How do Socialist lower the Unemployment Rate - Ask the French Grand Wizard!

[Rshermr]

America has never been a low tax, low regulation regime, ever. I don't know why you are still content in pedaling this lie.

If you think the quality of life is higher in France, then you have very low standards for yourself.

So, Another stupid statement, Amazon:

America has never been a low tax, low regulation regime, ever. I don't know why you are still content in pedaling this lie.

First, you suffer the ignorance of not understanding that the only tax rate that matters is the tax rate that is PAID. After all deductions. And in that case, should you care to check, the us is not that high nationally. Yup, we have a high published tax rate, but we also have the highest deductions of any industrialized country.
Then, what is never, Amazon. That would seem to be in HISTORY. Back to the formation of the union. But we do not have to go that far:
"In 1913, the top tax bracket was 7 percent on all income over $500,000 ($11 million in today’s dollars1); and the lowest tax bracket was 1 percent."
Uh, do you think that is low???

Maybe you believe a published rate of 25% for the highest earners would be low enough. Lets see:
"After the war, federal income tax rates took on the steam of the roaring 1920s, dropping to 25 percent from 1925 through 1931."
Now, that nice low rate was great for cons back then, and led to great increases in wealth for the wealthy. And the GREAT REPUBLICAN DEPRESSION. And I know you would like to try that again. The depression started in 1929. And still, repubs in control kept those nice low rates and allowed the economy to self correct. Standard con dogma. And watched the ue rate go from 3% to over 20%. Yea. We should really try that again.
History of Federal Income Tax Rates: 1913 ? 2011

Now, what is it. Because I know you would never, ever admit that you are wrong. Though you obviously are.
The real question is, why do you make statements like this. Why make a blanket statement that you can not support?? Why make a statement that is provably untrue?? Your agenda is showing.

Yeah, everyone knows the only type of taxes Americans have ever paid were federal income taxes. For sure.

So, perhaps you have some proof of the total taxes that americans have paid, and why you would say that they were high in comparison with the rest of the world. Or are you just making accusations based on your opinion??? Again.

 

[Rshermr]

So, Tania says it is not correct to only consider income taxes when saying that our tax rates have never been low in comparison with other countries. So, here is the link to the thumbnail below. Check it out, and you will see that there were only three countries where TOTAL tax payments were lower than in the us. Chile, Turkey, and Mexico. The others? All paid HIGHER total taxes. So, maybe we should shoot for economies like those three countries???

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/brie...ages/The-Numbers-Jan-2012-International_1.gif

 

[AmazonTania]

So, Another stupid statement, Amazon:


First, you suffer the ignorance of not understanding that the only tax rate that matters is the tax rate that is PAID. After all deductions. And in that case, should you care to check, the us is not that high nationally. Yup, we have a high published tax rate, but we also have the highest deductions of any industrialized country.
Then, what is never, Amazon. That would seem to be in HISTORY. Back to the formation of the union. But we do not have to go that far:
"In 1913, the top tax bracket was 7 percent on all income over $500,000 ($11 million in today’s dollars1); and the lowest tax bracket was 1 percent."
Uh, do you think that is low???

Maybe you believe a published rate of 25% for the highest earners would be low enough. Lets see:
"After the war, federal income tax rates took on the steam of the roaring 1920s, dropping to 25 percent from 1925 through 1931."
Now, that nice low rate was great for cons back then, and led to great increases in wealth for the wealthy. And the GREAT REPUBLICAN DEPRESSION. And I know you would like to try that again. The depression started in 1929. And still, repubs in control kept those nice low rates and allowed the economy to self correct. Standard con dogma. And watched the ue rate go from 3% to over 20%. Yea. We should really try that again.
History of Federal Income Tax Rates: 1913 ? 2011

Now, what is it. Because I know you would never, ever admit that you are wrong. Though you obviously are.
The real question is, why do you make statements like this. Why make a blanket statement that you can not support?? Why make a statement that is provably untrue?? Your agenda is showing.

Yeah, everyone knows the only type of taxes Americans have ever paid were federal income taxes. For sure.

So, perhaps you have some proof of the total taxes that americans have paid, and why you would say that they were high in comparison with the rest of the world. Or are you just making accusations based on your opinion??? Again.

Ever bought gasoline? You paid a tax on that. Ever bought a foreign good? You paid a tax on that. Ever earned any profits or gains? You paid a tax on that. Ever owned any property? You paid a tax on that.

If you have a life, the you've paid all kinds of taxes, and these were much higher since the inception of America as opposed to now. Some of these rates are still high. To assume that rates were lower based on one type of tax is just dumb.

 

[Rshermr]

Yeah, everyone knows the only type of taxes Americans have ever paid were federal income taxes. For sure.

So, perhaps you have some proof of the total taxes that americans have paid, and why you would say that they were high in comparison with the rest of the world. Or are you just making accusations based on your opinion??? Again.

Ever bought gasoline? You paid a tax on that. Ever bought a foreign good? You paid a tax on that. Ever earned any profits or gains? You paid a tax on that. Ever owned any property? You paid a tax on that.

If you have a life, the you've paid all kinds of taxes, and these were much higher since the inception of America as opposed to now. Some of these rates are still high. To assume that rates were lower based on one type of tax is just dumb.

Well, Tania, assuming just one tax covers all taxes paid WOULD be dumb. You apparently believe that is what I am doing. Which is an incorrect assumption. The graphs I provided to you in my last post were for ALL taxes. Including all consumption taxes. Here is an overview:

"The United States relies less on consumption taxes—18 percent of total 2008 tax receipts—than any other OECD country. Revenue from such taxes averaged 32 percent of total taxes among the 33 OECD countries. Mexico, in contrast, collected 60 percent of its 2008 tax revenue from consumption taxes.
Personal income taxes made up 38 percent of U.S. tax revenue in 2008, more than in most other OECD countries, where such taxes averaged 26 percent of the total. However, individual taxpayers paid a larger share of tax revenue in Denmark (52 percent) and New Zealand (41 percent)."
How do US taxes compare internationally?

So, that would be again (now pay attention, tania) ALL TAXES PAID. So did you have some proof of your statement of your belief that the us has never had a low tax rate??? Or did you just make it up??

