CDZ Hiroshima Debate: The End of the Age of Reason?

[2aguy]

Yeah....not so much.....anti nuke history......never trust it...

Articles Hiroshima Hoax Japan s Wllingness to Surrender Before the Bomb

From publication of his The New Left and the Origins of the Cold War Weapons for Victory: The Hiroshima Decision Fifty Years Laterwhich came out in the midst of the brawl over the National Air And Space Museum's Enola Gay exhibit, Maddox, has minced, sliced, and diced the conspiracy theories that have evolved into conventional wisdom in some quarters. In "The Greatest Hoax," he states:

A staple of Hiroshima Revisionism has been the contention that the government of Japan was prepared to surrender during the summer of 1945, with the sole proviso that its sacred emperor be retained. President Harry S. Truman and those around him knew this through intercepted Japanese diplomatic messages, the story goes, but refused to extend such an assurance because they wanted the war to continue until atomic bombs became available. The real purpose of using the bombs was not to defeat an already-defeated Japan, but to give the United States a club to use against the Soviet Union. Thus Truman purposely slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Japanese, not to mention untold thousands of other Asians and Allied servicemen who would perish as the war needlessly ground on, primarily to gain diplomatic advantage.

One might think that compelling substantiation would be necessary to support such a monstrous charge, but the revisionists have been unable to provide a single example from Japanese sources. What they have done instead amounts to a variation on the old shell game. They state in their own prose that the Japanese were trying to surrender without citing any evidence and, to show that Truman was aware of their efforts, cite his diary entry of July 18 [1945] referring to a "telegram from Jap Emperor asking for peace."

There it is! The smoking gun! But it is nothing of the sort. The message Truman cited did not refer to anything even remotely resembling surrender. It referred instead to the Japanese foreign office's attempt (under the suspicious eyes of the military) to persuade the Soviet Union to broker a negotiated peace that would have permitted the Japanese to retain their prewar empire and their imperial system (not just the emperor) intact. No American president could have accepted such a settlement, as it would have meant abandoning the United States' most basic war aims.

Maddox describes a revealing exchange he had with Bird and Sherwin in the December 2007 issue of Passport (newsletter of the Society for Historians of American Foreign Relations) where he accused them of resorting to "semantic jugglery" in falsely equating Truman's diary reference to "peace" with "surrender," and pointedly noted that they had failed to provide "even a wisp of evidence" from Japanese sources that Japan was trying to surrender. Sherwin and Bird retorted that Maddox has ignored a "huge body of distinguished scholarship" yet neglected to provide a single example of this material. Instead, they lamely held up a recent book by another author, Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the Surrender of Japan, as a shield to defend their own book, and castigated Maddox for ignoring Hasegawa.

Unfortunately for the Pulitzer winners, the Hasegawa book does not support their central contention. Said Maddox:

What Sherwin and Bird apparently did not know, or hoped their readers did not know, was that although Hasegawa agreed with revisionists on a number of issues, he explicitly rejected the early surrender thesis. Indeed, Hasegawa in no uncertain terms wrote that "Without the twin shocks of the atomic bombs and the Soviet entry into the war, the Japanese never would have surrendered in August."

Maddox relates that:

Undeterred by this fiasco and still unable to produce even a single document from Japanese sources, Bird has continued to peddle the fiction that "peace" meant the same thing as "surrender." In a mostly contemptuous review of Sir Max Hastings's Retribution: The Battle for Japan, 1944-45 (Washington Post Book World, April 20, 2008), Bird professed to be "appalled by the critical evidence left out."

 

[2aguy]

And more on the anti nuke revisionism...

Hiroshima and Nagasaki Did the US need to drop atomic bombs on Japan


But diplomatic messages intercepted by US intelligence, and only released to the public decades later from the 1970s onwards, revealed the overwhelming will of Japan's upper-echelons to carry on fighting to the end.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Source documents are your friend. The Atomic Bomb and the End of World War II A Collection of Primary Sources Source documents not speculation or false narrative or wishful thinking, documents that prove the Army ran the Government of Japan, that said Government never offered peace but rather a ceasefire with return to 1941 start lines That after 2 nukes the Army Government REFUSED to surrender and the Emperor intervened, that then the Army attempted a COUP to stop that surrender.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

...Post conflict is just as important and is by and large already decided prior to war...

