House repubs to target Social Security and Medicare cuts

[Mr Natural]

Why not wait till you're DEAD to be eligible?

There you go!

Now you’re thinking like a good Republican.

 

[hadit]

It isn't "government subsidized" jack ass.

We all paid into it

All excess SS funds go into the general fund, where they are promptly spent. That money has to be repaid out of the general fund, which is borrowed from any source that will pony up some money. Take that cycle out of the picture, allow the excess funds to be invested outside of the government, and you can say it's not government subsidized.

 

[hadit]

:::: headshake::::

Do you deny that the average lifespan was 63 years when SS was instituted, two years less than the retirement age? SS was never intended to provide the average worker 12 years of idleness after retirement, it was designed to provide basic living for the truly elderly who had no other resources. Before SS, you died while you were working, or your kids took care of you after you couldn't work anymore. Only since then have we decided that society would have to take care of the elderly.

I like the Amish solution. As each child reaches adulthood, they move out and start their own families. The youngest stays, builds an apartment onto the house for Mom and Dad to live in when they get too old to work, take care of them, and in turn, inherit the family farm.

 

[hadit]

Why not wait till you're DEAD to be eligible?

That's the original plan. Most workers died before they could begin collecting. It's a brutal truth, and one that's conveniently lost to memory. Tell us this though, WHY should the taxpayers give the average worker 12 years of idleness (and yes, it's the taxpayers of today that support the retirees of today because their contributions are long ago spent)? Why? If we stuck to the original model, SS eligibility wouldn't start until the age of 79, the program would still be flush with funds, and our payroll taxes would be much lower.

 

[kyzr]

Neither party is going to significantly damage those programs because they are a treasure trove of sure votes. It's hard to run against Santa Claus.

Santa Claus? I don't know about you butthead but I paid into Social Security my entire working life.
I earned and paid for those benefits.

 

[kyzr]

I had.

You repeatedly said raising the Full Retirement Age was not a cut because current recipients and those over 54 would be grandfathered.

I showed you mathematically though that yes, raising FRA is a cut for those under the grandfather age as it means not being eligibile for FRA benefits until later. Later benefits means less payout over the same period.

WW

...yeah but you also need to factor in that the younger people live longer than their ancestors and therefore receive a larger payout of benefits. This one is for the actuaries to deal with.

 

[kyzr]

And there ya have it.
Fucking with Social Security and Medicare for people already living off it or soon to retire is political suicide.
So they target MY KID'S retirement thinking that is politically safer.
Fuck that

Your kids should live longer than you and will therefore get many more SS payments.
This is one for the actuaries to deal with.
Your kids are not getting cheated.

 

[hadit]

Santa Claus? I don't know about you butthead but I paid into Social Security my entire working life.
I earned and paid for those benefits.

Have you added up the total amount you paid in and compared it to how much you'll get out? The average worker pays $3,000/year into SS. Now, let's say you work for 45 years, from age 20 to 65 and pay that much every year. That's a grand total of $135,000 you pay in. Now, the average SS payout is $16,800/year. That means that you stop getting back what you paid in and start getting more out after 8 years. Are you going to stop collecting SS when you're 73? That's all that you earned and paid for, after all.

 

[hadit]

Your kids should live longer than you and will therefore get many more SS payments.
This is one for the actuaries to deal with.
Your kids are not getting cheated.

Especially if they raise the retirement age slowly and grandfather in those above a certain age as they go. The bottom line is, the current setup is unsustainable, and they're just kicking the can down the road, hoping the crash won't happen on their watch.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Do you deny that the average lifespan was 63 years when SS was instituted, two years less than the retirement age? SS was never intended to provide the average worker 12 years of idleness after retirement, it was designed to provide basic living for the truly elderly who had no other resources. Before SS, you died while you were working, or your kids took care of you after you couldn't work anymore. Only since then have we decided that society would have to take care of the elderly.

I like the Amish solution. As each child reaches adulthood, they move out and start their own families. The youngest stays, builds an apartment onto the house for Mom and Dad to live in when they get too old to work, take care of them, and in turn, inherit the family farm.

See there is a problem with coaching the argument in terms of life span.