 

[AmazonTania]

So, Tania says it is not correct to only consider income taxes when saying that our tax rates have never been low in comparison with other countries. So, here is the link to the thumbnail below. Check it out, and you will see that there were only three countries where TOTAL tax payments were lower than in the us. Chile, Turkey, and Mexico. The others? All paid HIGHER total taxes. So, maybe we should shoot for economies like those three countries???

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/brie...ages/The-Numbers-Jan-2012-International_1.gif

I really don't know why you believe income taxes are the only taxes which actually matter. There are all different types of taxes people pay. Maybe you've never paid any because you believe that there is only one type of tax which effects individuals, but US taxes are not low. Not on a city, state, or federal level. According to the tax misery index, I pay more in taxes than most countries on earth.

 

[AmazonTania]

So, perhaps you have some proof of the total taxes that americans have paid, and why you would say that they were high in comparison with the rest of the world. Or are you just making accusations based on your opinion??? Again.

Ever bought gasoline? You paid a tax on that. Ever bought a foreign good? You paid a tax on that. Ever earned any profits or gains? You paid a tax on that. Ever owned any property? You paid a tax on that.

If you have a life, the you've paid all kinds of taxes, and these were much higher since the inception of America as opposed to now. Some of these rates are still high. To assume that rates were lower based on one type of tax is just dumb.

Well, Tania, assuming just one tax covers all taxes paid WOULD be dumb. You apparently believe that is what I am doing. Which is an incorrect assumption. The graphs I provided to you in my last post were for ALL taxes. Including all consumption taxes. Here is an overview:

"The United States relies less on consumption taxes—18 percent of total 2008 tax receipts—than any other OECD country. Revenue from such taxes averaged 32 percent of total taxes among the 33 OECD countries. Mexico, in contrast, collected 60 percent of its 2008 tax revenue from consumption taxes.
Personal income taxes made up 38 percent of U.S. tax revenue in 2008, more than in most other OECD countries, where such taxes averaged 26 percent of the total. However, individual taxpayers paid a larger share of tax revenue in Denmark (52 percent) and New Zealand (41 percent)."
How do US taxes compare internationally?

So, that would be again (now pay attention, tania) ALL TAXES PAID. So did you have some proof of your statement of your belief that the us has never had a low tax rate??? Or did you just make it up??

Your own source only discuss three types of taxes. Not all taxes as you have claimed. Why respond to me if all you ever do is contradict yourself?

As for my proof, corporate taxes, tariffs, property taxes have always been high.

 

[Rshermr]

So, Tania says it is not correct to only consider income taxes when saying that our tax rates have never been low in comparison with other countries. So, here is the link to the thumbnail below. Check it out, and you will see that there were only three countries where TOTAL tax payments were lower than in the us. Chile, Turkey, and Mexico. The others? All paid HIGHER total taxes. So, maybe we should shoot for economies like those three countries???

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/brie...ages/The-Numbers-Jan-2012-International_1.gif

I really don't know why you believe income taxes are the only taxes which actually matter. There are all different types of taxes people pay. Maybe you've never paid any because you believe that there is only one type of tax which effects individuals, but US taxes are not low. Not on a city, state, or federal level. According to the tax misery index, I pay more in taxes than most countries on earth.

So, tania states the following with her accompanieing graph of a very large number of nations and the misery index:

I really don't know why you believe income taxes are the only taxes which actually matter.

What are you, tania, another non feedback organism?? I never stated ONLY income taxes, and my graph included all tax types. What is your problem with comprehension??

There are all different types of taxes people pay.

Yes there are. Obviously. And they are included in my link.

Maybe you've never paid any because you believe that there is only one type of tax which effects individuals, but US taxes are not low. Not on a city, state, or federal level. According to the tax misery index, I pay more in taxes than most countries on earth.

Wrong on all cases, me dear. You do not pay more taxes than any other country. If what you meant to say is that personal income taxes are higher, that would be rational, since we are a much larger country than nearly all in your graph. But if you are comparing percentages of personal income taxes paid to income (and I do not know why you are, since my last posts have all referenced international total tax payments) then apparently you are NOT concerned with total taxes but only personal income taxes. Which is it, tania???

Your chart is for all countries. Mine was of Industrialized Nations included in OECD. Not sure why you are at all concerned about the non industrialized nations. But whatever. Even in your graph, from the misery index, 44 of the roughly 60 nations paid higher taxes (total taxes, that is) than the US did. So, which of those 17 countries with lower rates are you suggesting we should emulate?? If you are assuming we have oil revenues per capita of UAE or Quatar, you are dreaming. Maybe Cypress. Or the USSR. Maybe Macedonia or Kazakhstan? See yet why analysts pretty much always compare us to the industrialized nations of the world??

You just really have a hard time admitting that you are wrong, tania. But you are. Sorry about that, but even your own graphs support what I have been saying.

 

[Rshermr]

Ever bought gasoline? You paid a tax on that. Ever bought a foreign good? You paid a tax on that. Ever earned any profits or gains? You paid a tax on that. Ever owned any property? You paid a tax on that.

If you have a life, the you've paid all kinds of taxes, and these were much higher since the inception of America as opposed to now. Some of these rates are still high. To assume that rates were lower based on one type of tax is just dumb.

Well, Tania, assuming just one tax covers all taxes paid WOULD be dumb. You apparently believe that is what I am doing. Which is an incorrect assumption. The graphs I provided to you in my last post were for ALL taxes. Including all consumption taxes. Here is an overview:

"The United States relies less on consumption taxes—18 percent of total 2008 tax receipts—than any other OECD country. Revenue from such taxes averaged 32 percent of total taxes among the 33 OECD countries. Mexico, in contrast, collected 60 percent of its 2008 tax revenue from consumption taxes.
Personal income taxes made up 38 percent of U.S. tax revenue in 2008, more than in most other OECD countries, where such taxes averaged 26 percent of the total. However, individual taxpayers paid a larger share of tax revenue in Denmark (52 percent) and New Zealand (41 percent)."
How do US taxes compare internationally?

So, that would be again (now pay attention, tania) ALL TAXES PAID. So did you have some proof of your statement of your belief that the us has never had a low tax rate??? Or did you just make it up??

