How much can renewable energy save us?

[Skull Pilot]

Pump water up with excess energy, let gravity work in times of dearth.

yeah that won't cost an arm and a leg

 

[Skull Pilot]

substations do not have capacitance you idiot. Do you even know what a capacitor is?

An electrical substation is a transformer where power is either stepped up in voltage for transmission over long distance power lines or stepped down before it is sent over local electric lines to the end user in the home

substations can include capacitance, dear; it is the reason for the structure.

No.

You have to realize that just because you say something doesn't mean it's true
But why don't you show me a link to a substation that has capacitance?

Upgrading could make it true. It won't be free, but neither are our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror.

no

we don't need to make substations giant capacitors we need a reliable supply of steady power

substations with capacitance can store energy for more reliable and consistent output, regardless of variability in any given location. Besides, the wind is always blowing somewhere. A better grid can harness that energy.

yeah but getting that power to where the wind isn't blowing is the problem

 

[danielpalos]

It is why we need a better grid with better substations that have better capacitance.

How much capacitance does each substation have now?

not sure of any; but, there are some experiments in progress.

Cool. Link to a substation capacitance experiment.

Any form of grid energy storage could be housed in a substation structure. Subground should be an option for substations.

Grid energy storage - Wikipedia

So you were lying before when you said we already had this. Thanks for admitting your lie.

Somebody has some version of it.

To understand why undergrounding HVDC lines for great distances is feasible, while undergrounding HVAC lines for more than about 40 miles is not, it is necessary to consider the capacitance of air-insulated overhead lines versus cables, which are typically surrounded by polymer insulation and soil. Capacitance is a property of every electrical circuit, not just capacitors (which are designed deliberately for high capacitance). A wire suspended in air has much less capacitance (by about a factor of 50-100) compared to a cable, in which the wire is surrounded both by polymeric insulation and soil. The capacitance limits how fast the voltage responds at the far end of a power line when voltage is applied at the near end. Capacitance has only a small transient effect on a DC power transmission line, delaying the voltage rise at the far end of the line by milliseconds at most when voltage is applied at the near end. When capacitance of an AC line is too high though, it has a quite dramatic effect; this is the case because at 60 Hz, the voltage reverses 120 times per second (8.33 milliseconds for per reversal); each time this happens, the “line capacitor” needs to be charged up before any power can flow through the line. The much higher capacitance of a cable (especially one that is located underground or undersea) means that this limiting line capacitance is reached for a much shorter cable (50 to 100 times shorter) than an overhead line. Thus at most short bits of an AC power transmission line can be placed underground, whereas there is no problem in terms of power flow with putting a DC power line underground.--http://www.theenergycollective.com/roger_rethinker/204396/ac-versus-dc-powerlines

Substations could collect renewable energy, provide grid energy storage, and provide redundancy to our energy grid.

Clean Line’s HVDC transmission lines projects will deliver power from new, renewable energy resources. These resources will be AC generators, as is normally the case, and their energy will be transmitted along collector lines. These collector lines will then be connected to a substation where the power will be collected and the voltage will be transformed from the voltage of the collector lines to a common voltage (such as 345,000 volts). The power will then be converted to DC, a process known as rectification, using power electronic switches called thyristors. The power will then be transmitted several hundred miles along a set of conductors called a transmission line before getting converted back to AC, a process known as inversion, again using thyristors as the switching devices. After the DC power is converted back to AC it is transformed to the common voltage of the grid to which it is being connected (e.g. 500,000 volts or 765,000 volts, in the case of Clean Line’s projects). This power is then distributed via the interconnected grid by the local utilities to homes and businesses. See below for an illustration of this process.--http://www.cleanlineenergy.com/technology/hvdc/how

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

How much capacitance does each substation have now?

not sure of any; but, there are some experiments in progress.

Cool. Link to a substation capacitance experiment.

Any form of grid energy storage could be housed in a substation structure. Subground should be an option for substations.

Grid energy storage - Wikipedia

So you were lying before when you said we already had this. Thanks for admitting your lie.

Somebody has some version of it.

