House passes concealed carry bill, tosses state rights and const. out window.

[Warrior102]

One more reason the Boehner House will go down as the most do-nothing and divisive Congress in the history of the United States. As pointed out above, where IS the jobs bill?

Never mind the jobs bill, where are the jobs Mr. President promised ??

They were finished when the census ended.

Oh yeah, that's right. They were finished right before Cash For Clunkers and all those shovel-ready jobs kicked in.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Federal law is supreme, that’s been true since the early 19th Century, see: McCulloch v. Maryland (1819) and Gibbons v. Ogden (1824).

Yes, but federal supremacy does not allow for Congress to enact statutes that violate each state's constitutional rights and powers. The constitution is supreme to acts of Congress.

Not if those laws conflict with Federal law or are otherwise un-Constitutional.

But if the federal law would be unconstitutional if it interferes with a power directly granted to the states by the constitution.

 

[The Rabbi]

Is marriage in the Constitution?

Is concealed carry in the constitution? No, it's not. The 2nd amendment does not protect concealed carry. You know this. The courts have already been over this before.

Licensing IS in the constitution, and you're the one who brought up the full faith and credit clause. It's a joke to suggest that full faith and credit means that each state has to make an exception to its own laws regarding concealed carry permits. Especially when arguing that the taking place of a marriage ceremony does not have to be recognized under full faith and credit. Because that's all that it is, RECOGNIZING THAT IT TOOK PLACE. Government doesn't create or define marriage. It can record that it's happened, but that's it. Anything else is big government bullshit.

You're right that concealed carry is not in the Constitution. The right to keep and BEAR arms is. Bear means carry, whether concealed or open. The gov't can show an interest in regulating it, but they must show an interest.
Where is licensing in the Constitution? Please quote the relevant text.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Federal law is supreme, that’s been true since the early 19th Century, see: McCulloch v. Maryland (1819) and Gibbons v. Ogden (1824).

Yes, but federal supremacy does not allow for Congress to enact statutes that violate each state's constitutional rights and powers. The constitution is supreme to acts of Congress.

Not if those laws conflict with Federal law or are otherwise un-Constitutional.

But if the federal law would be unconstitutional if it interferes with a power directly granted to the states by the constitution.

Yes, but federal supremacy does not allow for Congress to enact statutes that violate each state's constitutional rights and powers. The constitution is supreme to acts of Congress.

The tenth amendment states

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Any second Amendment issue was delegated to the federal government by the states.

 

[The Rabbi]

Federal law is supreme, that’s been true since the early 19th Century, see: McCulloch v. Maryland (1819) and Gibbons v. Ogden (1824).

Yes, but federal supremacy does not allow for Congress to enact statutes that violate each state's constitutional rights and powers. The constitution is supreme to acts of Congress.

Not if those laws conflict with Federal law or are otherwise un-Constitutional.

But if the federal law would be unconstitutional if it interferes with a power directly granted to the states by the constitution.

The 2A does not grant the power to states.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The second amendment states that the right of the people to keep and bear arms "shall not be infringed".

The second amendment does not grant an absolute right, just like the first amendment does not.

Justice Scalia in Heller:

There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms. Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment ’s right of free speech was not, see, e.g., United States v. Williams, 553 U. S. ___ (2008). Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any purpose.

What does the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed mean? It sounds like it's an absolute right unless that right is taken away by due process.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Where is licensing in the Constitution? Please quote the relevant text.

It's reserved to the states in the 10th amendment.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Where is licensing in the Constitution? Please quote the relevant text.

It's reserved to the states in the 10th amendment.

Any second amendment issue was delegated to the feds

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Also if relevance, Henry Brown's treatment of the Bill of Rights in Robertson v. Baldwin

But we are also of opinion that even if the contract of a seaman could be considered within the letter of the Thirteenth Amendment, it is not, within its spirit, a case of involuntary servitude. The law is perfectly well settled that the first ten amendments to the Constitution, commonly known as the "Bill of Rights," were not intended to lay down any novel principles of government, but simply to embody certain guaranties and immunities which we had inherited from our English ancestors, and which had, from time immemorial, been subject to certain well recognized exceptions arising from the necessities of the case. In incorporating these principles into the fundamental law, there was no intention of disregarding the exceptions, which continued to be recognized as if they had been formally expressed. Thus, the freedom of speech and of the press (Art. I) does not permit the publication of libels, blasphemous or indecent articles, or other publications injurious to public morals or private reputation; the right of the people

Page 165 U. S. 282

to keep and bear arms (Art. II) is not infringed by laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons; the provision that no person shall be twice put in jeopardy (Art. V) does not prevent a second trial if upon the first trial the jury failed to agree or if the verdict was set aside upon the defendant's motion, United States v. Ball, 163 U. S. 662, 163 U. S. 627, nor does the provision of the same article that no one shall be a witness against himself impair his obligation to testify if a prosecution against him be barred by the lapse of time, a pardon, or by statutory enactment, Brown v. Walker, 161 U. S. 591, and cases cited. Nor does the provision that an accused person shall be confronted with the witnesses against him prevent the admission of dying declarations, or the depositions of witnesses who have died since the former trial.

