How will eliminating the Estate Tax benefit the Middle class?

[Spare_change]

It doesn't.

I oppose the estate tax but this is for the 1%.

Iirc, the cost of removing the estate tax would be $800 billion while removal of the state tax deduction would bring in $1 trillion. Don't be surprised if these two are swapped.

I know that both eliminating of the State income tax deduction and the Estate tax are on the table.

And neither would help the middle class.

Well, hell, if you KNOW it won't help the middle class, why are we even discussing it? Let's just point to you when anybody asks why!

Trump and the Republicans claimed that their tax package was to benefit the middle class.

I know eliminating the estate tax won't help the middle class but I was hoping- clearly in vain- for an adult to provide some evidence to support Trump's claim.

I can't say why you are still discussing it- 50 or 60 of your posts later. The facts haven't changed- still no evidence that eliminating the estate tax will benefit anyone- other than the wealthiest Americans.

No, let's tell the truth -----

You have summarily rejected anything that did not align with your beliefs - excuse me, what you "know". You have demonstrated a very superficial understanding of US macroeconomics, but when that is pointed out to you, you simply ignored it.

Sorry- you expressing your opinion on 'how things' work is not pointing out anything to me other than your opinion.

Sure- I appreciate that you are one of I believe 2 posters who actually has addressed the actual OP- and at least you expressed your opinion as to why you believe that there will be a trickle down effect to the middle class from the elimination of the estate class.

I pointed out the flaws in your opinion- the assumptions you made that all benefits would trickle down to the middle class in the U.S. economy when in reality the benefits could trickle down- or could be invested in companies manufacturing products overseas that directly compete with the middle class in the United States.

Yes- there may be some trickle down effect that may eventually benefit the middle class. Of course if we completely eliminated the income tax for the top 1% the same could be claimed- that that would benefit the middle class- because of course the top 1% would all put that money into jobs for Americans.

So, you finally admit that there is "some trickle down" effect - now, we are only arguing the impact, is that right?

 

[Syriusly]

It doesnt create jobs lol
I wonder how kids with not a lot of money pay for their families estate?

The estate pays the tax.

So lets say your mommy and daddy are worth $10 million dollars- and both die in a tragic automobile accident.

You inherit all $10 million dollars free and clear- because the joint exemption for your parents wealth is $10.98 million

Now if your parents are worth $20 million- their estate will have to pay estate taxes on approximately $9 million- and you will get the $11 million + plus the balance of the $9 million after taxes.

How will eliminating that tax create jobs or help the middle class- both which the Republicans and Trump have said this tax change is intended to do?

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What if your Mommy and Daddy owned a business with 10 franchises throughout the state...and they made a profit, but rolled most of the profit back into the business and only took home a couple thousand per year to live on.

Would the estate tax effect a corporation owned by the dead?

The corporation would not be affected- that is the wonderful thing about corporations. Now the estate would own stock in the corporation.

Again- I was working with an estate of $20 M- if your hypothetical Mommy and Daddy only got income of $2,000 a year on $20,000,000- they were earning .1% on their investment- heck of a business model.

If their estate owned 100% of the stock of the company, and the estate had absolutely no cash- then they could sell around $4,000,000 worth of stock- or roughly 20% of the company in order to pay estate taxes- and then the heir is still worth about $16 Million- hardly middle class.

 

[Syriusly]

It doesnt create jobs lol
I wonder how kids with not a lot of money pay for their families estate?

The estate pays the tax.

So lets say your mommy and daddy are worth $10 million dollars- and both die in a tragic automobile accident.

You inherit all $10 million dollars free and clear- because the joint exemption for your parents wealth is $10.98 million

Now if your parents are worth $20 million- their estate will have to pay estate taxes on approximately $9 million- and you will get the $11 million + plus the balance of the $9 million after taxes.

How will eliminating that tax create jobs or help the middle class- both which the Republicans and Trump have said this tax change is intended to do?

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What happens if Mommy and Daddy own a farm that has been in the family for centuries. They grow some vegetables and sell them roadside in the summer, and live day to day on Daddy's military pension.

The farm is 250 acres and it is located 35 minutes from the center of a major city which is growing quickly.

The land if subdivided would be worth many millions of dollars, but they don't want to sell.

