and libraries worldwide would be left unmonitored and uncontrolled..

 

[Daniyel]

Daniyel US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I cannot see that there can be any argument on the subject to be honest...

Judaism is a religion
Zionism is a political organisation

Yes it is possible to combine the two but, IMHO, they are VERY different!

The political wing of Judaism if you like... I would go so far as to say that Zionism has both moderate and extreme wings within the political organisation, as most political organisations have...

Well, Its more of the your personal contradictory.
However regardless of politics - Judaism (Orthodox, Reforms, Conservatives) all believe Judaism to be encircled about Zion - therefore the term - Zionism, which has stand later for the secular Jews, something very new among Jews to be called "Modern Zionism" - the origins of Zionism started with the promise of God to Abraham, all across the Old Testament.
So you might say today Zionism is differently contradicted than it should, or its association to Judaism is bad for Judaism, or maybe that its all but a bunch of none sense because you are not following Judaism, one way or the other you won't be able to change the very first ideologies of Judaism, the promised land.
If its politics or law we can always debate on that, you can also start up a new religion just like Neturei Karta did and claim you are a follower of Judaism that is against Zionism, fair enough - we can always debate that, but what we cannot change is the simplicity of facts.
Judaism is half about Zionism(Religiously - commandments to God) and half about social commandments(to one another) those are the very basic of ten commandments (out of 613 commandments total) - Open the bible at home and read the sources yourself, not some goofy website, you'll find that the bigger majority of commandments are only valid in Israel.
I Can also tell you more than that, about prophecies, but I guess we should keep it for another day.

I'm confused. Are you saying that there are is a Judaism Light for Jews in Brooklyn,, but Jews who call Israel home are somehow the ONLY ones to interpret or follow the MAJORITY of commandments in the Torah?

That's news to me. And I taught Sunday School for a bit in the 80s...

Not exactly, this is a very complex issue, here is one article that summaries it's best.

The question of whether one should make Aliyah is a complex one and depends to some extent on one’s Hashkafah (perspective) regarding Medinat Yisrael specifically and Jewish nationalism in general. There are special circumstances to be considered, as even the Pitchei Teshuvah and Sedei Chemed cite authorities who rule that one is not obligated to move to Israel if he is able to earn a living outside of Israel but is not able to do so in Israel. They cite the Talmud's rule (Shabbat 118a), “Aseih Shabatecha Chol VeAl Yitztareich LaBeriyot” (it is better to eat weekday food on Shabbat than to be reliant on charity) as support for this assertion.

Nonetheless, we cannot be complacent regarding our decisions concerning the Mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisrael. Indeed, Chazal (Ketubot 110b-112b) greatly extol the Mitzvah of living in Israel. Moreover, Chazal (Ketubot 110b, codified by the Shulchan Aruch E.H. 75:1) view one spouse’s refusal to perform this Mitzvah as potential grounds for divorce and even permit asking a non-Jew to write on Shabbat to facilitate fulfillment of this Mitzvah (Gittin 8b, quoted by the Rambam Hilchot Shabbat 6:11). Rav Aharon Lichtenstein (in a personal conversation) frames the issue succinctly: Just as a Jew would find it painful to live without Kedushat HaZeman, holiness of time (such as Shabbat and Yom Tov), a Jew should find it painful to live without Kedushat Makom, holiness of space - the land of Israel.

I know it does sound very confusing but in generally many commandments relay on one another including those that can only be practiced in Israel while many sources go by different authorities (local authorities that usually follow one older source)
bottom line is that in our time it is (if there is no real difficulty) a must to settle in Israel by the great majority of Jews, speaking in religious levels, I don't think I'm able to provide you a very decisive answer thou because so far it's a very changing reality, Jews didn't bothered with this question 70 years ago, and what happened in Face this year has driven Jews to leave France(their homeland) and to move to Israel, I hope it helps.

The question of Aliyah is a rapidly changing concept. It is best based on DESIRE to fulfill that obligation rather than a commandment. Aliyah TODAY could be interpreted as a commitment to PRESERVE Israel -- rather than actually reside there. And Talmudic references are somewhat tainted by the CONDITIONS of the world at the time the opinions are written.