?????

When exactly were terms of surrender discussed prior to the war?

If there were terms of surrender discussed prior to our war with the Japanese... What were they?

*****SMILE*****

 

[Kondor3]

We are trying to second-guess Pre-Atomic people 70 years after the fact using Post-Atomic eyes and knowledge and mindset, and at-peace rather than at war.

Different times... different circumstances... different ethics... different motivations... different values... different enemies... different commitment... different alternatives.

 

[Disir]

Source documents are your friend. The Atomic Bomb and the End of World War II A Collection of Primary Sources Source documents not speculation or false narrative or wishful thinking, documents that prove the Army ran the Government of Japan, that said Government never offered peace but rather a ceasefire with return to 1941 start lines That after 2 nukes the Army Government REFUSED to surrender and the Emperor intervened, that then the Army attempted a COUP to stop that surrender.

Source documents state that the the emperor had become involved prior to the nukes. Read the documents in your own link. Dulles is very, very slow on the uptake. Note your sanitized versions.Also note that they were aware that the concern was the emperor (even without power) was left.

Then read these:
Memoranda for the President Japanese Feelers Central Intelligence Agency

Lesson #5: Proportionality should be a guideline in war.

EM: The choice of incendiary bombs, where did that come from?

McNamara: I think the issue is not so much incendiary bombs. I think the issue is: in order to win a war should you kill 100,000 people in one night, by firebombing or any other way? LeMay's answer would be clearly "Yes."

"McNamara, do you mean to say that instead of killing 100,000, burning to death 100,000 Japanese civilians in that one night, we should have burned to death a lesser number or none? And then had our soldiers cross the beaches in Tokyo and been slaughtered in the tens of thousands? Is that what you're proposing? Is that moral? Is that wise?"

Why was it necessary to drop the nuclear bomb if LeMay was burning up Japan? And he went on from Tokyo to firebomb other cities. 58% of Yokohama. Yokohama is roughly the size of Cleveland. 58% of Cleveland destroyed. Tokyo is roughly the size of New York. 51% percent of New York destroyed. 99% of the equivalent of Chattanooga, which was Toyama. 40% of the equivalent of Los Angeles, which was Nagoya. This was all done before the dropping of the nuclear bomb, which by the way was dropped by LeMay's command.

Proportionality should be a guideline in war. Killing 50% to 90% of the people of 67 Japanese cities and then bombing them with two nuclear bombs is not proportional, in the minds of some people, to the objectives we were trying to achieve.

I don't fault Truman for dropping the nuclear bomb. The U.S.—Japanese War was one of the most brutal wars in all of human history ? kamikaze pilots, suicide, unbelievable. What one can criticize is that the human race prior to that time ? and today ? has not really grappled with what are, I'll call it, "the rules of war." Was there a rule then that said you shouldn't bomb, shouldn't kill, shouldn't burn to death 100,000 civilians in one night?

LeMay said, "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." And I think he's right. He, and I'd say I, were behaving as war criminals. LeMay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side had lost. But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?
Errol Morris Film

You have a need to feel morally superior in this move. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Who knew what, what did you know and when did you know it. It was known, the impact was known, it was unnecessary. Again. The mission was to demonstrate to the Soviet Union what we had.

We are talking about events that occurred 70 years ago. The key thing is to not do it again. That means that you take it upon yourself to remain objective.

 

[Disir]

And more on the anti nuke revisionism...

Hiroshima and Nagasaki Did the US need to drop atomic bombs on Japan


But diplomatic messages intercepted by US intelligence, and only released to the public decades later from the 1970s onwards, revealed the overwhelming will of Japan's upper-echelons to carry on fighting to the end.

You brought me an opinion piece.

 

[2aguy]

Yeah...and then there is this....


No Apologies For Hiroshima or Nagasaki - John Hawkins - Page 1


Let me say something that a lot of people think, but don’t want to say because we’re friendly with Japan now: Japan deserved to be nuked and it deserved it ten times over.

Japan was allied with the Nazis in a war of world conquest that would have exterminated freedom and democracy across the globe if they were successful. The Japanese deliberately starved and slaughtered millions of civilians, they raped children and pregnant women, they forced families to have sex with each other for the fun of it, they tortured and experimented on prisoners of war -- and then there was Pearl Harbor.