Your own source only discuss three types of taxes. Not all taxes as you have claimed. Why respond to me if all you ever do is contradict yourself?

As for my proof, corporate taxes, tariffs, property taxes have always been high.

And tania says:

Your own source only discuss three types of taxes. Not all taxes as you have claimed. Why respond to me if all you ever do is contradict yourself?

As for my proof, corporate taxes, tariffs, property taxes have always been high.

Sorry.
that would be untrue. You need to read the information in the link. Corporate taxes and property taxes are included in the numbers in the graph I supplied. You need to learn to be honest. It is there, on the link, in black and white. It does not, as you say, expressly say tariffs are included. But if you would look at your own graph, and what is included, you would see no mention of tariffs there either. Please, tania. A bit of honesty please.

Relative to these taxes always being high, sorry. The sources say quite differently. You just do not want to admit what is there, in black and white. See why I suggest you are not an honest broker when it comes to debate??

Now, tariffs are another of your little incorrect statements. Tariffs in this country at least since the 1950's (not sure before that) have always been VERY LOW in this country, compared with other industrialized nations. In 2011, the tariff rate on all products imported was 1.78%. That, me dear, is hardly a high overall rate.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/uni...ighted-mean-all-products-percent-wb-data.html
But good try.
So, as for your proof??? You have none.

 

[AmazonTania]

Well, Tania, assuming just one tax covers all taxes paid WOULD be dumb. You apparently believe that is what I am doing. Which is an incorrect assumption. The graphs I provided to you in my last post were for ALL taxes. Including all consumption taxes. Here is an overview:

"The United States relies less on consumption taxes—18 percent of total 2008 tax receipts—than any other OECD country. Revenue from such taxes averaged 32 percent of total taxes among the 33 OECD countries. Mexico, in contrast, collected 60 percent of its 2008 tax revenue from consumption taxes.
Personal income taxes made up 38 percent of U.S. tax revenue in 2008, more than in most other OECD countries, where such taxes averaged 26 percent of the total. However, individual taxpayers paid a larger share of tax revenue in Denmark (52 percent) and New Zealand (41 percent)."
How do US taxes compare internationally?

So, that would be again (now pay attention, tania) ALL TAXES PAID. So did you have some proof of your statement of your belief that the us has never had a low tax rate??? Or did you just make it up??

Your own source only discuss three types of taxes. Not all taxes as you have claimed. Why respond to me if all you ever do is contradict yourself?

As for my proof, corporate taxes, tariffs, property taxes have always been high.

And tania says:

Your own source only discuss three types of taxes. Not all taxes as you have claimed. Why respond to me if all you ever do is contradict yourself?

As for my proof, corporate taxes, tariffs, property taxes have always been high.

Sorry.
that would be untrue. You need to read the information in the link. Corporate taxes and property taxes are included in the numbers in the graph I supplied. You need to learn to be honest. It is there, on the link, in black and white. It does not, as you say, expressly say tariffs are included. But if you would look at your own graph, and what is included, you would see no mention of tariffs there either. Please, tania. A bit of honesty please.

Property taxes are not included. There is no mention of property taxes in your source.

You are free to show how property taxes and tariffs are included, but until I are it, I'm going with the types of taxes mentioned in that source: Personal Income, Corporate and Consumption.

Relative to these taxes always being high, sorry. The sources say quite differently. You just do not want to admit what is there, in black and white. See why I suggest you are not an honest broker when it comes to debate??

Your source only compares three different taxes, where as mine compares many different types of taxes, including at the state/city level.

There really is no comparison.

Now, tariffs are another of your little incorrect statements. Tariffs in this country at least since the 1950's (not sure before that) have always been VERY LOW in this country, compared with other industrialized nations. In 2011, the tariff rate on all products imported was 1.78%. That, me dear, is hardly a high overall rate.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/uni...ighted-mean-all-products-percent-wb-data.html
But good try.
So, as for your proof??? You have none.

Tariffs are low now. Not since US inception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_history#Tariff_revenues

Try again.

 

[AmazonTania]

So, Tania says it is not correct to only consider income taxes when saying that our tax rates have never been low in comparison with other countries. So, here is the link to the thumbnail below. Check it out, and you will see that there were only three countries where TOTAL tax payments were lower than in the us. Chile, Turkey, and Mexico. The others? All paid HIGHER total taxes. So, maybe we should shoot for economies like those three countries???

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/brie...ages/The-Numbers-Jan-2012-International_1.gif

I really don't know why you believe income taxes are the only taxes which actually matter. There are all different types of taxes people pay. Maybe you've never paid any because you believe that there is only one type of tax which effects individuals, but US taxes are not low. Not on a city, state, or federal level. According to the tax misery index, I pay more in taxes than most countries on earth.

So, tania states the following with her accompanieing graph of a very large number of nations and the misery index:
What are you, tania, another non feedback organism?? I never stated ONLY income taxes, and my graph included all tax types. What is your problem with comprehension??

You're the one who replied to my post regarding income tax levels. Maybe you should think about what you write before writing it.

Wrong on all cases, me dear. You do not pay more taxes than any other country.

I pay 28% at the federal level, 6.25% at the state level and 7.7% for employee insurance. Couple this in, I'm already playing more than 40% of my income. And this doesn't even include all the capital gains, dividends and city income taxes I have to include as a part of my personal income.

Without this factored in, I still pay more the most countries on earth, as the chart suggest for someone living in NYC.

If what you meant to say is that personal income taxes are higher, that would be rational, since we are a much larger country than nearly all in your graph. But if you are comparing percentages of personal income taxes paid to income (and I do not know why you are, since my last posts have all referenced international total tax payments) then apparently you are NOT concerned with total taxes but only personal income taxes. Which is it, tania???

Neither. Taxes in generally. Just means ALL taxes. Not personal income taxes. Not percentages of income tax. I don't know why this is so difference for anyone to understand.

Your chart is for all countries. Mine was of Industrialized Nations included in OECD. Not sure why you are at all concerned about the non industrialized nations. But whatever.

Who cares.