To understand why undergrounding HVDC lines for great distances is feasible, while undergrounding HVAC lines for more than about 40 miles is not, it is necessary to consider the capacitance of air-insulated overhead lines versus cables, which are typically surrounded by polymer insulation and soil. Capacitance is a property of every electrical circuit, not just capacitors (which are designed deliberately for high capacitance). A wire suspended in air has much less capacitance (by about a factor of 50-100) compared to a cable, in which the wire is surrounded both by polymeric insulation and soil. The capacitance limits how fast the voltage responds at the far end of a power line when voltage is applied at the near end. Capacitance has only a small transient effect on a DC power transmission line, delaying the voltage rise at the far end of the line by milliseconds at most when voltage is applied at the near end. When capacitance of an AC line is too high though, it has a quite dramatic effect; this is the case because at 60 Hz, the voltage reverses 120 times per second (8.33 milliseconds for per reversal); each time this happens, the “line capacitor” needs to be charged up before any power can flow through the line. The much higher capacitance of a cable (especially one that is located underground or undersea) means that this limiting line capacitance is reached for a much shorter cable (50 to 100 times shorter) than an overhead line. Thus at most short bits of an AC power transmission line can be placed underground, whereas there is no problem in terms of power flow with putting a DC power line underground.--http://www.theenergycollective.com/roger_rethinker/204396/ac-versus-dc-powerlines

Substations could collect renewable energy, provide grid energy storage, and provide redundancy to our energy grid.

Clean Line’s HVDC transmission lines projects will deliver power from new, renewable energy resources. These resources will be AC generators, as is normally the case, and their energy will be transmitted along collector lines. These collector lines will then be connected to a substation where the power will be collected and the voltage will be transformed from the voltage of the collector lines to a common voltage (such as 345,000 volts). The power will then be converted to DC, a process known as rectification, using power electronic switches called thyristors. The power will then be transmitted several hundred miles along a set of conductors called a transmission line before getting converted back to AC, a process known as inversion, again using thyristors as the switching devices. After the DC power is converted back to AC it is transformed to the common voltage of the grid to which it is being connected (e.g. 500,000 volts or 765,000 volts, in the case of Clean Line’s projects). This power is then distributed via the interconnected grid by the local utilities to homes and businesses. See below for an illustration of this process.--http://www.cleanlineenergy.com/technology/hvdc/how

Yeah, if we want to waste money on more expensive, less reliable "green energy", we should do that.

 

[danielpalos]

How much capacitance does each substation have now?

not sure of any; but, there are some experiments in progress.

Cool. Link to a substation capacitance experiment.

Any form of grid energy storage could be housed in a substation structure. Subground should be an option for substations.

Grid energy storage - Wikipedia

So you were lying before when you said we already had this. Thanks for admitting your lie.

Somebody has some version of it.

To understand why undergrounding HVDC lines for great distances is feasible, while undergrounding HVAC lines for more than about 40 miles is not, it is necessary to consider the capacitance of air-insulated overhead lines versus cables, which are typically surrounded by polymer insulation and soil. Capacitance is a property of every electrical circuit, not just capacitors (which are designed deliberately for high capacitance). A wire suspended in air has much less capacitance (by about a factor of 50-100) compared to a cable, in which the wire is surrounded both by polymeric insulation and soil. The capacitance limits how fast the voltage responds at the far end of a power line when voltage is applied at the near end. Capacitance has only a small transient effect on a DC power transmission line, delaying the voltage rise at the far end of the line by milliseconds at most when voltage is applied at the near end. When capacitance of an AC line is too high though, it has a quite dramatic effect; this is the case because at 60 Hz, the voltage reverses 120 times per second (8.33 milliseconds for per reversal); each time this happens, the “line capacitor” needs to be charged up before any power can flow through the line. The much higher capacitance of a cable (especially one that is located underground or undersea) means that this limiting line capacitance is reached for a much shorter cable (50 to 100 times shorter) than an overhead line. Thus at most short bits of an AC power transmission line can be placed underground, whereas there is no problem in terms of power flow with putting a DC power line underground.--http://www.theenergycollective.com/roger_rethinker/204396/ac-versus-dc-powerlines

Substations could collect renewable energy, provide grid energy storage, and provide redundancy to our energy grid.

Clean Line’s HVDC transmission lines projects will deliver power from new, renewable energy resources. These resources will be AC generators, as is normally the case, and their energy will be transmitted along collector lines. These collector lines will then be connected to a substation where the power will be collected and the voltage will be transformed from the voltage of the collector lines to a common voltage (such as 345,000 volts). The power will then be converted to DC, a process known as rectification, using power electronic switches called thyristors. The power will then be transmitted several hundred miles along a set of conductors called a transmission line before getting converted back to AC, a process known as inversion, again using thyristors as the switching devices. After the DC power is converted back to AC it is transformed to the common voltage of the grid to which it is being connected (e.g. 500,000 volts or 765,000 volts, in the case of Clean Line’s projects). This power is then distributed via the interconnected grid by the local utilities to homes and businesses. See below for an illustration of this process.--http://www.cleanlineenergy.com/technology/hvdc/how

it is about the wind always blowing, somewhere; substations can make that happen; if we upgrade capacity.