Today, we think of the Japanese as polite people who are good at making electronics, cars and monster movies, but during WWII they were just as fanatical and evil as ISIS or Al-Qaeda. Unfortunately, they also had the military, intelligence and organization to inflict their evil on a much wider swath of the planet. They needed to be stopped by any means necessary, that’s exactly what we did and the world, INCLUDING JAPAN, is a much better place for it.

************************************


When people moan about the use of nuclear weapons in Japan, what they’re really saying is that they’d rather hundreds of thousands of American families had grown up without husbands, fathers and sons than see us use nuclear weapons on a genocidal nation bent on world conquest.

Like most people who second guess the hard choices that are made in war, critics of nuking Japan insist that everything would have just magically worked out. Japan would have just surrendered and everything would have ended without bloodshed.

Of course, back in the real world, Japan was putting all of its resources into fending off an invasion and refused to surrender even AFTER the first nuclear weapon was dropped. After the second nuclear weapon hit Nagasaki, there was an attempted coup designed to prevent that nation’s leaders from giving in. Happily it failed, but it gives you a sense of how determined the Japanese were to keep fighting.

 

[2aguy]

Source documents are your friend. The Atomic Bomb and the End of World War II A Collection of Primary Sources Source documents not speculation or false narrative or wishful thinking, documents that prove the Army ran the Government of Japan, that said Government never offered peace but rather a ceasefire with return to 1941 start lines That after 2 nukes the Army Government REFUSED to surrender and the Emperor intervened, that then the Army attempted a COUP to stop that surrender.

Source documents state that the the emperor had become involved prior to the nukes. Read the documents in your own link. Dulles is very, very slow on the uptake. Note your sanitized versions.Also note that they were aware that the concern was the emperor (even without power) was left.

Then read these:
Memoranda for the President Japanese Feelers Central Intelligence Agency

Lesson #5: Proportionality should be a guideline in war.

EM: The choice of incendiary bombs, where did that come from?

McNamara: I think the issue is not so much incendiary bombs. I think the issue is: in order to win a war should you kill 100,000 people in one night, by firebombing or any other way? LeMay's answer would be clearly "Yes."

"McNamara, do you mean to say that instead of killing 100,000, burning to death 100,000 Japanese civilians in that one night, we should have burned to death a lesser number or none? And then had our soldiers cross the beaches in Tokyo and been slaughtered in the tens of thousands? Is that what you're proposing? Is that moral? Is that wise?"

Why was it necessary to drop the nuclear bomb if LeMay was burning up Japan? And he went on from Tokyo to firebomb other cities. 58% of Yokohama. Yokohama is roughly the size of Cleveland. 58% of Cleveland destroyed. Tokyo is roughly the size of New York. 51% percent of New York destroyed. 99% of the equivalent of Chattanooga, which was Toyama. 40% of the equivalent of Los Angeles, which was Nagoya. This was all done before the dropping of the nuclear bomb, which by the way was dropped by LeMay's command.

Proportionality should be a guideline in war. Killing 50% to 90% of the people of 67 Japanese cities and then bombing them with two nuclear bombs is not proportional, in the minds of some people, to the objectives we were trying to achieve.

I don't fault Truman for dropping the nuclear bomb. The U.S.—Japanese War was one of the most brutal wars in all of human history ? kamikaze pilots, suicide, unbelievable. What one can criticize is that the human race prior to that time ? and today ? has not really grappled with what are, I'll call it, "the rules of war." Was there a rule then that said you shouldn't bomb, shouldn't kill, shouldn't burn to death 100,000 civilians in one night?

LeMay said, "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." And I think he's right. He, and I'd say I, were behaving as war criminals. LeMay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side had lost. But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?
Errol Morris Film

You have a need to feel morally superior in this move. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Who knew what, what did you know and when did you know it. It was known, the impact was known, it was unnecessary. Again. The mission was to demonstrate to the Soviet Union what we had.

We are talking about events that occurred 70 years ago. The key thing is to not do it again. That means that you take it upon yourself to remain objective.

Could you highlight the actual quote...I am not sure who is saying what here.......thanks.

