How Lucky is the United States?

[American Horse]

"Extremely lucky," in the words of the radical philosopher and linguist Noam Chomsky, "that no honest, charismatic figure has arisen."

Chomsky, the author of a massive body of work including nearly 100 books and someone who has spent much of his 81 years exposing and deflating the lies of the power elite and the myths they perpetrate, continues:

"Every charismatic figure is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself, like McCarthy or Nixon or the evangelist preachers. If somebody comes along who is charismatic and honest this country is in real trouble because of the frustration, disillusionment, the justified anger and the absence of any coherent response."

I haven't read anything of Chomsky except this small example.

Either the quote was taken out of context, or Chomsky is a "partisan hack."

MLK was charismatic (AND a preacher)

JFK was charismatic

Ghandi was charismatic

Are all these "such obvious crooks?"

He is a "partisan hack" and I have read his (and Herman's) "Manufacturing Consent" in which they theorize that the media (along with academe) are willing tools and propaganda arm of corporatists to control us with their propaganda , blah, blah, blah.

 

[007]

I agree I don't see how President Bush could have accomplished any of those tasks.

As for President Obama, yes, he is charismatic, but the premise of the OP is that we are lucky that a charismatic AND honest individual has not arisen. President Obama is charismatic... he is not honest.

Immie

Obama is well-spoken. Charismatic though? I wouldn't say so. He's very level, which comes off to people as cold.

He's "well spoken?" Are you fucking KIDDING ME?! The guy is a stuttering BUFFOON without his PREPARED speeches on his TELEPROMPTER...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyW9e5QdWxk]YouTube - The Obama Stutter[/ame]

 

[Samson]

I agree I don't see how President Bush could have accomplished any of those tasks.

As for President Obama, yes, he is charismatic, but the premise of the OP is that we are lucky that a charismatic AND honest individual has not arisen. President Obama is charismatic... he is not honest.

Immie

Obama is well-spoken. Charismatic though? I wouldn't say so. He's very level, which comes off to people as cold.

He's "well spoken?" Are you fucking KIDDING ME?! The guy is a stuttering BUFFOON without his PREPARED speeches on his TELEPROMPTER...

And McCain couldn't win.

Debates.

No Teleprompter.

 

[georgephillip]

I agree I don't see how President Bush could have accomplished any of those tasks.

As for President Obama, yes, he is charismatic, but the premise of the OP is that we are lucky that a charismatic AND honest individual has not arisen. President Obama is charismatic... he is not honest.

Immie

Obama is at least the liar Clinton and Bush were, yet many on the left seem incapable of judging him by the content of his character and policies.

Given the current frail nature of advanced capitalism, I don't see how this republic survives another six years with Obama at the helm.

I agree regarding the Clinton, Bush statement.

I think we will survive the next six years.

I am, however, afraid that our time is running out. We are eating ourselves up from the inside out. All the other great civilizations have collapsed. I don't think we will be any different. Unless, of course, the end of time comes before we succeed in destroying ourselves.

Immie

Time may be running out for our specie as well.

Chomsky begins his 2003 best-seller Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance by quoting Ernst Mayr, "one of the great figures of contemporary biology."

"Mayr estimated the number of species since the origin of life at about fifty billion, only one of which 'achieved the kind of intelligence needed to establish a civilization.'"

"It did so very recently, perhaps 100,000 years ago.

"It is generally assumed that only one small breeding group survived, of which we are all descendants."

Quite possibly when the American Empire dies it will take the specie with it, and since Mayr noted the average life span for a specie on this planet is about 100,000 years....

It is hard to see how a "choice" between Republican OR Democrat can alter Mayr's dynamic.

 

[midcan5]

"Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune." Noam Chomsky


For the most part an interesting thread. Chomsky is interesting and often point on when it comes to American policy overseas. But most people like the glossy reader's digest version of reality, tough facts stand in the way of easy sleeping.

I don't think America could have stood another four years of Cheney/Bush. After FDR died in office the rules changed. But I think America was better because of him and they wanted him those twelve plus years. Truman is quite a character, the VP then was out of the loop. Rather odd given the war and the Manhattan project.

I've read a bit of Chomsky's work and I have to say he backs up his opinions. His "The Indispensable Chomsky" is fascinating reading. And the footnotes are so large they are on the internet.