I have a question.

Can I carry my gun brandished in those states that won't let me carry concealed as long as I have my gun liscense?

Its an honest question not a gotchya....if the answer is yes then I have no problem, my problem would be if I'm not allowed to excercise my constitutional right to posess firearms at all.

 

[The Rabbi]

I'm not aware of a state that allows open carry that also bars concealed carry. I know in VA at least at one time you didnt need a permit for open carry but did for concealed.
This doesnt affect that many states as most of them have reciprocity. It's just the idiot "may-issue" states that are persnickety and need to be shown their place.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I'm not aware of a state that allows open carry that also bars concealed carry. I know in VA at least at one time you didnt need a permit for open carry but did for concealed.
This doesnt affect that many states as most of them have reciprocity. It's just the idiot "may-issue" states that are persnickety and need to be shown their place.

I think in texas it is illegal to carry a firearm without it being brandished, if it wasn't texas I know its some state.

My state, if you brandish, you lose your right to possess

 

[The Rabbi]

I'm not aware of a state that allows open carry that also bars concealed carry. I know in VA at least at one time you didnt need a permit for open carry but did for concealed.
This doesnt affect that many states as most of them have reciprocity. It's just the idiot "may-issue" states that are persnickety and need to be shown their place.

I think in texas it is illegal to carry a firearm without it being brandished, if it wasn't texas I know its some state.

My state, if you brandish, you lose your right to possess

No, brandishing is illegal in every state of the union. Texas is a concealed carry state, although there are moves to change it. Some states allow open carry, which is not brandishing.

 

[JDzBrain]

Now that I have your attention, I'm not 100% sure it would be unconstitutional, but my first impression is that this would violate the state's rights to regulate licensing on its own. At the very least, it certainly is ideologically opposed to respecting state rights. I'm very perplexed by this. I support individual rights to carry a gun. But I think that it's over stepping for the federal government onto the states.

Sorry...nope. Wrong on all counts middle. This is EXACTLY how the founding fathers intended our government to work.

Article IV --- Section 1 --- Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

When a majority of the several states passes legislation...such as conceal carry...it is the job of the Congress to insure Full Faith and Credit is given the law by ALL states....as long as it is a constitutional law.

My problem with this is not what Congress is doing. It is that Conceal Carry laws themselves are unconstitutional. The RIGHT to keep and bare arms IS just that. A constitutionally protected right!

Carrying a concealed weapon should NOT require a government license. Licenses are PRIVILEGE licenses intended to support the cost of regulating that privilege. To keep and bare is a right, not a privilege that needs regulation.

Violations with firearms are criminal matters and we pay taxes to support law enforcement to regulate criminal activities.

The ONLY say a federal, state or local government should have in conceal carry is in if the people...through their elected representatives, decide to ban conceal carry in specific areas for the general welfare. That's IT!

Otherwise, every law abiding citizen HAS the right to carry a firearm...concealed or otherwise.

As Thomas Jefferson said, "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."

And since holsters for open carry of firearms were SELDOM seen in his day...you can BET that his was constantly concealed under his coat...even in the oval office! ;~)

 

[Liberty]

this wouldnt violate states rights at all since the right to self defense is a human right and should not be regulated in the first place.

 

[JDzBrain]

I think in texas it is illegal to carry a firearm without it being brandished, if it wasn't texas I know its some state.

My state, if you brandish, you lose your right to possess

There are about 30 states that are what is know as Open Carry states the last I checked PLY.

That just means that it is legal to openly carry a firearm on your person anywhere it is NOT posted that it is illegal to do so.

Here in Kentucky, if a business or township does not want you to walk in with your six shooter on your hip, they have to post signage in specific places informing you otherwise. Just like no smoking signs. That's all open carry means.

Heck, I've walked into the local police station with my 44 on my side before and nobody batted and eye at it. LOL

Oh, that and it is legal to carry a loaded firearm in your vehicle as long as you have to make a clear and defined motion to obtain it. Don't want to forget that one. ;~)

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I'm not aware of a state that allows open carry that also bars concealed carry. I know in VA at least at one time you didnt need a permit for open carry but did for concealed.
This doesnt affect that many states as most of them have reciprocity. It's just the idiot "may-issue" states that are persnickety and need to be shown their place.

I think in texas it is illegal to carry a firearm without it being brandished, if it wasn't texas I know its some state.