I have no doubt that such discussions exist in Talmud and other opinions. BUT -- I worry that they are based on fulfillment of THEOCRATIC ideals of organizing Jewry. And that is not a mission that the majority of Jews outside of Israel might be interested in.. Even WITHIN Israel for that matter..

Besides -- who would be left to run the day to day nefarious operations of WorldWide Zionism --- if all Jews decided to crowd into the HolyLand? Why TV networks, Hollywood productions, and the US Congress and libraries worldwide would be left unmonitored and uncontrolled..

The Talmud was written around 200-500 CE and is studied until our times, like you said this is a very changing atmosphere regarding our times.
However, regardless of the sources all is bound to the 'D'Oraita' (Aramic term "of Torah") which explains the commands clearly, The Talmud is discussions about the Mishna (The unwritten Torah) and Rabbis up until now (the local authority are bound to that) that have studied those their entire life write the Halacha (law) based on the wisest Rabbi of their generations, answer to certain question are often turn to them regarding the obligations and conditions, that's pretty much of a pyramid.
The Torah, Mishna,and Talmud speaks clearly not only about the need to go and settle in Israel but also about living among non Jews ("Goyim") with dozens of conditions and ties, only those studied and born to can truly understand and still fewer could answer.
This is not about ideology, the Torah is very clear on the commandments where they all split into do and don't - until the end of time.

 

[flacaltenn]

Daniyel US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I cannot see that there can be any argument on the subject to be honest...

Judaism is a religion
Zionism is a political organisation

Yes it is possible to combine the two but, IMHO, they are VERY different!

The political wing of Judaism if you like... I would go so far as to say that Zionism has both moderate and extreme wings within the political organisation, as most political organisations have...

Well, Its more of the your personal contradictory.
However regardless of politics - Judaism (Orthodox, Reforms, Conservatives) all believe Judaism to be encircled about Zion - therefore the term - Zionism, which has stand later for the secular Jews, something very new among Jews to be called "Modern Zionism" - the origins of Zionism started with the promise of God to Abraham, all across the Old Testament.
So you might say today Zionism is differently contradicted than it should, or its association to Judaism is bad for Judaism, or maybe that its all but a bunch of none sense because you are not following Judaism, one way or the other you won't be able to change the very first ideologies of Judaism, the promised land.
If its politics or law we can always debate on that, you can also start up a new religion just like Neturei Karta did and claim you are a follower of Judaism that is against Zionism, fair enough - we can always debate that, but what we cannot change is the simplicity of facts.
Judaism is half about Zionism(Religiously - commandments to God) and half about social commandments(to one another) those are the very basic of ten commandments (out of 613 commandments total) - Open the bible at home and read the sources yourself, not some goofy website, you'll find that the bigger majority of commandments are only valid in Israel.
I Can also tell you more than that, about prophecies, but I guess we should keep it for another day.

I'm confused. Are you saying that there are is a Judaism Light for Jews in Brooklyn,, but Jews who call Israel home are somehow the ONLY ones to interpret or follow the MAJORITY of commandments in the Torah?

That's news to me. And I taught Sunday School for a bit in the 80s...

Not exactly, this is a very complex issue, here is one article that summaries it's best.

The question of whether one should make Aliyah is a complex one and depends to some extent on one’s Hashkafah (perspective) regarding Medinat Yisrael specifically and Jewish nationalism in general. There are special circumstances to be considered, as even the Pitchei Teshuvah and Sedei Chemed cite authorities who rule that one is not obligated to move to Israel if he is able to earn a living outside of Israel but is not able to do so in Israel. They cite the Talmud's rule (Shabbat 118a), “Aseih Shabatecha Chol VeAl Yitztareich LaBeriyot” (it is better to eat weekday food on Shabbat than to be reliant on charity) as support for this assertion.

Nonetheless, we cannot be complacent regarding our decisions concerning the Mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisrael. Indeed, Chazal (Ketubot 110b-112b) greatly extol the Mitzvah of living in Israel. Moreover, Chazal (Ketubot 110b, codified by the Shulchan Aruch E.H. 75:1) view one spouse’s refusal to perform this Mitzvah as potential grounds for divorce and even permit asking a non-Jew to write on Shabbat to facilitate fulfillment of this Mitzvah (Gittin 8b, quoted by the Rambam Hilchot Shabbat 6:11). Rav Aharon Lichtenstein (in a personal conversation) frames the issue succinctly: Just as a Jew would find it painful to live without Kedushat HaZeman, holiness of time (such as Shabbat and Yom Tov), a Jew should find it painful to live without Kedushat Makom, holiness of space - the land of Israel.