"There isn't much point arguing about the word "libertarian." It would make about as much sense to argue with an unreconstructed Stalinist about the word "democracy" -- recall that they called what they'd constructed "peoples' democracies." The weird offshoot of ultra-right individualist anarchism that is called "libertarian" here happens to amount to advocacy of perhaps the worst kind of imaginable tyranny, namely unaccountable private tyranny. If they want to call that "libertarian," fine; after all, Stalin called his system "democratic." But why bother arguing about it?" - Noam Chomsky


Interesting links on or from Chomsky

On Terrorism, Noam Chomsky interviewed by John Bolender
Human Nature: Justice versus Power, Noam Chomsky debates with Michel Foucault

Noam Chomsky vs. William F. Buckley Debate
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYlMEVTa-PI]YouTube - Noam Chomsky vs. William F. Buckley Debate : Part 1 of 2[/ame]

 

[Samson]

Obama is at least the liar Clinton and Bush were, yet many on the left seem incapable of judging him by the content of his character and policies.

Given the current frail nature of advanced capitalism, I don't see how this republic survives another six years with Obama at the helm.

I agree regarding the Clinton, Bush statement.

I think we will survive the next six years.

I am, however, afraid that our time is running out. We are eating ourselves up from the inside out. All the other great civilizations have collapsed. I don't think we will be any different. Unless, of course, the end of time comes before we succeed in destroying ourselves.

Immie

Time may be running out for our specie as well.

Chomsky begins his 2003 best-seller Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance by quoting Ernst Mayr, "one of the great figures of contemporary biology."

"Mayr estimated the number of species since the origin of life at about fifty billion, only one of which 'achieved the kind of intelligence needed to establish a civilization.'"

"It did so very recently, perhaps 100,000 years ago.

"It is generally assumed that only one small breeding group survived, of which we are all descendants."

Quite possibly when the American Empire dies it will take the specie with it, and since Mayr noted the average life span for a specie on this planet is about 100,000 years....

It is hard to see how a "choice" between Republican OR Democrat can alter Mayr's dynamic.

Social Scientists are constantly trying to boost their thin credability through hyperbolic analogies to Physical Science.

But this recipe is even more ridiculous than average:

1. Take an estimate of the AVERAGE lifespan for ALL species,
2. and apply it to ONE species,
3. THEN One civilization......



For christssakes

 

[American Horse]

Time may be running out for our specie as well.

Chomsky begins his 2003 best-seller Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance by quoting Ernst Mayr, "one of the great figures of contemporary biology."

"Mayr estimated the number of species since the origin of life at about fifty billion, only one of which 'achieved the kind of intelligence needed to establish a civilization.'"

"It did so very recently, perhaps 100,000 years ago.

"It is generally assumed that only one small breeding group survived, of which we are all descendants."

Quite possibly when the American Empire dies it will take the specie with it, and since Mayr noted the average life span for a specie on this planet is about 100,000 years....

It is hard to see how a "choice" between Republican OR Democrat can alter Mayr's dynamic.

Social Scientists are constantly trying to boost their thin credability through hyperbolic analogies to Physical Science.

But this recipe is even more ridiculous than average:

1. Take an estimate of the AVERAGE lifespan for ALL species,
2. and apply it to ONE species,
3. THEN One civilization......



For christssakes

Yup! Anyone capable of making generalizations like that one are understandably in the camp of someone like Chomsky and automatically accept the thesis of the OP.

 

[Vanquish]

Obama is well-spoken. Charismatic though? I wouldn't say so. He's very level, which comes off to people as cold.

He's "well spoken?" Are you fucking KIDDING ME?! The guy is a stuttering BUFFOON without his PREPARED speeches on his TELEPROMPTER...

And McCain couldn't win.

Debates.

No Teleprompter.

Well done. I'm out of rep to give you, but consider this the same
And for the record, you weren't defending Obama - merely applying common sense. We need more of that on this board.

 

[007]

Obama is well-spoken. Charismatic though? I wouldn't say so. He's very level, which comes off to people as cold.

He's "well spoken?" Are you fucking KIDDING ME?! The guy is a stuttering BUFFOON without his PREPARED speeches on his TELEPROMPTER...

And McCain couldn't win.

Debates.

No Teleprompter.

That just illustrates how put off people were with McLame, and how pathetic the voting public is.

 

[007]

He's "well spoken?" Are you fucking KIDDING ME?! The guy is a stuttering BUFFOON without his PREPARED speeches on his TELEPROMPTER...

And McCain couldn't win.

Debates.

No Teleprompter.