The "average life span" is skewed by infant mortality rates which were MUCH high a century ago than they are today. The high infant rates shifted the life expectancy years to the left (younger). The measure is better to look at average number of years drawing a benefit to compare.

Social Security History

Years of drawing benefits is only 2.6 higher (as of 1990) that it was 50 years previously and 4.9 years higher for females. (And as more women have entered the workforce compared to earlier decades I would think that difference would have shrunk for women leading more stressful working careers.)

.
.
.
.
Life expectancy is not the correct measurement as it leads to misleading conclusions. Average number of years drawing the benefit is a better measurement.

IMHO of course.

WW

 

[WorldWatcher]

That's the original plan. Most workers died before they could begin collecting. It's a brutal truth, and one that's conveniently lost to memory

No, most workers did not die before being able to draw social security.

Actually the majority of workers reached retirement age.

When you actually look at workers and exclude infant mortality which was higher.

WW

 

[WorldWatcher]

Have you added up the total amount you paid in and compared it to how much you'll get out? The average worker pays $3,000/year into SS. Now, let's say you work for 45 years, from age 20 to 65 and pay that much every year. That's a grand total of $135,000 you pay in. Now, the average SS payout is $16,800/year. That means that you stop getting back what you paid in and start getting more out after 8 years. Are you going to stop collecting SS when you're 73? That's all that you earned and paid for, after all.

Now do the calculation with compound interest over those 45 years. Let's say a reasonable rate of return at 3-4%.

WW

 

[WorldWatcher]

Especially if they raise the retirement age slowly and grandfather in those above a certain age as they go. The bottom line is, the current setup is unsustainable, and they're just kicking the can down the road, hoping the crash won't happen on their watch.

The "grandfather" part is just to make it palatable to try to not get seniors (those 50 and older) to oppose it.

The "grandfather" clause does not fix the short term problems with SS funding. You grandfather someone that is 50 today and the problem still exists for the next 20 years (assuming the new "higher" Full Retirement Age gets pushed from 67 to 70). Someone 50 today reaches FRA in 2043. So it would be 2044 and beyond before an age change would have any impact.

WW

 

[Cellblock2429]

I had.

You repeatedly said raising the Full Retirement Age was not a cut because current recipients and those over 54 would be grandfathered.

I showed you mathematically though that yes, raising FRA is a cut for those under the grandfather age as it means not being eligibile for FRA benefits until later. Later benefits means less payout over the same period.

WW

/———/ I never said raising the Full Retirement Age was not a cut. I saw it in this thread, and I agree delaying the retirement age is a cut.

 

[WorldWatcher]

/———/ I never said raising the Full Retirement Age was not a cut. I saw it in this thread, and I agree delaying the retirement age is a cut.

Then my bad and apologies.

I probably misunderstood.

WW

 

[kyzr]

Have you added up the total amount you paid in and compared it to how much you'll get out? The average worker pays $3,000/year into SS. Now, let's say you work for 45 years, from age 20 to 65 and pay that much every year. That's a grand total of $135,000 you pay in. Now, the average SS payout is $16,800/year. That means that you stop getting back what you paid in and start getting more out after 8 years. Are you going to stop collecting SS when you're 73? That's all that you earned and paid for, after all.

You obviously have no clue about the time value of money. Don't post if you don't know the subject matter.

 

[Lesh]

All excess SS funds go into the general fund, where they are promptly spent. That money has to be repaid out of the general fund, which is borrowed from any source that will pony up some money. Take that cycle out of the picture, allow the excess funds to be invested outside of the government, and you can say it's not government subsidized.

Yea. Put it in bitcoin

Sheesh

 

[WorldWatcher]

...yeah but you also need to factor in that the younger people live longer than their ancestors and therefore receive a larger payout of benefits. This one is for the actuaries to deal with.

The biggest impact on life expectancy increases is actually decreases in the infant mortality rate from a century ago.

Down from 100 per 1000 births to in 1915 to 7.5 per 1000 births by 1997, further decreasing to 5.4 per 1000 in 2020.

WW

 

[Jessica-stormlover]

It should be increased to keep up with inflation and the age cap lowered a few years. That is a fact.

 

[initforme]

Make people work longer so corporations can use them up so then they have a short retirement.