I know it does sound very confusing but in generally many commandments relay on one another including those that can only be practiced in Israel while many sources go by different authorities (local authorities that usually follow one older source)
bottom line is that in our time it is (if there is no real difficulty) a must to settle in Israel by the great majority of Jews, speaking in religious levels, I don't think I'm able to provide you a very decisive answer thou because so far it's a very changing reality, Jews didn't bothered with this question 70 years ago, and what happened in Face this year has driven Jews to leave France(their homeland) and to move to Israel, I hope it helps.

The question of Aliyah is a rapidly changing concept. It is best based on DESIRE to fulfill that obligation rather than a commandment. Aliyah TODAY could be interpreted as a commitment to PRESERVE Israel -- rather than actually reside there. And Talmudic references are somewhat tainted by the CONDITIONS of the world at the time the opinions are written.

I have no doubt that such discussions exist in Talmud and other opinions. BUT -- I worry that they are based on fulfillment of THEOCRATIC ideals of organizing Jewry. And that is not a mission that the majority of Jews outside of Israel might be interested in.. Even WITHIN Israel for that matter..

Besides -- who would be left to run the day to day nefarious operations of WorldWide Zionism --- if all Jews decided to crowd into the HolyLand? Why TV networks, Hollywood productions, and the US Congress and libraries worldwide would be left unmonitored and uncontrolled..

The Talmud was written around 200-500 CE and is studied until our times, like you said this is a very changing atmosphere regarding our times.
However, regardless of the sources all is bound to the 'D'Oraita' (Aramic term "of Torah") which explains the commands clearly, The Talmud is discussions about the Mishna (The unwritten Torah) and Rabbis up until now (the local authority are bound to that) that have studied those their entire life write the Halacha (law) based on the wisest Rabbi of their generations, answer to certain question are often turn to them regarding the obligations and conditions, that's pretty much of a pyramid.
The Torah, Mishna,and Talmud speaks clearly not only about the need to go and settle in Israel but also about living among non Jews ("Goyim") with dozens of conditions and ties, only those studied and born to can truly understand and still fewer could answer.
This is not about ideology, the Torah is very clear on the commandments where they all split into do and don't - until the end of time.

To the point -- Do you believe it is a Jewish OBLIGATION to run a modern "State of Israel" as more of a fundamental Theocracy than an open Western style of government? And if not -- how are these commandments supposed to be fulfilled?

 

[Lipush]

"Judaism is a religion based on humanistic principles offering powerful arguments for social justice, but it has been hijacked by Zionists who have twisted it into an excuse for ethnic cleansing and mass murder."

"Like the Palestinian people, Judaism is also suffering from siege and occupation. Zionism, a Nineteenth Century hallucinatory piece of fictive theology and a vicious ideology, has gotten a demonic grip on much of modern Jewish consciousness and has taken possession of U.S. policies in the Middle East."

"Zionism is not Judaism; Judaism is 3,000 years old. Zionism is a heretical upstart based upon preposterous assumptions. In terms of theistic Judaism, Zionism teaches that God, the creator of everything in the universe from fruit flies to quasars, is also into real-estate distribution and has assigned Palestine to Jews or those who tenuously claim to be Jews … from dark-skinned Ethiopians to blue-eyed Russians."

"any criticism of Zionist imperialism is called “antisemitic.” “Antisemitic,” of course, is a misnomer since the occupied and besieged Palestinians are Semites, too."

"Even Adolf Hitler knew that Zionism is not Judaism: he despised Judaism, but in his Mein Kampf, he had praise for Zionism. Hitler admired racist oppression wherever he found it."

*** Inflammatory Link Label Removed -- FlaCalTenn ***

How Zionism Corrupts Judaism Consortiumnews

Zionism is a cancer to this planet and has nothing to do with Judaism.

Zionists are Jew-haters.

And HaShem said unto Abraham- 'Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee....And Abraham took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came. "

So, Our ancestor was a Jew hater since clearly he was also the first Zionist, immigrated to the promised land.

I love how your logic works.