Even in your graph, from the misery index, 44 of the roughly 60 nations paid higher taxes (total taxes, that is) than the US did. So, which of those 17 countries with lower rates are you suggesting we should emulate?? If you are assuming we have oil revenues per capita of UAE or Quatar, you are dreaming. Maybe Cypress. Or the USSR. Maybe Macedonia or Kazakhstan?

Hong Kong and Singapore. And you spelled Cyprus and Qatar incorrectly.

See yet why analysts pretty much always compare us to the industrialized nations of the world??

Cyprus, United Arab Emirates and Qatar are industrialised you rather confused and clueless individual…

You just really have a hard time admitting that you are wrong, tania. But you are. Sorry about that, but even your own graphs support what I have been saying.

There is nothing for me to be wrong about. You just want someone to argue with. Either that, or you're trying to win a debate for once.

 

[Rshermr]

Your own source only discuss three types of taxes. Not all taxes as you have claimed. Why respond to me if all you ever do is contradict yourself?

As for my proof, corporate taxes, tariffs, property taxes have always been high.

And tania says:

Sorry.
that would be untrue. You need to read the information in the link. Corporate taxes and property taxes are included in the numbers in the graph I supplied. You need to learn to be honest. It is there, on the link, in black and white. It does not, as you say, expressly say tariffs are included. But if you would look at your own graph, and what is included, you would see no mention of tariffs there either. Please, tania. A bit of honesty please.

Property taxes are not included. There is no mention of property taxes in your source.

You are free to show how property taxes and tariffs are included, but until I are it, I'm going with the types of taxes mentioned in that source: Personal Income, Corporate and Consumption.

Relative to these taxes always being high, sorry. The sources say quite differently. You just do not want to admit what is there, in black and white. See why I suggest you are not an honest broker when it comes to debate??

Your source only compares three different taxes, where as mine compares many different types of taxes, including at the state/city level.

There really is no comparison.

Now, tariffs are another of your little incorrect statements. Tariffs in this country at least since the 1950's (not sure before that) have always been VERY LOW in this country, compared with other industrialized nations. In 2011, the tariff rate on all products imported was 1.78%. That, me dear, is hardly a high overall rate.
Tariff rate; applied; weighted mean; all products (%) in the United States
But good try.
So, as for your proof??? You have none.

Tariffs are low now. Not since US inception.

Tariffs in United States history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Try again.

So, tania, unable to admit that she is wrong, says:

Property taxes are not included. There is no mention of property taxes in your source.

You are free to show how property taxes and tariffs are included, but until I are it, I'm going with the types of taxes mentioned in that source: Personal Income, Corporate and Consumption.

Jesus, tania. You are a non feedback organism. Tariffs were not included in my source, as I said. And they are not included in your source, as I said. Do you have concentration problems. Read what I said. And please show me where your source included tariffs.

Relative to property taxes my source says:
"U.S. taxes at all levels of government "
Did you think that property taxes were not levied by some level of government?
"Local governments received transfers from both the federal and state governments equal to about one-seventh of total revenue; from their own sources, they collected about $700 billion, or 17 percent of all government revenue.
Perhaps you think there is this thing called LOCAL TAXES and that is where local govs get their revenue. But in reality, the publishers of the data ASSUME YOU KNOW THAT ALMOST ALL REVENUE that goes to a local gov is PROPERTY TAX.
So, I could give you the same link above, but obviously you are incapable of reading and comprehending.
So, tania. As I am sure you are quite aware, your source and mine include EXACTLY the same tax types. Exactly. Both include property taxes. And neither include tariffs.

Then, Tania, who apparently has a very short and selective memory says:

Tariffs are low now. Not since US inception.

Now, that would support exactly what I said. Which was:
"Tariffs in this country at least since the 1950's (not sure before that) have always been VERY LOW in this country, compared with other industrialized nations."
Now here is the thing, Tania. You are discussing something that anyone with a light grasp of economic history of this country is quite aware of. And that is that Tariffs were the major source of revenue for the US until very shortly before we entered wwII. Then they became a very very small portion of the overall gov revenue. As your link shows perfectly. Prior to 1940 tariffs were significant. After that, they were not. So, what I said was completely true.
Now, did you have a concern about gov income sources before wwII???
It is not a matter of trying again, tania. It is a matter of if you care to have some level of integrity, and not try to twist. Your little games are getting really, really tiring. Which is why people give up on trying to have discussions with you. You are not an honest person, me dear.

 

[AmazonTania]

Jesus, tania. You are a non feedback organism. Tariffs were not included in my source, as I said. And they are not included in your source, as I said. Do you have concentration problems. Read what I said. And please show me where your source included tariffs.

Relative to property taxes my source says:
"U.S. taxes at all levels of government "
Did you think that property taxes were not levied by some level of government?
"Local governments received transfers from both the federal and state governments equal to about one-seventh of total revenue; from their own sources, they collected about $700 billion, or 17 percent of all government revenue.
Perhaps you think there is this thing called LOCAL TAXES and that is where local govs get their revenue. But in reality, the publishers of the data ASSUME YOU KNOW THAT ALMOST ALL REVENUE that goes to a local gov is PROPERTY TAX.
So, I could give you the same link above, but obviously you are incapable of reading and comprehending.
So, tania. As I am sure you are quite aware, your source and mine include EXACTLY the same tax types. Exactly. Both include property taxes. And neither include tariffs.

I shouldn't have to assume which types of taxes are included. I need to see where it shows this directly. Local taxes can be anything type of tax. Sales tax, Fuel Tax, Estate Taxes, or State Tax. Show me where it says property taxes directly. Do not assume something is include if it is not footnoted directly.

I also do not see where capital gains and dividends were mentioned there. Do I just assume they are talking about personal income taxes? Because they're not all that similar.

Now, that would support exactly what I said. Which was:
"Tariffs in this country at least since the 1950's (not sure before that) have always been VERY LOW in this country, compared with other industrialized nations."

It doesn't matter if it supports your notion or not. You took a position assuming I was making things up spouting my opinion. And then you had the nerve to say that I didn't have any proof.

If you weren't sure, it would have been better if you just stayed quiet. You're problem is that you talk far to much for someone who is often wrong.