My state, if you brandish, you lose your right to possess

No, brandishing is illegal in every state of the union. Texas is a concealed carry state, although there are moves to change it. Some states allow open carry, which is not brandishing.

Utah Open Carry » Blog Archive » Legal to Brandish <----utah you can now i believe.

 

[Seawytch]

Teh Supreme Court ruled in McDonald that the 2A applies to states as well. Thus, just as states cannot deny 1A rights to citizens, as defined by the Federal government, so too they cannot deny 2A rights. Since the issue they are regulating is interstate travel, it may properly come under the interstate commerce clause, just as the civil rights era legislation came under that clause. There is no infringement here on states rights. Further, there is the full faith and credit issue: just as my driver's license is good so should my carry permit be good (and in TN they even have the same number).

Just as my marriage license is "good" in my state and should be in all states, right?

Is marriage in the Constitution? No, I didnt think so either.
Your "marriage license" is a sham, the product of politicians bending over to the gay lobby. Fortunately my home state bars such perversion.

You brought up the FF&C clause dipshit.

Fortunately, the law of your state will be found unconstitutional when marriage equality reaches the SCOTUS.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Sorry...nope. Wrong on all counts middle. This is EXACTLY how the founding fathers intended our government to work.

Article IV --- Section 1 --- Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

Sorry, nope, wrong on all counts. A permit being issued in one state does not have to be honored by other states. Each state can set it's own laws upon which to regulate concealed carry. The fact that one state allows someone to conceal carry does not mean that the next state must adopt the permit of the first. The full faith and credit clause does not come anywhere close to applying here. FFC deals with acts, records, and proceedings, such as court cases, graduating HS, or birth records. It does not deal with permissions granted to one state, which another state must also grant.

When a majority of the several states passes legislation...such as conceal carry...it is the job of the Congress to insure Full Faith and Credit is given the law by ALL states....as long as it is a constitutional law.

No, it's not. FFC has nothing to do with permissions granted by one state being honored by another state. My state is under no constitutional obligation to grant you the same permissions that your own state grants you. My state has requirements for concealed carry. Your state might not have the same requirements. Your state might grant you a conceal carry permit based on requirements that are less than that which my state has set for itself. The Congress telling my state it has to reduce its standards to that of another state violates the rights of my state, and I will wager the federal constitution as well.

My problem with this is not what Congress is doing. It is that Conceal Carry laws themselves are unconstitutional.

No, they are not. You clearly are uninformed on this matter.

The RIGHT to keep and bare arms IS just that. A constitutionally protected right!

The second amendment does not protect concealed carry. Even Scalia has written a recent opinion affirming this fact.

Carrying a concealed weapon should NOT require a government license. Licenses are PRIVILEGE licenses intended to support the cost of regulating that privilege. To keep and bare is a right, not a privilege that needs regulation.

The problem you're facing is that you are arguing that the 2nd amendment creates an absolute right, which isn't anymore true than the 1st amendment creates an absolute right. There are limits on free speech just like there are limits to the right to bear arms. The constitution does not protect a right to concealed carry.

The ONLY say a federal, state or local government should have in conceal carry is in if the people...through their elected representatives, decide to ban conceal carry in specific areas for the general welfare. That's IT!

That's what state laws are that regulate conceal carry. They are expressions of the people acting through their elected representatives to ban concealed carry under certain circumstances for the general welfare.

And since holsters for open carry of firearms were SELDOM seen in his day...you can BET that his was constantly concealed under his coat...even in the oval office! ;~)

That was before concealed carry laws were enacted by the people through their elected representatives.

 

[The Rabbi]

I think in texas it is illegal to carry a firearm without it being brandished, if it wasn't texas I know its some state.

My state, if you brandish, you lose your right to possess

No, brandishing is illegal in every state of the union. Texas is a concealed carry state, although there are moves to change it. Some states allow open carry, which is not brandishing.

Utah Open Carry » Blog Archive » Legal to Brandish <----utah you can now i believe.

Did you read the article? Utah redefined "brandishing" which is still a crime, to exclude people simply open carrying their weapons. It's a problem when police get a "man with a gun" call and it's just a private citizen open carrying and the cops dont like it so charge him with "brandishing" or "disturbing the peace" or "reckless endangerment" or whatever.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I think in texas it is illegal to carry a firearm without it being brandished, if it wasn't texas I know its some state.

My state, if you brandish, you lose your right to possess

No, brandishing is illegal in every state of the union. Texas is a concealed carry state, although there are moves to change it. Some states allow open carry, which is not brandishing.

Utah Open Carry » Blog Archive » Legal to Brandish <----utah you can now i believe.

To be charged with brandishing a gun is to go in public with the intent of terrorizing the public. In all states it would be illegal. but to pull your weapon which is also defined as brandishing in defense of yourself or others is not illegal in any state.