Would this land need to be liquidated?

If the land was worth more than $10,000,000- yes.

Just like if they couldn't afford to pay the property taxes on the land. The land is worth abut $80,000 an acre- they might have to sell some land- or sell it all- and be wealthier than 95% of Americans.

 

[Spare_change]

It doesnt create jobs lol
I wonder how kids with not a lot of money pay for their families estate?

The estate pays the tax.

So lets say your mommy and daddy are worth $10 million dollars- and both die in a tragic automobile accident.

You inherit all $10 million dollars free and clear- because the joint exemption for your parents wealth is $10.98 million

Now if your parents are worth $20 million- their estate will have to pay estate taxes on approximately $9 million- and you will get the $11 million + plus the balance of the $9 million after taxes.

How will eliminating that tax create jobs or help the middle class- both which the Republicans and Trump have said this tax change is intended to do?

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What if your Mommy and Daddy owned a business with 10 franchises throughout the state...and they made a profit, but rolled most of the profit back into the business and only took home a couple thousand per year to live on.

Would the estate tax effect a corporation owned by the dead?

The corporation would not be affected- that is the wonderful thing about corporations. Now the estate would own stock in the corporation.

Again- I was working with an estate of $20 M- if your hypothetical Mommy and Daddy only got income of $2,000 a year on $20,000,000- they were earning .1% on their investment- heck of a business model.

If their estate owned 100% of the stock of the company, and the estate had absolutely no cash- then they could sell around $4,000,000 worth of stock- or roughly 20% of the company in order to pay estate taxes- and then the heir is still worth about $16 Million- hardly middle class.

Told ya that would be the answer, didn't I?

 

[Spare_change]

It doesnt create jobs lol
I wonder how kids with not a lot of money pay for their families estate?

The estate pays the tax.

So lets say your mommy and daddy are worth $10 million dollars- and both die in a tragic automobile accident.

You inherit all $10 million dollars free and clear- because the joint exemption for your parents wealth is $10.98 million

Now if your parents are worth $20 million- their estate will have to pay estate taxes on approximately $9 million- and you will get the $11 million + plus the balance of the $9 million after taxes.

How will eliminating that tax create jobs or help the middle class- both which the Republicans and Trump have said this tax change is intended to do?

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What happens if Mommy and Daddy own a farm that has been in the family for centuries. They grow some vegetables and sell them roadside in the summer, and live day to day on Daddy's military pension.

The farm is 250 acres and it is located 35 minutes from the center of a major city which is growing quickly.

The land if subdivided would be worth many millions of dollars, but they don't want to sell.

Would this land need to be liquidated?

If the land was worth more than $10,000,000- yes.

Just like if they couldn't afford to pay the property taxes on the land. The land is worth abut $80,000 an acre- they might have to sell some land- or sell it all- and be wealthier than 95% of Americans.

More of the same .... "boo hoo"

 

[Syriusly]

It doesnt create jobs lol
I wonder how kids with not a lot of money pay for their families estate?

The estate pays the tax.

So lets say your mommy and daddy are worth $10 million dollars- and both die in a tragic automobile accident.

You inherit all $10 million dollars free and clear- because the joint exemption for your parents wealth is $10.98 million

Now if your parents are worth $20 million- their estate will have to pay estate taxes on approximately $9 million- and you will get the $11 million + plus the balance of the $9 million after taxes.

How will eliminating that tax create jobs or help the middle class- both which the Republicans and Trump have said this tax change is intended to do?

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What if your Mommy and Daddy owned a business with 10 franchises throughout the state...and they made a profit, but rolled most of the profit back into the business and only took home a couple thousand per year to live on.

Would the estate tax effect a corporation owned by the dead?

The short answer is YES ....

The value of the corporation (or their share of it) would be rolled into the taxable value of the estate. This is the primary reason that farms and businesses are lost to estate tax. There isn't enough external capitalization to pay off the tax bill, and the heirs are forced to sell the estate (or portions of it) in order to pay its taxes.

This creates the "double hit" effect --- not only is the estate lowered by the value of the taxes paid, the total value of the estate is lowered by a like amount because portions had to be liquidated in order to pay the taxes, and thus can't produce revenue.