Well done. I'm out of rep to give you, but consider this the same
And for the record, you weren't defending Obama - merely applying common sense. We need more of that on this board.

 

[georgephillip]

"Extremely lucky," in the words of the radical philosopher and linguist Noam Chomsky, "that no honest, charismatic figure has arisen."

Chomsky, the author of a massive body of work including nearly 100 books and someone who has spent much of his 81 years exposing and deflating the lies of the power elite and the myths they perpetrate, continues:

"Every charismatic figure is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself, like McCarthy or Nixon or the evangelist preachers. If somebody comes along who is charismatic and honest this country is in real trouble because of the frustration, disillusionment, the justified anger and the absence of any coherent response."

I haven't read anything of Chomsky except this small example.

Either the quote was taken out of context, or Chomsky is a "partisan hack."

MLK was charismatic (AND a preacher)

JFK was charismatic

Ghandi was charismatic

Are all these "such obvious crooks?"

Partisan hack is probably the only bit of libel never tossed in Noam's direction. He has a gift for infuriating the liberal intellectuals in this country as well as "conservatives" from Dick Cheney to David Brooks.

Dr King was undeniably charismatic and honest, but he was also overwhelmingly hated by a large majority of conservative white males. It's hard for me to imagine King taking control in this country the way Hitler did in Germany.

JFK had intelligence, charisma, and courage but his honesty seems open to debate. The deceits he helped foster in Vietnam and South America eventually cost the lives of millions of innocent people.

Ghandi's success in India would have been hard to duplicate in Alabama or Germany during his lifetime.

If you're interested in reading more Chomsky, this is one of his recent essays.

 

[georgephillip]

Thanks for the links, midcan5.

In one of Chomsky's recent essays, The Center Can Not Hold, he writes about Adam Smith, the 18th Century philosopher currently revered by many capitalists.

Smith saw how the principle architects of power in England were the merchants and manufactures, ..."who made sure policy would attend scrupulously to their interests however 'grievous' the impact on the people of England and worse, the victims of "the savage injustice of the Europeans' abroad: British crimes in India were the main concern of an old fashioned conservative with moral values.

"Bearing Smith's radical truism in mind, we can see (today) that there is indeed a global shift in power, though not the one that occupies center stage: a shift from the global work force to transnational capital, sharply escalating during the neoliberal years.

The FIRE sector (Finance, Insurance, Real estate) has taken the place of Smith's manufactures and merchants, and today's class war pits labor and industry against banker and broker.

 

[Samson]

"Extremely lucky," in the words of the radical philosopher and linguist Noam Chomsky, "that no honest, charismatic figure has arisen."

Chomsky, the author of a massive body of work including nearly 100 books and someone who has spent much of his 81 years exposing and deflating the lies of the power elite and the myths they perpetrate, continues:

"Every charismatic figure is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself, like McCarthy or Nixon or the evangelist preachers. If somebody comes along who is charismatic and honest this country is in real trouble because of the frustration, disillusionment, the justified anger and the absence of any coherent response."

I haven't read anything of Chomsky except this small example.

Either the quote was taken out of context, or Chomsky is a "partisan hack."

MLK was charismatic (AND a preacher)

JFK was charismatic

Ghandi was charismatic

Are all these "such obvious crooks?"

Partisan hack is probably the only bit of libel never tossed in Noam's direction. He has a gift for infuriating the liberal intellectuals in this country as well as "conservatives" from Dick Cheney to David Brooks.

Dr King was undeniably charismatic and honest, but he was also overwhelmingly hated by a large majority of conservative white males. It's hard for me to imagine King taking control in this country the way Hitler did in Germany.

JFK had intelligence, charisma, and courage but his honesty seems open to debate. The deceits he helped foster in Vietnam and South America eventually cost the lives of millions of innocent people.

Ghandi's success in India would have been hard to duplicate in Alabama or Germany during his lifetime.

If you're interested in reading more Chomsky, this is one of his recent essays.

I'm not sure why you're qualifying MLK's or Ghandi's ability to take control of Alabama?

Chomsky's opinion is clear: "Every charismatic figure is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself"

He makes no allowances for "being in Alabama."

 

[georgephillip]

I agree regarding the Clinton, Bush statement.

I think we will survive the next six years.

I am, however, afraid that our time is running out. We are eating ourselves up from the inside out. All the other great civilizations have collapsed. I don't think we will be any different. Unless, of course, the end of time comes before we succeed in destroying ourselves.