 

[Skull Pilot]

not sure of any; but, there are some experiments in progress.

Cool. Link to a substation capacitance experiment.

Any form of grid energy storage could be housed in a substation structure. Subground should be an option for substations.

Grid energy storage - Wikipedia

So you were lying before when you said we already had this. Thanks for admitting your lie.

Somebody has some version of it.

To understand why undergrounding HVDC lines for great distances is feasible, while undergrounding HVAC lines for more than about 40 miles is not, it is necessary to consider the capacitance of air-insulated overhead lines versus cables, which are typically surrounded by polymer insulation and soil. Capacitance is a property of every electrical circuit, not just capacitors (which are designed deliberately for high capacitance). A wire suspended in air has much less capacitance (by about a factor of 50-100) compared to a cable, in which the wire is surrounded both by polymeric insulation and soil. The capacitance limits how fast the voltage responds at the far end of a power line when voltage is applied at the near end. Capacitance has only a small transient effect on a DC power transmission line, delaying the voltage rise at the far end of the line by milliseconds at most when voltage is applied at the near end. When capacitance of an AC line is too high though, it has a quite dramatic effect; this is the case because at 60 Hz, the voltage reverses 120 times per second (8.33 milliseconds for per reversal); each time this happens, the “line capacitor” needs to be charged up before any power can flow through the line. The much higher capacitance of a cable (especially one that is located underground or undersea) means that this limiting line capacitance is reached for a much shorter cable (50 to 100 times shorter) than an overhead line. Thus at most short bits of an AC power transmission line can be placed underground, whereas there is no problem in terms of power flow with putting a DC power line underground.--http://www.theenergycollective.com/roger_rethinker/204396/ac-versus-dc-powerlines

Substations could collect renewable energy, provide grid energy storage, and provide redundancy to our energy grid.

Clean Line’s HVDC transmission lines projects will deliver power from new, renewable energy resources. These resources will be AC generators, as is normally the case, and their energy will be transmitted along collector lines. These collector lines will then be connected to a substation where the power will be collected and the voltage will be transformed from the voltage of the collector lines to a common voltage (such as 345,000 volts). The power will then be converted to DC, a process known as rectification, using power electronic switches called thyristors. The power will then be transmitted several hundred miles along a set of conductors called a transmission line before getting converted back to AC, a process known as inversion, again using thyristors as the switching devices. After the DC power is converted back to AC it is transformed to the common voltage of the grid to which it is being connected (e.g. 500,000 volts or 765,000 volts, in the case of Clean Line’s projects). This power is then distributed via the interconnected grid by the local utilities to homes and businesses. See below for an illustration of this process.--http://www.cleanlineenergy.com/technology/hvdc/how

it is about the wind always blowing, somewhere; substations can make that happen; if we upgrade capacity.

wind is still the least reliable of all power generation techniques that you don't understand this is a mystery

 

[danielpalos]

Cool. Link to a substation capacitance experiment.

Any form of grid energy storage could be housed in a substation structure. Subground should be an option for substations.

Grid energy storage - Wikipedia

So you were lying before when you said we already had this. Thanks for admitting your lie.

Somebody has some version of it.

To understand why undergrounding HVDC lines for great distances is feasible, while undergrounding HVAC lines for more than about 40 miles is not, it is necessary to consider the capacitance of air-insulated overhead lines versus cables, which are typically surrounded by polymer insulation and soil. Capacitance is a property of every electrical circuit, not just capacitors (which are designed deliberately for high capacitance). A wire suspended in air has much less capacitance (by about a factor of 50-100) compared to a cable, in which the wire is surrounded both by polymeric insulation and soil. The capacitance limits how fast the voltage responds at the far end of a power line when voltage is applied at the near end. Capacitance has only a small transient effect on a DC power transmission line, delaying the voltage rise at the far end of the line by milliseconds at most when voltage is applied at the near end. When capacitance of an AC line is too high though, it has a quite dramatic effect; this is the case because at 60 Hz, the voltage reverses 120 times per second (8.33 milliseconds for per reversal); each time this happens, the “line capacitor” needs to be charged up before any power can flow through the line. The much higher capacitance of a cable (especially one that is located underground or undersea) means that this limiting line capacitance is reached for a much shorter cable (50 to 100 times shorter) than an overhead line. Thus at most short bits of an AC power transmission line can be placed underground, whereas there is no problem in terms of power flow with putting a DC power line underground.--http://www.theenergycollective.com/roger_rethinker/204396/ac-versus-dc-powerlines

Substations could collect renewable energy, provide grid energy storage, and provide redundancy to our energy grid.