How many farms and business's are 'lost to the estate tax?

Is the death tax killing American family farms?
But as to the actual number of family farms hit by the estate tax, only 20 farms in 2013 paid estate taxes and no farms have been reported sold to pay off an estate tax debt.

'Death Tax' Talking Point Won't Die - FactCheck.org
In 2015, roughly 2.5 million people died, and just 4,918 people had to pay an estate tax, according to IRS data. That’s about one out of every 500 deaths resulting in any estate tax liability.

The numbers are even smaller for farm operators. Only 639 estates that listed any farm assets had to pay the estate tax (and 122 of them had assets of $20 million or more).

Separate research by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center puts the number even lower. TPC estimates that only 50 farms and closely held businesses will pay any estate tax in 2017.

The law also includes a provision that allows those who inherit a farm, and are having trouble paying the estate tax, to spread those payments over 14 years at a low interest rate.

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/3/the-estate-tax-isnt-destroying-family-farms.html

 

[Syriusly]

It doesnt create jobs lol
I wonder how kids with not a lot of money pay for their families estate?

The estate pays the tax.

So lets say your mommy and daddy are worth $10 million dollars- and both die in a tragic automobile accident.

You inherit all $10 million dollars free and clear- because the joint exemption for your parents wealth is $10.98 million

Now if your parents are worth $20 million- their estate will have to pay estate taxes on approximately $9 million- and you will get the $11 million + plus the balance of the $9 million after taxes.

How will eliminating that tax create jobs or help the middle class- both which the Republicans and Trump have said this tax change is intended to do?

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What happens if Mommy and Daddy own a farm that has been in the family for centuries. They grow some vegetables and sell them roadside in the summer, and live day to day on Daddy's military pension.

The farm is 250 acres and it is located 35 minutes from the center of a major city which is growing quickly.

The land if subdivided would be worth many millions of dollars, but they don't want to sell.

Would this land need to be liquidated?

You won't get an answer --- or you'll get one that goes like this "The heirs end up with the remaining value of a multi-million dollar farm that had to be liquidated. Well, boo hoo ...."

Take your scenario a step further ---- the son works the farm with his dad. Suddenly, he is left with a smaller farm that produces less income.

Happens every day.

'Happens every day'

Prove it. Lets say you are being somewhat hyperbolic- so maybe you really only meant every other day- so show us where 180 farms had to be sold off due to the Federal Estate Tax last year- show us the money.

Separate research by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center puts the number even lower. TPC estimates that only 50 farms and closely held businesses will pay any estate tax in 2017.

 

[Syriusly]

The estate pays the tax.

So lets say your mommy and daddy are worth $10 million dollars- and both die in a tragic automobile accident.

You inherit all $10 million dollars free and clear- because the joint exemption for your parents wealth is $10.98 million

Now if your parents are worth $20 million- their estate will have to pay estate taxes on approximately $9 million- and you will get the $11 million + plus the balance of the $9 million after taxes.

How will eliminating that tax create jobs or help the middle class- both which the Republicans and Trump have said this tax change is intended to do?

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What if your Mommy and Daddy owned a business with 10 franchises throughout the state...and they made a profit, but rolled most of the profit back into the business and only took home a couple thousand per year to live on.

Would the estate tax effect a corporation owned by the dead?

The short answer is YES ....

The value of the corporation (or their share of it) would be rolled into the taxable value of the estate. This is the primary reason that farms and businesses are lost to estate tax. There isn't enough external capitalization to pay off the tax bill, and the heirs are forced to sell the estate (or portions of it) in order to pay its taxes.

This creates the "double hit" effect --- not only is the estate lowered by the value of the taxes paid, the total value of the estate is lowered by a like amount because portions had to be liquidated in order to pay the taxes, and thus can't produce revenue.

So this would be a case where the elimination of the estate tax would benefit the middle class...the stores would not have to be closed and the workers in each of the stores would not be laid off.

On the other hand, who determines how much a business is worth? If the entire business is sold for a measly sum, say $1,000, then the estate would be essentially worthless.

If this was a corporation- the stores wouldn't have to close at all. They would merely sell some of the shares in the corporation- one of the benefits of a corporation.