Now here is the thing, Tania. You are discussing something that anyone with a light grasp of economic history of this country is quite aware of. And that is that Tariffs were the major source of revenue for the US until very shortly before we entered wwII. Then they became a very very small portion of the overall gov revenue. As your link shows perfectly. Prior to 1940 tariffs were significant. After that, they were not. So, what I said was completely true.

So? What does this have to do with the fact that tariffs were far higher in the past than they were now? And you are so wrong. Just choosing a random year here, in 1918 when the average Tariff Rate was 31.28%, the government collected $3.6 Billion in taxes. Tariff revenue only consisted of $947 Million. So I wouldn't exactly call that 'Major.'There were Federal Taxes, State Taxes as well as Corporate Taxes. There were

Now, did you have a concern about gov income sources before wwII???
It is not a matter of trying again, tania. It is a matter of if you care to have some level of integrity, and not try to twist. Your little games are getting really, really tiring. Which is why people give up on trying to have discussions with you. You are not an honest person, me dear.

You're the one being dishonest, as you are trying to turn this into a conversation about income sources. Nothing is being twisted. This has nothing to do with government income sources or revenues at all. This is about the high level of taxation which has existed then, and still exist now. the fact that government has collected less revenue as a result of high taxation has always been the case and is not the topic in question.

You are wrong.

 

[Auteur]

Numbers can often require a closer look. Overall, the quality of life in France is quite high compared to the US.

I've been to Europe many times. Have you?

Indeed I have. And I've also been across the USA, among other places. Let me give you a few small snippets of what I have seen.

In France: Honest and open debate about differing ends of the political spectrum, a debate not hijacked by the massive lobbying of corporate and special interests. And economic system in which individuals have rights to basic services, such as medical care, pensions, and income security. Communities built with an eye to environmental sustainability, rather than an eye to the needs of big oil.

In Florida: A populace blasted daily by rhetoric from the far right, and by a corrupted political system that depends on heavy donations from the corporate sector to survive. Families bankrupted by high medical costs; minimum wage workers sleeping in their cars after putting in a full working shift, because they cannot afford rent. Gated communities with armed guards. New ten lane freeways under construction, global warming be damned.

Funny? Depends on your sense of humour.

 

[Rshermr]

Jesus, tania. You are a non feedback organism. Tariffs were not included in my source, as I said. And they are not included in your source, as I said. Do you have concentration problems. Read what I said. And please show me where your source included tariffs.

Relative to property taxes my source says:
"U.S. taxes at all levels of government "
Did you think that property taxes were not levied by some level of government?
"Local governments received transfers from both the federal and state governments equal to about one-seventh of total revenue; from their own sources, they collected about $700 billion, or 17 percent of all government revenue.
Perhaps you think there is this thing called LOCAL TAXES and that is where local govs get their revenue. But in reality, the publishers of the data ASSUME YOU KNOW THAT ALMOST ALL REVENUE that goes to a local gov is PROPERTY TAX.
So, I could give you the same link above, but obviously you are incapable of reading and comprehending.
So, tania. As I am sure you are quite aware, your source and mine include EXACTLY the same tax types. Exactly. Both include property taxes. And neither include tariffs.

I shouldn't have to assume which types of taxes are included. I need to see where it shows this directly. Local taxes can be anything type of tax. Sales tax, Fuel Tax, Estate Taxes, or State Tax. Show me where it says property taxes directly. Do not assume something is include if it is not footnoted directly.

I also do not see where capital gains and dividends were mentioned there. Do I just assume they are talking about personal income taxes? Because they're not all that similar.

Now, that would support exactly what I said. Which was:
"Tariffs in this country at least since the 1950's (not sure before that) have always been VERY LOW in this country, compared with other industrialized nations."

It doesn't matter if it supports your notion or not. You took a position assuming I was making things up spouting my opinion. And then you had the nerve to say that I didn't have any proof.

If you weren't sure, it would have been better if you just stayed quiet. You're problem is that you talk far to much for someone who is often wrong.

Now here is the thing, Tania. You are discussing something that anyone with a light grasp of economic history of this country is quite aware of. And that is that Tariffs were the major source of revenue for the US until very shortly before we entered wwII. Then they became a very very small portion of the overall gov revenue. As your link shows perfectly. Prior to 1940 tariffs were significant. After that, they were not. So, what I said was completely true.

So? What does this have to do with the fact that tariffs were far higher in the past than they were now? And you are so wrong. Just choosing a random year here, in 1918 when the average Tariff Rate was 31.28%, the government collected $3.6 Billion in taxes. Tariff revenue only consisted of $947 Million. So I wouldn't exactly call that 'Major.'There were Federal Taxes, State Taxes as well as Corporate Taxes. There were

Now, did you have a concern about gov income sources before wwII???
It is not a matter of trying again, tania. It is a matter of if you care to have some level of integrity, and not try to twist. Your little games are getting really, really tiring. Which is why people give up on trying to have discussions with you. You are not an honest person, me dear.

You're the one being dishonest, as you are trying to turn this into a conversation about income sources. Nothing is being twisted. This has nothing to do with government income sources or revenues at all. This is about the high level of taxation which has existed then, and still exist now. the fact that government has collected less revenue as a result of high taxation has always been the case and is not the topic in question.

You are wrong.

See, me poor con tool. You just are unable to admit that you were wrong. Just as always. Just as you tried to avoid admitting that you were wrong when you suggested that gas was refined from crude on oil tankers. You Just say stupid things, then say that the other person was wrong.

So, see if you can read what I said. I never, ever said that tariffs were always low. I said they had been very low since the 1950. Which was absolutely true. Never, ever said they had always been low. That would be you lying again, tania. And no, tania. I never, ever lie. Never. I make mistakes, like you say you do not. But then, would you like to talk about refining gas on oil tankers, dipshit???
So we agree that they have been very low since 1940. As income taxes replaced tariffs as the major revenue source. As your reference showed. And, apparently you think that folks were unaware of that. But anyone with a bit of econ history is quite aware. What is funny is you pretending that your argument had anything at all to do with taxes before 1940.
And what is funny is that you claim that capital gains taxes are not shown in my reference. Were you aware that cap gains taxes show up in income taxes?? Cmon. Try to have just a bit of integrity. And local taxes can include state taxes??? You know better than that, me dear. Lies are one thing. But that is a really obvious lie. Because, you see, the reference spells out that there are STATE taxes and LOCAL taxes. As there always are. Are you really that ignorant. And, you see, the two are broken out seperately. Local taxes, you see, NEVER include state taxes. Are you educated yet. Of course not. You just ignore the obvious and come back with more stupid statements in order to ignore the truth. Very tacky. I really prefer to deal with people that have class. You have none.