Immie

Time may be running out for our specie as well.

Chomsky begins his 2003 best-seller Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance by quoting Ernst Mayr, "one of the great figures of contemporary biology."

"Mayr estimated the number of species since the origin of life at about fifty billion, only one of which 'achieved the kind of intelligence needed to establish a civilization.'"

"It did so very recently, perhaps 100,000 years ago.

"It is generally assumed that only one small breeding group survived, of which we are all descendants."

Quite possibly when the American Empire dies it will take the specie with it, and since Mayr noted the average life span for a specie on this planet is about 100,000 years....

It is hard to see how a "choice" between Republican OR Democrat can alter Mayr's dynamic.

Social Scientists are constantly trying to boost their thin credability through hyperbolic analogies to Physical Science.

But this recipe is even more ridiculous than average:

1. Take an estimate of the AVERAGE lifespan for ALL species,
2. and apply it to ONE species,
3. THEN One civilization......



For christssakes

Would you agree with Mayer that the history of life on Earth refutes the claim that "it is better to be smart than to be stupid?" Beetles and bacteria, after all, are vastly more successful than humans in terms of survival.

Chomsky believes humans about to get an answer to the question of whether it's better to be smart than stupid.

"The most hopeful prospect is that the question will not be answered: if it receives a definite answer, that answer can only be that humans were a kind of "biological error," using their allotted 100,000 years to destroy themselves and, in the process, much else."

See: Chomsky: Hegemony or Survival pp1-2

 

[FireFly]

"There (Hitler's Germany) it was the Jews. Here it will be illegal immigrants and the blacks. We will be told white males are a persecuted minority. We will be told we have to defend ourselves and the honor of the nation.

"Military force will be exalted. People will be beaten up. This could become an overwhelming force. And if it happens it will be more dangerous than Germany.

No matter how high on the pedestal you put him or the eloquence of this writer he still sounds like a typical racist democrat playing the race card. This scenario he describes has already been so played-out.

 

[georgephillip]

"Extremely lucky," in the words of the radical philosopher and linguist Noam Chomsky, "that no honest, charismatic figure has arisen."

Chomsky, the author of a massive body of work including nearly 100 books and someone who has spent much of his 81 years exposing and deflating the lies of the power elite and the myths they perpetrate, continues:

"Every charismatic figure is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself, like McCarthy or Nixon or the evangelist preachers. If somebody comes along who is charismatic and honest this country is in real trouble because of the frustration, disillusionment, the justified anger and the absence of any coherent response."

I haven't read anything of Chomsky except this small example.

Either the quote was taken out of context, or Chomsky is a "partisan hack."

MLK was charismatic (AND a preacher)

JFK was charismatic

Ghandi was charismatic

Are all these "such obvious crooks?"

He is a "partisan hack" and I have read his (and Herman's) "Manufacturing Consent" in which they theorize that the media (along with academe) are willing tools and propaganda arm of corporatists to control us with their propaganda , blah, blah, blah.

Does Chomsky understand the class war?

"The war against working people should be understood to be a real war...Specifically in the US, which happens to have a highly class conscious business class...And they have long seen themselves as fighting a bitter class war, except they don't want anyone else to know about it."

 

[Samson]

Time may be running out for our specie as well.

Chomsky begins his 2003 best-seller Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance by quoting Ernst Mayr, "one of the great figures of contemporary biology."

"Mayr estimated the number of species since the origin of life at about fifty billion, only one of which 'achieved the kind of intelligence needed to establish a civilization.'"

"It did so very recently, perhaps 100,000 years ago.

"It is generally assumed that only one small breeding group survived, of which we are all descendants."

Quite possibly when the American Empire dies it will take the specie with it, and since Mayr noted the average life span for a specie on this planet is about 100,000 years....

It is hard to see how a "choice" between Republican OR Democrat can alter Mayr's dynamic.

Social Scientists are constantly trying to boost their thin credability through hyperbolic analogies to Physical Science.

But this recipe is even more ridiculous than average:

1. Take an estimate of the AVERAGE lifespan for ALL species,
2. and apply it to ONE species,
3. THEN One civilization......



For christssakes

Would you agree with Mayer that the history of life on Earth refutes the claim that "it is better to be smart than to be stupid?" Beetles and bacteria, after all, are vastly more successful than humans in terms of survival.

Chomsky believes humans about to get an answer to the question of whether it's better to be smart than stupid.