If the business was only worth $1,000 then they wouldn't be subject to the estate tax.

 

[Syriusly]

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What if your Mommy and Daddy owned a business with 10 franchises throughout the state...and they made a profit, but rolled most of the profit back into the business and only took home a couple thousand per year to live on.

Would the estate tax effect a corporation owned by the dead?

The short answer is YES ....

The value of the corporation (or their share of it) would be rolled into the taxable value of the estate. This is the primary reason that farms and businesses are lost to estate tax. There isn't enough external capitalization to pay off the tax bill, and the heirs are forced to sell the estate (or portions of it) in order to pay its taxes.

This creates the "double hit" effect --- not only is the estate lowered by the value of the taxes paid, the total value of the estate is lowered by a like amount because portions had to be liquidated in order to pay the taxes, and thus can't produce revenue.

So this would be a case where the elimination of the estate tax would benefit the middle class...the stores would not have to be closed and the workers in each of the stores would not be laid off.

On the other hand, who determines how much a business is worth? If the entire business is sold for a measly sum, say $1,000, then the estate would be essentially worthless.

You wish .... the government decides the value of the estate. Usually, the probate judge hires an impartial auditor to make the determination. (Just as an aside, the auditor usually gets paid based, not on hours, but on the value of the estate and the complexity of the audit --- now THAT is double jeopardy. It's in the auditor's interest to "pad" the books)

But, you're right ---- all the jobs lost because of the liquidated resources to pay the estate tax adversely affect both the owner AND the workers. Somebody gets unemployment ....

Or they just sell the business to new owners- and the employees work for new owners- which actually does happen every day.

 

[Spare_change]

The estate pays the tax.

So lets say your mommy and daddy are worth $10 million dollars- and both die in a tragic automobile accident.

You inherit all $10 million dollars free and clear- because the joint exemption for your parents wealth is $10.98 million

Now if your parents are worth $20 million- their estate will have to pay estate taxes on approximately $9 million- and you will get the $11 million + plus the balance of the $9 million after taxes.

How will eliminating that tax create jobs or help the middle class- both which the Republicans and Trump have said this tax change is intended to do?

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What if your Mommy and Daddy owned a business with 10 franchises throughout the state...and they made a profit, but rolled most of the profit back into the business and only took home a couple thousand per year to live on.

Would the estate tax effect a corporation owned by the dead?

The short answer is YES ....

The value of the corporation (or their share of it) would be rolled into the taxable value of the estate. This is the primary reason that farms and businesses are lost to estate tax. There isn't enough external capitalization to pay off the tax bill, and the heirs are forced to sell the estate (or portions of it) in order to pay its taxes.

This creates the "double hit" effect --- not only is the estate lowered by the value of the taxes paid, the total value of the estate is lowered by a like amount because portions had to be liquidated in order to pay the taxes, and thus can't produce revenue.

How many farms and business's are 'lost to the estate tax?

Is the death tax killing American family farms?
But as to the actual number of family farms hit by the estate tax, only 20 farms in 2013 paid estate taxes and no farms have been reported sold to pay off an estate tax debt.

'Death Tax' Talking Point Won't Die - FactCheck.org
In 2015, roughly 2.5 million people died, and just 4,918 people had to pay an estate tax, according to IRS data. That’s about one out of every 500 deaths resulting in any estate tax liability.

The numbers are even smaller for farm operators. Only 639 estates that listed any farm assets had to pay the estate tax (and 122 of them had assets of $20 million or more).

Separate research by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center puts the number even lower. TPC estimates that only 50 farms and closely held businesses will pay any estate tax in 2017.

The law also includes a provision that allows those who inherit a farm, and are having trouble paying the estate tax, to spread those payments over 14 years at a low interest rate.

... and ONLY 59 out of 350 million died in the Las Vegas shooting.

What's your point? It's either right or it's wrong - there is no in-between.

Over 14 years? Isn't that special !!! I mean - instead the government taking ownership of your farm (which they don't want, in the first place), you can just make payments (with a suitable interest, of course). Now,THAT is magnanimous, don't you think?

 

[Syriusly]

The estate pays the tax.

So lets say your mommy and daddy are worth $10 million dollars- and both die in a tragic automobile accident.