When you are caught in a lie, it is really funny to watch you twist and try to change the subject. So, when was it that you believed that the us had high taxes?? You said they always did. And your statement that high tax rates always mean low tax collections??? Really. Never, ever happens that way, me dear. Which is why cons can never show such a case. Ever. Jesus, you are a tool.
By the way, you stated twice that your source showed tariffs were included in their numbers. I challenged you twice on that, saying that it did not. You did not admit your mistake. AGAIN. Now there is a surprise. So, where is that place in your source where they mentioned tariffs, me girl?? As I suspected, there was no place. It was another mistake. Then there was when you stated that the source I provided did not include property taxes. And I showed you where they stated that they did. Funny. Have not seen an admission of your mistake. Just you saying all local taxes do not include property taxes, but do include state taxes. Jesus. Try a more believable lie.

Jese, amazon. You make a lot of mistakes. And the funny thing is, you would suggest that you never do make mistakes. Funny. But that is what happens when you try to prove an agenda.

I am done with you. Your original premise that us taxes have always been high has been proven wrong. Multiple times. And you have tried to sidestep it with multiple lies. You are not worth the effort to discuss things with. Because you are not honest.

 

[AmazonTania]

So, see if you can read what I said. I never, ever said that tariffs were always low. I said they had been very low since the 1950. Which was absolutely true. Never, ever said they had always been low. That would be you lying again, tania. And no, tania. I never, ever lie. Never. I make mistakes, like you say you do not. But then, would you like to talk about refining gas on oil tankers, dipshit???

I don't care. The point is that tariffs were never low since the inception of the US, and you challenged me without knowing this bit of information.

You are wrong.

So we agree that they have been very low since 1940. As income taxes replaced tariffs as the major revenue source. As your reference showed. And, apparently you think that folks were unaware of that. But anyone with a bit of econ history is quite aware. What is funny is you pretending that your argument had anything at all to do with taxes before 1940.

Since the inception of the US (which means any year before 1940) tariffs have always been levied at such a high level. Corporate taxes and Income taxes just replaced the tariffs in terms of high taxation, but taxes still remained high.

A

nd what is funny is that you claim that capital gains taxes are not shown in my reference. Were you aware that cap gains taxes show up in income taxes?? Cmon. Try to have just a bit of integrity. And local taxes can include state taxes??? You know better than that, me dear. Lies are one thing. But that is a really obvious lie. Because, you see, the reference spells out that there are STATE taxes and LOCAL taxes.

It spells out state and local taxes, but nothing specific, which is why I asked you to show me how these were included. Doing the math myself, there is really no way the share of taxes relative to GDP is only 27.3%. And your source only covers taxes as late as 2008, so it's only fair that I cover all taxes within the same time frame.

In 2008, Individual Income Taxes, Corporate Taxes, Social Security/Retirement, Excise taxes and other taxes on the federal level accounted for 17.3% of GDP. Taxes from capital gains accounted for 7% of GDP. And you have 7.7% of total state taxes accounted for GDP. All together, that's 31.7% of GDP.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=205

http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/state_revenue_2008USrn

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=161

And this doesn't account for tariffs and corporate taxes which may have been paid at the state level. So I do not believe your source includes everything, just what is mentioned in the source.

As there always are. Are you really that ignorant. And, you see, the two are broken out seperately. Local taxes, you see, NEVER include state taxes. Are you educated yet. Of course not. You just ignore the obvious and come back with more stupid statements in order to ignore the truth. Very tacky. I really prefer to deal with people that have class. You have none.

And yet, you feel the urge to respond to me at every opportunity after you lose.

When you are caught in a lie, it is really funny to watch you twist and try to change the subject. So, when was it that you believed that the us had high taxes?? You said they always did.

The US has always had tariffs. And they've always been high until 1950.

And your statement that high tax rates always mean low tax collections??? Really. Never, ever happens that way, me dear. Which is why cons can never show such a case. Ever. Jesus, you are a tool.

Of course it happens that way. And that's very easy to prove for anyone who isn't an ideological hack such as yourself.

In 2007, GDP was 14.42 Trillion, the government collected $1.163 Trillion in income taxes, or 8.4% of GDP. Going back to the glory years of 1954, the government collected $29.54 Billion and GDP was 400.3 Billion or 7.8% of GDP. So the government collected more taxes in this financial era than before an the income tax is about a third of was it was before.

By the way, you stated twice that your source showed tariffs were included in their numbers. I challenged you twice on that, saying that it did not. You did not admit your mistake. AGAIN. Now there is a surprise. So, where is that place in your source where they mentioned tariffs, me girl?? As I suspected, there was no place. It was another mistake.

Show me where I have said such a thing.

Then there was when you stated that the source I provided did not include property taxes. And I showed you where they stated that they did. Funny. Have not seen an admission of your mistake. Just you saying all local taxes do not include property taxes, but do include state taxes. Jesus. Try a more believable lie.

Show me how property taxes are included and I will admit that I am wrong. So far, I've done the numbers myself and it does not add up.

Jese, amazon. You make a lot of mistakes. And the funny thing is, you would suggest that you never do make mistakes. Funny. But that is what happens when you try to prove an agenda.

I do make mistakes. Just never when I debate you. You're just that easy.

And of course, you never had an agenda. You're just some nobody on an internet forum engaging in topics above your level of understanding. Nope. No agenda for you.

I am done with you. Your original premise that us taxes have always been high has been proven wrong. Multiple times. And you have tried to sidestep it with multiple lies. You are not worth the effort to discuss things with. Because you are not honest.

You proved me wrong, and are still acknowledging that tariffs have always been high since the inception of America? Sounds very backwards to me.