 

[2aguy]

Why was it necessary to drop the nuclear bomb if LeMay was burning up Japan? And he went on from Tokyo to firebomb other cities. 58% of Yokohama. Yokohama is roughly the size of Cleveland. 58% of Cleveland destroyed. Tokyo is roughly the size of New York. 51% percent of New York destroyed. 99% of the equivalent of Chattanooga, which was Toyama. 40% of the equivalent of Los Angeles, which was Nagoya. This was all done before the dropping of the nuclear bomb, which by the way was dropped by LeMay's command.

Proportionality should be a guideline in war. Killing 50% to 90% of the people of 67 Japanese cities and then bombing them with two nuclear bombs is not proportional, in the minds of some people, to the objectives we were trying to achieve.

Is this your opinion or from the links? If it is you....do you understand the nature of bombing in World War 2.....that we did not have precision bombs back then like we do now? That they had to drop lots of bombs in order to destroy targets and that as they did that they were under fire from the ground....and more than likely aircraft...as they were in Germany......so sitting today and talking about "proportionality" with no understanding of the weapons of the time is foolish. Read the accounts of the bombers, the number of bombers that were shot down and never made it back, and then the technology of the bombing back then....

People today have no sense of reality.....

 

[2aguy]

Who knew what, what did you know and when did you know it. It was known, the impact was known, it was unnecessary. Again. The mission was to demonstrate to the Soviet Union what we had.

Did you ever read the accounts of Okinawa, or the other island battles and the casualty counts of the Japanese soldiers.....how they refused to surrender and caused horrible casualties among our men.....?

 

[2aguy]

Here is a look at the air war against Japan...notice how inaccurate and dangerous the bombing was......to blame the allies for the destruction is foolish.

Air raids on Japan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


XXI Bomber Command's initial attacks against Japan were focused on the country's aircraft industry.[66]The first attack, codenamed Operation San Antonio I, was made against the Musashino aircraft plant in the outskirts of Tokyo on 24 November 1944. Only 24 of the 111 B-29s dispatched attacked the primary target, and the others bombed port facilities as well as industrial and urban areas. The Americans were intercepted by 125 Japanese fighters but only one B-29 was shot down.[1] This attack caused some damage to the aircraft plant and further reduced Japanese civilians' confidence in the country's air defenses.[67]

In response, the IJAAF and IJN stepped up their air attacks on B-29 bases in the Mariana Islands from 27 November; these raids continued until January 1945 and resulted in the destruction of 11 Superfortresses and damage to another 43 for the loss of probably 37 Japanese aircraft.[68] The IJA also began launching fire balloons against the United States during November. This campaign caused little damage and was abandoned in March 1945. By this time 9,000 balloons had been dispatched but only 285 were reported to have reached the contiguous United States.[69]

The next American raids on Japan were not successful. XXI Bomber Command attacked Tokyo three times between 27 November and 3 December; two of these raids were made against the Musashino aircraft plant while the other targeted an industrial area using M-69 incendiary cluster bombs, specifically developed to damage Japanese urban areas.[70] The aircraft plant attacked on 27 November and 3 December was only lightly damaged as high winds and clouds prevented accurate bombing. The incendiary raid conducted on the night of 29/30 November by 29 Superfortresses burnt out one tenth of a square mile, and was also judged to be unsuccessful by the Twentieth Air Force's headquarters.[71]


A B-29 falls in flames after a direct hit by an anti-aircraft shellover Japan


Four of XXI Bomber Command's next five raids were made against targets in Nagoya. The first two of these attacks on 13 and 18 December used precision bombing tactics, and damaged the city's aircraft plants.[72] The third raid was a daylight incendiary attack which was conducted after the Twentieth Air Force directed that 100 B-29s armed with M-69 bombs be dispatched against Nagoya to test the effectiveness of these weapons on a Japanese city. Hansell protested this order, as he believed that precision attacks were starting to produce results and moving to area bombardmentwould be counterproductive, but agreed to the operation after he was assured that it did not represent a general shift in tactics.[73] Despite the change in armament, the 22 December raid was planned as a precision attack on an aircraft factory using only 78 bombers, and bad weather meant that little damage was caused.[74]

XXI Bomber Command raided the Musashino aircraft plant in Tokyo again on 27 December, but did not damage the facility. On 3 January 1945, 97 B-29s were dispatched to conduct an area bombing raid on Nagoya. This attack started several fires, but these were quickly brought under control.[75]

So please....don't try to moralize from your computer today for those fighting the monsters in Japan with weapons in World War 2.......