You inherit all $10 million dollars free and clear- because the joint exemption for your parents wealth is $10.98 million

Now if your parents are worth $20 million- their estate will have to pay estate taxes on approximately $9 million- and you will get the $11 million + plus the balance of the $9 million after taxes.

How will eliminating that tax create jobs or help the middle class- both which the Republicans and Trump have said this tax change is intended to do?

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What happens if Mommy and Daddy own a farm that has been in the family for centuries. They grow some vegetables and sell them roadside in the summer, and live day to day on Daddy's military pension.

The farm is 250 acres and it is located 35 minutes from the center of a major city which is growing quickly.

The land if subdivided would be worth many millions of dollars, but they don't want to sell.

Would this land need to be liquidated?

You won't get an answer --- or you'll get one that goes like this "The heirs end up with the remaining value of a multi-million dollar farm that had to be liquidated. Well, boo hoo ...."

Take your scenario a step further ---- the son works the farm with his dad. Suddenly, he is left with a smaller farm that produces less income.

Happens every day.

What if they placed the entire farm in a land conservancy, so that it could never be developed? It would then make the land worth far less.

There are provisions for that too. There are special exemptions for farms.

Part of the reason the numbers are so low is that there are exemptions for farmers and small businesses written into the estate tax code that allow most farmers — with a bit of estate planning — to avoid the estate tax altogether.


For example, if the heirs agree to farm the land for another 10 years, they can get up to a $1 million exemption by valuing land at its farm use value rather than development value. An additional $500,000 exemption is possible if one agrees to a perpetual conservation easement restricting the use of the land. It is also possible to reduce the value of an estate by giving portions of the estate to heirs as a gift over a number of years. For a full description of exemptions available to farmers, see this Congressional Research Service report, starting on page 2.


The law also includes a provision that allows those who inherit a farm, and are having trouble paying the estate tax, to spread those payments over 14 years at a low interest rate.

 

[Spare_change]

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What if your Mommy and Daddy owned a business with 10 franchises throughout the state...and they made a profit, but rolled most of the profit back into the business and only took home a couple thousand per year to live on.

Would the estate tax effect a corporation owned by the dead?

The short answer is YES ....

The value of the corporation (or their share of it) would be rolled into the taxable value of the estate. This is the primary reason that farms and businesses are lost to estate tax. There isn't enough external capitalization to pay off the tax bill, and the heirs are forced to sell the estate (or portions of it) in order to pay its taxes.

This creates the "double hit" effect --- not only is the estate lowered by the value of the taxes paid, the total value of the estate is lowered by a like amount because portions had to be liquidated in order to pay the taxes, and thus can't produce revenue.

So this would be a case where the elimination of the estate tax would benefit the middle class...the stores would not have to be closed and the workers in each of the stores would not be laid off.

On the other hand, who determines how much a business is worth? If the entire business is sold for a measly sum, say $1,000, then the estate would be essentially worthless.

If this was a corporation- the stores wouldn't have to close at all. They would merely sell some of the shares in the corporation- one of the benefits of a corporation.

If the business was only worth $1,000 then they wouldn't be subject to the estate tax.

What an asinine argument --- why don't you grow up? Trying to discuss something with you is like arguing with a 5 year old.

I'm done - until you can come back with something intelligent.

 

[Syriusly]

I know that both eliminating of the State income tax deduction and the Estate tax are on the table.

And neither would help the middle class.

Well, hell, if you KNOW it won't help the middle class, why are we even discussing it? Let's just point to you when anybody asks why!

Trump and the Republicans claimed that their tax package was to benefit the middle class.

I know eliminating the estate tax won't help the middle class but I was hoping- clearly in vain- for an adult to provide some evidence to support Trump's claim.

I can't say why you are still discussing it- 50 or 60 of your posts later. The facts haven't changed- still no evidence that eliminating the estate tax will benefit anyone- other than the wealthiest Americans.

No, let's tell the truth -----

You have summarily rejected anything that did not align with your beliefs - excuse me, what you "know". You have demonstrated a very superficial understanding of US macroeconomics, but when that is pointed out to you, you simply ignored it.

Sorry- you expressing your opinion on 'how things' work is not pointing out anything to me other than your opinion.