 

[Rshermr]

Originally Posted by Rshermr View Post
So, see if you can read what I said. I never, ever said that tariffs were always low. I said they had been very low since the 1950. Which was absolutely true. Never, ever said they had always been low. That would be you lying again, tania. And no, tania. I never, ever lie. Never. I make mistakes, like you say you do not. But then, would you like to talk about refining gas on oil tankers, dipshit???
I don't care. The point is that tariffs were never low since the inception of the US, and you challenged me without knowing this bit of information.
I know that you do not care. And no, I am not wrong. Your opinion is that they are high, apparently. I have given you the proof that they are not. So, the real point is that your statement was that we always paid high taxes in the us. And you made something of tariffs being missed in my source. They were not so much nissed, either by my source, or by yours. Tariffs are now, and have been since the early 1940's, very, very low. As in a very small percentage of taxes paid in the us.

You are wrong.
That is your tag line. No, I am not wrong. I have proven what I said. You simply choose to believe that tariffs are a big deal. No expert I have ever seen believes that, since the 1940/s. So, you believe you are correct in the face of the evidence that you are wrong. Good for you.

Quote:
So we agree that they have been very low since 1940. As income taxes replaced tariffs as the major revenue source. As your reference showed. And, apparently you think that folks were unaware of that. But anyone with a bit of econ history is quite aware. What is funny is you pretending that your argument had anything at all to do with taxes before 1940.
Since the inception of the US (which means any year before 1940) tariffs have always been levied at such a high level. Corporate taxes and Income taxes just replaced the tariffs in terms of high taxation, but taxes still remained high.
Again, both my source and yours proved that taxes in this country are low. Even the misery index, which includes countries with no industry to speak of, shows the us in the lower 25% in terms of taxes paid. Sorry, you are doing that same strange thing that you do. Making authoritative statements that fly in the face of the evidence presented. Even your own evidence.


Quote:
And what is funny is that you claim that capital gains taxes are not shown in my reference. Were you aware that cap gains taxes show up in income taxes?? Cmon. Try to have just a bit of integrity. And local taxes can include state taxes??? You know better than that, me dear. Lies are one thing. But that is a really obvious lie. Because, you see, the reference spells out that there are STATE taxes and LOCAL taxes.
It spells out state and local taxes, but nothing specific, which is why I asked you to show me how these were included. Doing the math myself, there is really no way the share of taxes relative to GDP is only 27.3%. And your source only covers taxes as late as 2008, so it's only fair that I cover all taxes within the same time frame.

In 2008, Individual Income Taxes, Corporate Taxes, Social Security/Retirement, Excise taxes and other taxes on the federal level accounted for 17.3% of GDP. Taxes from capital gains accounted for 7% of GDP. And you have 7.7% of total state taxes accounted for GDP. All together, that's 31.7% of GDP.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=205

http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/s...venue_2008USrn

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=161

And this doesn't account for tariffs and corporate taxes which may have been paid at the state level. So I do not believe your source includes everything, just what is mentioned in the source.

Did you have a point???

Quote:
As there always are. Are you really that ignorant. And, you see, the two are broken out seperately. Local taxes, you see, NEVER include state taxes. Are you educated yet. Of course not. You just ignore the obvious and come back with more stupid statements in order to ignore the truth. Very tacky. I really prefer to deal with people that have class. You have none.
And yet, you feel the urge to respond to me at every opportunity after you lose.
Again, that thing about winning. That is your opinion. Mine is quite different. But me dear, the facts are the facts.
Quote:
When you are caught in a lie, it is really funny to watch you twist and try to change the subject. So, when was it that you believed that the us had high taxes?? You said they always did.
The US has always had tariffs. And they've always been high until 1950.
Tariffs became very small in 1940, They had been higher before that, yes. Which has nothing to do with today. And since they are and have been very low for over 75 years, makes your statement that they have always been high wrong. You see, me dear, should you care to look, you would see that we had very low taxes of any kind ALWAYS. And still, as my source proves, even today, we have the fourth lowest taxes of any industrialized nation. Tariffs included.
Quote:
And your statement that high tax rates always mean low tax collections??? Really. Never, ever happens that way, me dear. Which is why cons can never show such a case. Ever. Jesus, you are a tool.
Of course it happens that way. And that's very easy to prove for anyone who isn't an ideological hack such as yourself.

In 2007, GDP was 14.42 Trillion, the government collected $1.163 Trillion in income taxes, or 8.4% of GDP. Going back to the glory years of 1954, the government collected $29.54 Billion and GDP was 400.3 Billion or 7.8% of GDP. So the government collected more taxes in this financial era than before an the income tax is about a third of was it was before.
Wow. Nice try. You are talking about highest tax rates. Which, if you knew anything about economics, you would know were never, ever paid. You would have to know a lot more about the circumstances than you want to know. But, you could consider the reagan years, when tax collections dropped when the rates were dropped significantly.
Problem is, you are trying to make a simplistic argument for a very complex subject. For instance, you do not consider employment rates. You see, when ue is low, tax collections increase. You are not considering the business cycle. When business is doing very well, tax collections do better.

Quote:
By the way, you stated twice that your source showed tariffs were included in their numbers. I challenged you twice on that, saying that it did not. You did not admit your mistake. AGAIN. Now there is a surprise. So, where is that place in your source where they mentioned tariffs, me girl?? As I suspected, there was no place. It was another mistake.
Show me where I have said such a thing.
Read your own posts. You made the claim several times.

Quote:
Then there was when you stated that the source I provided did not include property taxes. And I showed you where they stated that they did. Funny. Have not seen an admission of your mistake. Just you saying all local taxes do not include property taxes, but do include state taxes. Jesus. Try a more believable lie.
Show me how property taxes are included and I will admit that I am wrong. So far, I've done the numbers myself and it does not add up.
So, since local revenues are made up of about 75% sales tax, there is absolutely no need to say anything. You, being a con, want to prove something that is absolutely stupid. Sorry, tania. Get a grip. Here iis the same source showing the percentage of total local taxes that are property taxes
Local Property Taxes as a Percentage of Local Tax Revenue
So, what, tania, are you going to try to say the organization that produced the numbers I gave you left out three quarters of the revenues for local governments???