Clean Line’s HVDC transmission lines projects will deliver power from new, renewable energy resources. These resources will be AC generators, as is normally the case, and their energy will be transmitted along collector lines. These collector lines will then be connected to a substation where the power will be collected and the voltage will be transformed from the voltage of the collector lines to a common voltage (such as 345,000 volts). The power will then be converted to DC, a process known as rectification, using power electronic switches called thyristors. The power will then be transmitted several hundred miles along a set of conductors called a transmission line before getting converted back to AC, a process known as inversion, again using thyristors as the switching devices. After the DC power is converted back to AC it is transformed to the common voltage of the grid to which it is being connected (e.g. 500,000 volts or 765,000 volts, in the case of Clean Line’s projects). This power is then distributed via the interconnected grid by the local utilities to homes and businesses. See below for an illustration of this process.--http://www.cleanlineenergy.com/technology/hvdc/how

it is about the wind always blowing, somewhere; substations can make that happen; if we upgrade capacity.

wind is still the least reliable of all power generation techniques that you don't understand this is a mystery

it is about the wind always blowing, somewhere; substations can make that happen; if we upgrade capacity.

 

[danielpalos]

Grid scale, scalable batteries, is a market friendly solution:

 

[danielpalos]

Grid energy storage could be located in energy substations where natural energy can easily be generated by hydro or wind power and connect to any State grid; and

include battalion level infrastructure in case of emergency or evacuation.

A multi-use energy substation could be more cost effective. And better provide for the common defense and domestic tranquility of our free States. Food and shelter would be available to the People, in times of need.

 

[Old Rocks]

NAS grid-scale batteries. image: NGK.

Japan-headquartered NGK Insulators is the manufacturer of the NAS sodium sulfur battery, used in grid-scale energy storage systems around the world. ESN spoke to Naoki Hirai, Managing Director at NGK Italy S.r.l.

What is the history of NAS batteries and how have they progressed from early R&D to commercialisation?

Originally, the principle of the sodium sulfur battery was released in the United States, and it led to various trials in the US, Europe as well as Japan for the development of the battery to be utilised for electric automobiles or energy storage systems.

NGK started the development of the Beta Alumina electrolyte utilising the expertise of fine ceramic technologies in 1984, and extended it to the development of NAS (sodium sulfur) battery in 1989, jointly with TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Company).

It resulted in the only success of commercialisation in 2002. Up to now NAS is the most-used large scale battery in the world.

What are the applications NAS batteries are suitable for?

NAS batteries can store large amounts of energy and discharge for long durations, and can be configured for large-scale deployments. Therefore NAS batteries are suitable for energy type applications, such as energy shifting of renewables from off-peak to peak time, transmission and distribution (T&D) network management, and load levelling. Also NAS batteries can be used for ancillary services additionally to stack the benefits and the income.

What are some of the advantages of NAS batteries in comparison to other technologies for storing energy?

Heading the list of the NAS battery's advantages are long discharge times, six hours and more, large capacities available from 10s to 100s of megawatts, and long life; rated at 15 years, 4,500 cycles at 100% DOD (depth of discharge). The batteries' advantages also include compact design, it is easy to expand the system size as much as needed, they are quick to install and require minimal maintenance. In addition, NGK’s NAS battery systems are the only grid-scale battery storage with over 10 years of commercial operation. And in total cost per kWh, the NAS battery is less expensive than other technologies, such as lithium-ion or redox flow batteries.

NGK’s NAS sodium sulfur grid-scale batteries in depth

Japan

 

[Old Rocks]

Tesla Installs Its First European Grid-Scale Battery

Energy Storage News: First Grid-Scale Tesla Powerpack for Europe Installed in U.K.

The first grid-scale installation of the Tesla Powerpack system in Europe has been completed in the U.K. by Camborne Energy Storage and is already providing ancillary services to the National Grid.

The 500 kWh capacity system has been co-located with a 500 kWp solar farm in Somerset to demonstrate the potential to provide a balanced grid.

Each of Camborne’s installed systems are designed to further assist and improve the efficiency of the U.K.’s energy infrastructure, with this latest project providing firm frequency response to the grid.

Great Britain

 

[Old Rocks]

India’s First Grid-Scale Battery Project Signals a Coming Boom for Energy Storage

India has launched its first grid-scale battery storage system amid ambitious plans to integrate 175 gigawatts of renewable energy into the power system by 2022.

Commissioned and operated by Tata Power Delhi Distribution, the 10-megawatt Advancion energy storage array is a joint project by Mitsubishi and the U.S. energy storage company AES.