Sure- I appreciate that you are one of I believe 2 posters who actually has addressed the actual OP- and at least you expressed your opinion as to why you believe that there will be a trickle down effect to the middle class from the elimination of the estate class.

I pointed out the flaws in your opinion- the assumptions you made that all benefits would trickle down to the middle class in the U.S. economy when in reality the benefits could trickle down- or could be invested in companies manufacturing products overseas that directly compete with the middle class in the United States.

Yes- there may be some trickle down effect that may eventually benefit the middle class. Of course if we completely eliminated the income tax for the top 1% the same could be claimed- that that would benefit the middle class- because of course the top 1% would all put that money into jobs for Americans.

So, you finally admit that there is "some trickle down" effect - now, we are only arguing the impact, is that right?

I am admitting that there might be some trickle down effect- or there might not be any.

Are you willing to agree with me on that?

 

[Syriusly]

The estate pays the tax.

So lets say your mommy and daddy are worth $10 million dollars- and both die in a tragic automobile accident.

You inherit all $10 million dollars free and clear- because the joint exemption for your parents wealth is $10.98 million

Now if your parents are worth $20 million- their estate will have to pay estate taxes on approximately $9 million- and you will get the $11 million + plus the balance of the $9 million after taxes.

How will eliminating that tax create jobs or help the middle class- both which the Republicans and Trump have said this tax change is intended to do?

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What if your Mommy and Daddy owned a business with 10 franchises throughout the state...and they made a profit, but rolled most of the profit back into the business and only took home a couple thousand per year to live on.

Would the estate tax effect a corporation owned by the dead?

The corporation would not be affected- that is the wonderful thing about corporations. Now the estate would own stock in the corporation.

Again- I was working with an estate of $20 M- if your hypothetical Mommy and Daddy only got income of $2,000 a year on $20,000,000- they were earning .1% on their investment- heck of a business model.

If their estate owned 100% of the stock of the company, and the estate had absolutely no cash- then they could sell around $4,000,000 worth of stock- or roughly 20% of the company in order to pay estate taxes- and then the heir is still worth about $16 Million- hardly middle class.

Told ya that would be the answer, didn't I?

If only there had been no estate tax, and the heir inherited $20,000,000 instead of $16,000,000 the middle class would be so much better off.....

 

[Syriusly]

The estate pays the tax.

So lets say your mommy and daddy are worth $10 million dollars- and both die in a tragic automobile accident.

You inherit all $10 million dollars free and clear- because the joint exemption for your parents wealth is $10.98 million

Now if your parents are worth $20 million- their estate will have to pay estate taxes on approximately $9 million- and you will get the $11 million + plus the balance of the $9 million after taxes.

How will eliminating that tax create jobs or help the middle class- both which the Republicans and Trump have said this tax change is intended to do?

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What happens if Mommy and Daddy own a farm that has been in the family for centuries. They grow some vegetables and sell them roadside in the summer, and live day to day on Daddy's military pension.

The farm is 250 acres and it is located 35 minutes from the center of a major city which is growing quickly.

The land if subdivided would be worth many millions of dollars, but they don't want to sell.

Would this land need to be liquidated?

If the land was worth more than $10,000,000- yes.

Just like if they couldn't afford to pay the property taxes on the land. The land is worth abut $80,000 an acre- they might have to sell some land- or sell it all- and be wealthier than 95% of Americans.

More of the same .... "boo hoo"

Not sure why anyone would be going 'boo hoo's for the sudden multi-millionaires.

 

[Syriusly]

The Estate pays the tax, but it would only be able to pay the tax if the Estate is liquidated.

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What if your Mommy and Daddy owned a business with 10 franchises throughout the state...and they made a profit, but rolled most of the profit back into the business and only took home a couple thousand per year to live on.

Would the estate tax effect a corporation owned by the dead?

The short answer is YES ....

The value of the corporation (or their share of it) would be rolled into the taxable value of the estate. This is the primary reason that farms and businesses are lost to estate tax. There isn't enough external capitalization to pay off the tax bill, and the heirs are forced to sell the estate (or portions of it) in order to pay its taxes.

This creates the "double hit" effect --- not only is the estate lowered by the value of the taxes paid, the total value of the estate is lowered by a like amount because portions had to be liquidated in order to pay the taxes, and thus can't produce revenue.