 

[Disir]

Why was it necessary to drop the nuclear bomb if LeMay was burning up Japan? And he went on from Tokyo to firebomb other cities. 58% of Yokohama. Yokohama is roughly the size of Cleveland. 58% of Cleveland destroyed. Tokyo is roughly the size of New York. 51% percent of New York destroyed. 99% of the equivalent of Chattanooga, which was Toyama. 40% of the equivalent of Los Angeles, which was Nagoya. This was all done before the dropping of the nuclear bomb, which by the way was dropped by LeMay's command.

Proportionality should be a guideline in war. Killing 50% to 90% of the people of 67 Japanese cities and then bombing them with two nuclear bombs is not proportional, in the minds of some people, to the objectives we were trying to achieve.

Is this your opinion or from the links? If it is you....do you understand the nature of bombing in World War 2.....that we did not have precision bombs back then like we do now? That they had to drop lots of bombs in order to destroy targets and that as they did that they were under fire from the ground....and more than likely aircraft...as they were in Germany......so sitting today and talking about "proportionality" with no understanding of the weapons of the time is foolish. Read the accounts of the bombers, the number of bombers that were shot down and never made it back, and then the technology of the bombing back then....
People today have no sense of reality.....

That is Robert McNamara. Do you know who he was? Read the transcript.

 

[2aguy]

Why was it necessary to drop the nuclear bomb if LeMay was burning up Japan? And he went on from Tokyo to firebomb other cities. 58% of Yokohama. Yokohama is roughly the size of Cleveland. 58% of Cleveland destroyed. Tokyo is roughly the size of New York. 51% percent of New York destroyed. 99% of the equivalent of Chattanooga, which was Toyama. 40% of the equivalent of Los Angeles, which was Nagoya. This was all done before the dropping of the nuclear bomb, which by the way was dropped by LeMay's command.

And they still hadn't surrendered did they?


They dropped 2 bombs and the Japanese surrendered.....

 

[2aguy]

Why was it necessary to drop the nuclear bomb if LeMay was burning up Japan? And he went on from Tokyo to firebomb other cities. 58% of Yokohama. Yokohama is roughly the size of Cleveland. 58% of Cleveland destroyed. Tokyo is roughly the size of New York. 51% percent of New York destroyed. 99% of the equivalent of Chattanooga, which was Toyama. 40% of the equivalent of Los Angeles, which was Nagoya. This was all done before the dropping of the nuclear bomb, which by the way was dropped by LeMay's command.

Proportionality should be a guideline in war. Killing 50% to 90% of the people of 67 Japanese cities and then bombing them with two nuclear bombs is not proportional, in the minds of some people, to the objectives we were trying to achieve.

Is this your opinion or from the links? If it is you....do you understand the nature of bombing in World War 2.....that we did not have precision bombs back then like we do now? That they had to drop lots of bombs in order to destroy targets and that as they did that they were under fire from the ground....and more than likely aircraft...as they were in Germany......so sitting today and talking about "proportionality" with no understanding of the weapons of the time is foolish. Read the accounts of the bombers, the number of bombers that were shot down and never made it back, and then the technology of the bombing back then....
People today have no sense of reality.....

That is Robert McNamara. Do you know who he was? Read the transcript.

The entire post? Where does his statement end and your points begin....

 

[Luddly Neddite]

There was a good piece on Fresh Air this morning about this. Something that stuck out was how Hiroshima was selected. A commission was created composed of scientists and military personnel among others. Apparently some wanted to drop the bomb on Tokyo Bay while others suggested a remote military instillation to let the world know of it's existence. Anticipating the production of hydrogen bombs many of the scientists wanted to maximize the damage and casualties of the first bomb to "warn" the world of the dangers of these types of weapons.

There was never a reason to wipe out two cities full of civilians and cause truly unimaginable suffering for generations to come.

One bomb could have been dropped over water and had the same effect.