Quote:
Jese, amazon. You make a lot of mistakes. And the funny thing is, you would suggest that you never do make mistakes. Funny. But that is what happens when you try to prove an agenda.
I do make mistakes. Just never when I debate you. You're just that easy.
Sure tania. Do you enjoy being delusional???

And of course, you never had an agenda. You're just some nobody on an internet forum engaging in topics above your level of understanding. Nope. No agenda for you.
Yup. I have an agenda. I like the truth. I hate finding that i have been believing something that is untrue. And I really hate it when I find I am being led by the nose to believe something that is untrue. Which would be a foreign sort of thinking to you, tania. But it is nice of you to admit you have an agenda.
Quote:
I am done with you. Your original premise that us taxes have always been high has been proven wrong. Multiple times. And you have tried to sidestep it with multiple lies. You are not worth the effort to discuss things with. Because you are not honest.

__________________

 

[AmazonTania]

I know that you do not care. And no, I am not wrong. Your opinion is that they are high, apparently. I have given you the proof that they are not. So, the real point is that your statement was that we always paid high taxes in the us. And you made something of tariffs being missed in my source.

My misery tax index disputes your source. So you are wrong.

They were not so much nissed, either by my source, or by yours. Tariffs are now, and have been since the early 1940's, very, very low. As in a very small percentage of taxes paid in the us.

I've already calculated three taxes as a percentage of GDP and those taxes are already higher than your source estimates. Obviously, you source doesn't include tariffs, as well as many other forms of taxation.

That is your tag line. No, I am not wrong. I have proven what I said. You simply choose to believe that tariffs are a big deal. No expert I have ever seen believes that, since the 1940/s. So, you believe you are correct in the face of the evidence that you are wrong. Good for you.

Tariffs are a big deal if you are consistently involved in trade. A trade balance is a big portion of GDP. Thats very basic and non debateable.

Again, both my source and yours proved that taxes in this country are low. Even the misery index, which includes countries with no industry to speak of, shows the us in the lower 25% in terms of taxes paid. Sorry, you are doing that same strange thing that you do. Making authoritative statements that fly in the face of the evidence presented. Even your own evidence.

Clearly you didn't look at my source carefully.

Most of the countries below the US have industrial bases. So we can add your lack of industrialisation understanding to your list of short comings.

The misery index compares other counties on a state and federal level. The federal level is only for US citizens who are living outside the US. they are still subjected to a tax at the federal level of 35%, which is the only tax level you want to look at for whatever reason.

If you live inside the US, you are taxes at the state and federal level, which is as high as 45% if you are living in NYC like I am. See how my source clearly shows how both state and federal taxes are included? Not like yours were I have to assume the taxes are included.

As long as you live in the US, your taxes are higher than most countries. You also pay taxes on anything you earn, no matter where you are in the world if you are a citizen of the US. That's not debateable.

Did you have a point???

The point is, your source clearly doesn't include all taxes as you claim.

Again, that thing about winning. That is your opinion. Mine is quite different. But me dear, the facts are the facts.

And the facts are you are wrong. You can't even understand your own facts. It has to be explained for you. Please keep your promise for once and ignore me so I can debate someone worthy. You're a very distracting individual.

Tariffs became very small in 1940, They had been higher before that, yes. Which has nothing to do with today. And since they are and have been very low for over 75 years, makes your statement that they have always been high wrong. You see, me dear, should you care to look, you would see that we had very low taxes of any kind ALWAYS. And still, as my source proves, even today, we have the fourth lowest taxes of any industrialized nation. Tariffs included.

No, we don't. On the federal level, the US is ranked 19th. On the state and federal level, the US is ranked higher than 30.

According to my source, someone living in the US in the city of New York pays more taxes than someone living in Denmark.

Wow. Nice try. You are talking about highest tax rates. Which, if you knew anything about economics, you would know were never, ever paid. You would have to know a lot more about the circumstances than you want to know. But, you could consider the reagan years, when tax collections dropped when the rates were dropped significantly.

Tax receipts dropped with each passage of a new tax law. Not when rates dropped. Again, very easy to see for anyone who isn't an ideological hack.

Problem is, you are trying to make a simplistic argument for a very complex subject. For instance, you do not consider employment rates. You see, when ue is low, tax collections increase. You are not considering the business cycle. When business is doing very well, tax collections do better.

I did take the business cycle into consideration. Which is why you didn't see me compare 1954 to 2012. Even then, the government is still collecting the same amount of taxes as a share of GDP. Comparing revenue in relative terms is the best way to understand how much more revenue was collected.

You are wrong.

Read your own posts. You made the claim several times.

If I indeed made such statements, then you should have no problem citing or showing where I have made such mistake.

So, since local revenues are made up of about 75% sales tax, there is absolutely no need to say anything. You, being a con, want to prove something that is absolutely stupid. Sorry, tania. Get a grip. Here iis the same source showing the percentage of total local taxes that are property taxes
Local Property Taxes as a Percentage of Local Tax Revenue
So, what, tania, are you going to try to say the organization that produced the numbers I gave you left out three quarters of the revenues for local governments???

LMAO, I never said that state taxes doesn't include any if those things. I asked you to show me how you source DOES include all of those things. If you calculate that into the amount of total tax revenue at the state level, there is no possible way Taxes at a share of GDP would be 27.3% for the US.

You've just proved my point for me. The OECD used three (four at best) different types of taxes. I've used the types of taxes and I've found that taxes as a share of GDP is much higher than the OECD is projecting.

So you need to show me how all taxes are included, as you have said. Offer more than your mere say so.

Sure tania. Do you enjoy being delusional???

Nothing delusional about it. You're not good at research. Your not good at debating. You're analysis is the worst sort of tripe and your economical understanding is left to be desired.

Yup. I have an agenda. I like the truth. I hate finding that i have been believing something that is untrue. And I really hate it when I find I am being led by the nose to believe something that is untrue. Which would be a foreign sort of thinking to you, tania. But it is nice of you to admit you have an agenda.

You wouldn't know the truth of you slept in bed with it. And I've already told you what my agenda is: to make money. As being good in my field allows me to make what I do.

What are you good at doing, pretending to be somewhat knowledgable armed with google as an economic textbook? Clearly.