How many farms and business's are 'lost to the estate tax?

Is the death tax killing American family farms?
But as to the actual number of family farms hit by the estate tax, only 20 farms in 2013 paid estate taxes and no farms have been reported sold to pay off an estate tax debt.

'Death Tax' Talking Point Won't Die - FactCheck.org
In 2015, roughly 2.5 million people died, and just 4,918 people had to pay an estate tax, according to IRS data. That’s about one out of every 500 deaths resulting in any estate tax liability.

The numbers are even smaller for farm operators. Only 639 estates that listed any farm assets had to pay the estate tax (and 122 of them had assets of $20 million or more).

Separate research by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center puts the number even lower. TPC estimates that only 50 farms and closely held businesses will pay any estate tax in 2017.

The law also includes a provision that allows those who inherit a farm, and are having trouble paying the estate tax, to spread those payments over 14 years at a low interest rate.

... and ONLY 59 out of 350 million died in the Las Vegas shooting.

What's your point? It's either right or it's wrong - there is no in-between.

Over 14 years? Isn't that special !!! I mean - instead the government taking ownership of your farm (which they don't want, in the first place), you can just make payments (with a suitable interest, of course). Now,THAT is magnanimous, don't you think?

LOL- so you are finally admitting that this is all about you believing that an estate tax on millionaires is 'wrong'

You are the one who claimed that family farms lost due to estate taxes 'happens every day'- I just showed that it virtually never happens.


The law also includes a provision that allows those who inherit a farm, and are having trouble paying the estate tax, to spread those payments over 14 years at a low interest rate.

Yeah- that is pretty generous- more generous than the IRS is for taxable income.

 

[Syriusly]

The Estate would have to pay out of the estate- if the Estate had enough cash the Estate could pay out of the Estate's cash. Or the Estate might have to liquidate enough to pay the taxes.

So your mommy and daddy have a $20 million dollar estate- and pass away- the estate owes taxes on $10 million dollars- and may have to liquidate some assets to pay for that- leaving your inheritance to be some $15 million dollars.

No- that does not make you part of the middle class.

What if your Mommy and Daddy owned a business with 10 franchises throughout the state...and they made a profit, but rolled most of the profit back into the business and only took home a couple thousand per year to live on.

Would the estate tax effect a corporation owned by the dead?

The short answer is YES ....

The value of the corporation (or their share of it) would be rolled into the taxable value of the estate. This is the primary reason that farms and businesses are lost to estate tax. There isn't enough external capitalization to pay off the tax bill, and the heirs are forced to sell the estate (or portions of it) in order to pay its taxes.

This creates the "double hit" effect --- not only is the estate lowered by the value of the taxes paid, the total value of the estate is lowered by a like amount because portions had to be liquidated in order to pay the taxes, and thus can't produce revenue.

So this would be a case where the elimination of the estate tax would benefit the middle class...the stores would not have to be closed and the workers in each of the stores would not be laid off.

On the other hand, who determines how much a business is worth? If the entire business is sold for a measly sum, say $1,000, then the estate would be essentially worthless.

If this was a corporation- the stores wouldn't have to close at all. They would merely sell some of the shares in the corporation- one of the benefits of a corporation.

If the business was only worth $1,000 then they wouldn't be subject to the estate tax.

What an asinine argument --- why don't you grow up? Trying to discuss something with you is like arguing with a 5 year old.

I'm done - until you can come back with something intelligent.

Why am I not surprised you are running away......lol

I am quoting facts- and that just pisses you off.

 

[Spare_change]

What if your Mommy and Daddy owned a business with 10 franchises throughout the state...and they made a profit, but rolled most of the profit back into the business and only took home a couple thousand per year to live on.

Would the estate tax effect a corporation owned by the dead?

The short answer is YES ....

The value of the corporation (or their share of it) would be rolled into the taxable value of the estate. This is the primary reason that farms and businesses are lost to estate tax. There isn't enough external capitalization to pay off the tax bill, and the heirs are forced to sell the estate (or portions of it) in order to pay its taxes.