"The most hopeful prospect is that the question will not be answered: if it receives a definite answer, that answer can only be that humans were a kind of "biological error," using their allotted 100,000 years to destroy themselves and, in the process, much else."

See: Chomsky: Hegemony or Survival pp1-2

My point is that Social Science routinely makes pitiful attempts to compare their silly theories with Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Geology, and other studies based on detailed empirical evidence.

In this case, we're comparing the "success" of bacteria with humans.

Success being defined as species longivity.

Then we note that bacteria are less intelligent than humans

Then we leap to the conclusion that humans will become extinct because they are "smart."

Thus, we can call humans "a kind of biological error."

How Absurd.

Chomsky and his cadre of Social Scientists would do well to focus their attention on writing social science fiction: They'd at least be more entertaining.

 

[AquaAthena]

"Extremely lucky," in the words of the radical philosopher and linguist Noam Chomsky, "that no honest, charismatic figure has arisen."

Chomsky, the author of a massive body of work including nearly 100 books and someone who has spent much of his 81 years exposing and deflating the lies of the power elite and the myths they perpetrate, continues:

"Every charismatic figure is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself, like McCarthy or Nixon or the evangelist preachers. If somebody comes along who is charismatic and honest this country is in real trouble because of the frustration, disillusionment, the justified anger and the absence of any coherent response.

"What are people supposed to think if someone says 'I have got an answer, we have an enemy'?

"There (Hitler's Germany) it was the Jews. Here it will be illegal immigrants and the blacks. We will be told white males are a persecuted minority. We will be told we have to defend ourselves and the honor of the nation.

"Military force will be exalted. People will be beaten up. This could become an overwhelming force. And if it happens it will be more dangerous than Germany.

"The United States is the world power. Germany was powerful but had more powerful antagonists.

"I don't think this is all very far away. If the polls are accurate it is not the Republicans but the right-wing Republicans, the crazed Republicans, who will sweep the next election."

Noam Chomsky remembers the Great Depression vividly.
He recalls his entire family often went without work.

Yet he says: "I have never seen anything like this in my lifetime."

Avram Noam Chomsky born December 7, 1928) is an American linguist, philosopher,[2][3] cognitive scientist, and political activist. He is an Institute Professor and professor emeritus of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.[4] Chomsky is well known in the academic and scientific community as one of the fathers of modern linguistics.[5][6][7] Since the 1960s, he has become known more widely as a political dissident and an anarchist.[8]

"I have often thought that if a rational Fascist dictatorship were to exist, then it would choose the American system." -Noam Chomsky

 

[Samson]

Avram Noam Chomsky born December 7, 1928) is an American linguist, philosopher,[2][3] cognitive scientist, and political activist. He is an Institute Professor and professor emeritus of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.[4] Chomsky is well known in the academic and scientific community as one of the fathers of modern linguistics.[5][6][7] Since the 1960s, he has become known more widely as a political dissident and an anarchist.[8]

"I have often thought that if a rational Fascist dictatorship were to exist, then it would choose the American system." -Noam Chomsky

I suppose we now know how much MIT cares about the credentials of anyone who is an "American Liguist."

WTF is an "American Linguist?" Some aging '60 freak that needs a cushy job at a Lib State University?

 

[georgephillip]

I haven't read anything of Chomsky except this small example.

Either the quote was taken out of context, or Chomsky is a "partisan hack."

MLK was charismatic (AND a preacher)

JFK was charismatic

Ghandi was charismatic

Are all these "such obvious crooks?"

Partisan hack is probably the only bit of libel never tossed in Noam's direction. He has a gift for infuriating the liberal intellectuals in this country as well as "conservatives" from Dick Cheney to David Brooks.

Dr King was undeniably charismatic and honest, but he was also overwhelmingly hated by a large majority of conservative white males. It's hard for me to imagine King taking control in this country the way Hitler did in Germany.

JFK had intelligence, charisma, and courage but his honesty seems open to debate. The deceits he helped foster in Vietnam and South America eventually cost the lives of millions of innocent people.

Ghandi's success in India would have been hard to duplicate in Alabama or Germany during his lifetime.

If you're interested in reading more Chomsky, this is one of his recent essays.

I'm not sure why you're qualifying MLK's or Ghandi's ability to take control of Alabama?

Chomsky's opinion is clear: "Every charismatic figure is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself"

He makes no allowances for "being in Alabama."

How likely is it King or Ghandi would have mobilized Alabama the way Hitler swayed Germany?