Designed for peak load management, the project couldn’t have come at a better time for India, said to Logan Goldie-Scot, an energy storage expert at Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

India

 

[Old Rocks]

World's Largest Storage Battery Will Power Los Angeles

By 2021, electricity use in the west Los Angeles area may be in for a climate change-fighting evolution.

For many years, the tradition has been that on midsummer afternoons, engineers will turn on what they call a “peaker,” a natural gas-burning power plant In Long Beach. It is needed to help the area’s other power plants meet the day’s peak electricity consumption. Thus, as air conditioners max out and people arriving home from work turn on their televisions and other appliances, the juice will be there.

Five years from now, if current plans work out, the “peaker” will be gone, replaced by the world’s largest storage battery, capable of holding and delivering over 100 megawatts of power an hour for four hours. The customary afternoon peak will still be there, but the battery will be able to handle it without the need for more fossil fuels. It will have spent the morning charging up with cheap solar power that might have otherwise been wasted.

USA

 

[Old Rocks]

Now I could continue for quite a few posts. There are many nations starting to adapt their grids to battery storage. There are many advantages to this, one of the prime is lowering cost of the electricity. For you do not need peaker generators, usually gas plants, for the high usage periods. Less generators and more efficient use of those you have. Win-win for all.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Now I could continue for quite a few posts. There are many nations starting to adapt their grids to battery storage. There are many advantages to this, one of the prime is lowering cost of the electricity. For you do not need peaker generators, usually gas plants, for the high usage periods. Less generators and more efficient use of those you have. Win-win for all.

you assume wind and solar will generate enough surplus power to store and that the stored power will be enough to power everything when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing

and you assume we can meet not only our existing power needs but the power needs that will grow if we get off of all fossil fuels and electrify everything from cars to household heat and hot water

 

[Viacheslav]

There are many nations starting to adapt their grids to battery storage.

Without subsidies, these solutions are in most cases uncompetitive in the market

 

[Whocares386]

I think Nuclear Fusion is really optimum and important for us because beauty of this type of nuclear reactor is that its fuel is hydrogen, which can be obtained from water. (Remember, we have no problem with water)

Eventually, humanity is very close to achieving a clean energy source.

There is an article about that:
Nuclear Fusion

 

[Old Rocks]

Nuclear fusion would be a real boon. But thus far, it has been very elusive, with some major engineering problems. In the meantime, grid scale batteries, solar, and wind are here, and economical.

 

[RGR]

Now I could continue for quite a few posts. There are many nations starting to adapt their grids to battery storage. There are many advantages to this, one of the prime is lowering cost of the electricity. For you do not need peaker generators, usually gas plants, for the high usage periods. Less generators and more efficient use of those you have. Win-win for all.

you assume wind and solar will generate enough surplus power to store and that the stored power will be enough to power everything when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing

The assumption did not appear to include doing EVERYTHING, obviously the examples provided are no different than the original buildout of gas fired turbines, coal fired plants, nuke plants, and recently the capacity in windmills and utility scale solar.

So sure, given exponential growth in new power generation, there isn't any reason to assume that such things can't do big chunks of our power generation in the future. And folks like my wife can continue to get free fuel from outstanding employers who care!

and you assume we can meet not only our existing power needs but the power needs that will grow if we get off of all fossil fuels and electrify everything from cars to household heat and hot water

Fortunately there is no need for this to happen quickly, but we are off to a good start! And with decent employers taking advantage of it to add free fuel to their employee benefits, this is good for those employees, I mean, free fuel? Employees will take it!

 

[Skull Pilot]

Now I could continue for quite a few posts. There are many nations starting to adapt their grids to battery storage. There are many advantages to this, one of the prime is lowering cost of the electricity. For you do not need peaker generators, usually gas plants, for the high usage periods. Less generators and more efficient use of those you have. Win-win for all.

you assume wind and solar will generate enough surplus power to store and that the stored power will be enough to power everything when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing

The assumption did not appear to include doing EVERYTHING, obviously the examples provided are no different than the original buildout of gas fired turbines, coal fired plants, nuke plants, and recently the capacity in windmills and utility scale solar.

So sure, given exponential growth in new power generation, there isn't any reason to assume that such things can't do big chunks of our power generation in the future. And folks like my wife can continue to get free fuel from outstanding employers who care!

and you assume we can meet not only our existing power needs but the power needs that will grow if we get off of all fossil fuels and electrify everything from cars to household heat and hot water

Fortunately there is no need for this to happen quickly, but we are off to a good start! And with decent employers taking advantage of it to add free fuel to their employee benefits, this is good for those employees, I mean, free fuel? Employees will take it!

yeah sorry but no one gets "free" anyting