This creates the "double hit" effect --- not only is the estate lowered by the value of the taxes paid, the total value of the estate is lowered by a like amount because portions had to be liquidated in order to pay the taxes, and thus can't produce revenue.

So this would be a case where the elimination of the estate tax would benefit the middle class...the stores would not have to be closed and the workers in each of the stores would not be laid off.

On the other hand, who determines how much a business is worth? If the entire business is sold for a measly sum, say $1,000, then the estate would be essentially worthless.

If this was a corporation- the stores wouldn't have to close at all. They would merely sell some of the shares in the corporation- one of the benefits of a corporation.

If the business was only worth $1,000 then they wouldn't be subject to the estate tax.

What an asinine argument --- why don't you grow up? Trying to discuss something with you is like arguing with a 5 year old.

I'm done - until you can come back with something intelligent.

Why am I not surprised you are running away......lol

I am quoting facts- and that just pisses you off.

Whatever it takes to prop up your pathetic little ego .... you wouldn't know a fact if it hit you in the head

 

[Syriusly]

The short answer is YES ....

The value of the corporation (or their share of it) would be rolled into the taxable value of the estate. This is the primary reason that farms and businesses are lost to estate tax. There isn't enough external capitalization to pay off the tax bill, and the heirs are forced to sell the estate (or portions of it) in order to pay its taxes.

This creates the "double hit" effect --- not only is the estate lowered by the value of the taxes paid, the total value of the estate is lowered by a like amount because portions had to be liquidated in order to pay the taxes, and thus can't produce revenue.

So this would be a case where the elimination of the estate tax would benefit the middle class...the stores would not have to be closed and the workers in each of the stores would not be laid off.

On the other hand, who determines how much a business is worth? If the entire business is sold for a measly sum, say $1,000, then the estate would be essentially worthless.

If this was a corporation- the stores wouldn't have to close at all. They would merely sell some of the shares in the corporation- one of the benefits of a corporation.

If the business was only worth $1,000 then they wouldn't be subject to the estate tax.

What an asinine argument --- why don't you grow up? Trying to discuss something with you is like arguing with a 5 year old.

I'm done - until you can come back with something intelligent.

Why am I not surprised you are running away......lol

I am quoting facts- and that just pisses you off.

Whatever it takes to prop up your pathetic little ego .... you wouldn't know a fact if it hit you in the head

LOL- unlike you- I have actually provided facts and citations in this thread.

Remember when you claimed this:
Spare: Take your scenario a step further ---- the son works the farm with his dad. Suddenly, he is left with a smaller farm that produces less income.

Happens every day.

I challenged you to back that up- you of course didn't.

In contrast- I provided facts showing that far from 'happens every day'- it doesn't appear to happen on a regular basis- if at all- which of course you waved your hand off

Is the death tax killing American family farms?
But as to the actual number of family farms hit by the estate tax, only 20 farms in 2013 paid estate taxes and no farms have been reported sold to pay off an estate tax debt.

'Death Tax' Talking Point Won't Die - FactCheck.org
In 2015, roughly 2.5 million people died, and just 4,918 people had to pay an estate tax, according to IRS data. That’s about one out of every 500 deaths resulting in any estate tax liability.

The numbers are even smaller for farm operators. Only 639 estates that listed any farm assets had to pay the estate tax (and 122 of them had assets of $20 million or more).

Separate research by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center puts the number even lower. TPC estimates that only 50 farms and closely held businesses will pay any estate tax in 2017.

The law also includes a provision that allows those who inherit a farm, and are having trouble paying the estate tax, to spread those payments over 14 years at a low interest rate.

 

[danielpalos]

Why does the government get to take any person;s money? Taxes are taxes.

I don't know why you think an income tax on struggling middle class voters is somehow more fair than an inheritance tax on multi-millionaires.

In both cases the government takes money from people.

The estate tax is taxing money that has already been taxed once.

If there is going to be an income tax then everyone with an income should pay the tax.
The only fair income tax is a flat tax

I would be all for a flat tax on wealth- that would be 'fair' as far as I am concerned.

wealth isn't income.

but hey if you want a government stooge rifling through all your possessions every year and taxing you on them....

End the drug war to lower taxes.

Yeah, that's it .... typical liberal logic.

too fiscally responsible for the right wing?