And if it did not have the effect we wanted, THEN we could have escalated.

As it is, we committed mass murder.

I suspect that it also gave us some sort of tacit permission to murder many millions more in the never-ending phony wars we have waged since them.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There was a good piece on Fresh Air this morning about this. Something that stuck out was how Hiroshima was selected. A commission was created composed of scientists and military personnel among others. Apparently some wanted to drop the bomb on Tokyo Bay while others suggested a remote military instillation to let the world know of it's existence. Anticipating the production of hydrogen bombs many of the scientists wanted to maximize the damage and casualties of the first bomb to "warn" the world of the dangers of these types of weapons.

There was never a reason to wipe out two cities full of civilians and cause truly unimaginable suffering for generations to come.

One bomb could have been dropped over water and had the same effect.

And if it did not have the effect we wanted, THEN we could have escalated.

As it is, we committed mass murder.

I suspect that it also gave us some sort of tacit permission to murder many millions more in the never-ending phony wars we have waged since them.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender xxxxxxxxx. ALL that was offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines, as in we give back all the territory we captured. AFTER 2 NUKES the Japanese STILL refused to surrender. It took the personal intercession of the Emperor and then the Army tried a coup to stop THAT.

 

[Disir]

Source documents are your friend. The Atomic Bomb and the End of World War II A Collection of Primary Sources Source documents not speculation or false narrative or wishful thinking, documents that prove the Army ran the Government of Japan, that said Government never offered peace but rather a ceasefire with return to 1941 start lines That after 2 nukes the Army Government REFUSED to surrender and the Emperor intervened, that then the Army attempted a COUP to stop that surrender.

Source documents state that the the emperor had become involved prior to the nukes. Read the documents in your own link. Dulles is very, very slow on the uptake. Note your sanitized versions.Also note that they were aware that the concern was the emperor (even without power) was left.

Then read these:
Memoranda for the President Japanese Feelers Central Intelligence Agency

Lesson #5: Proportionality should be a guideline in war.

EM: The choice of incendiary bombs, where did that come from?

McNamara: I think the issue is not so much incendiary bombs. I think the issue is: in order to win a war should you kill 100,000 people in one night, by firebombing or any other way? LeMay's answer would be clearly "Yes."

"McNamara, do you mean to say that instead of killing 100,000, burning to death 100,000 Japanese civilians in that one night, we should have burned to death a lesser number or none? And then had our soldiers cross the beaches in Tokyo and been slaughtered in the tens of thousands? Is that what you're proposing? Is that moral? Is that wise?"

Why was it necessary to drop the nuclear bomb if LeMay was burning up Japan? And he went on from Tokyo to firebomb other cities. 58% of Yokohama. Yokohama is roughly the size of Cleveland. 58% of Cleveland destroyed. Tokyo is roughly the size of New York. 51% percent of New York destroyed. 99% of the equivalent of Chattanooga, which was Toyama. 40% of the equivalent of Los Angeles, which was Nagoya. This was all done before the dropping of the nuclear bomb, which by the way was dropped by LeMay's command.

Proportionality should be a guideline in war. Killing 50% to 90% of the people of 67 Japanese cities and then bombing them with two nuclear bombs is not proportional, in the minds of some people, to the objectives we were trying to achieve.

I don't fault Truman for dropping the nuclear bomb. The U.S.—Japanese War was one of the most brutal wars in all of human history ? kamikaze pilots, suicide, unbelievable. What one can criticize is that the human race prior to that time ? and today ? has not really grappled with what are, I'll call it, "the rules of war." Was there a rule then that said you shouldn't bomb, shouldn't kill, shouldn't burn to death 100,000 civilians in one night?

LeMay said, "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." And I think he's right. He, and I'd say I, were behaving as war criminals. LeMay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side had lost. But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?
Errol Morris Film

You have a need to feel morally superior in this move. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Who knew what, what did you know and when did you know it. It was known, the impact was known, it was unnecessary. Again. The mission was to demonstrate to the Soviet Union what we had.

We are talking about events that occurred 70 years ago. The key thing is to not do it again. That means that you take it upon yourself to remain objective.

Could you highlight the actual quote...I am not sure who is saying what here.......thanks.

Do you see where it says Errol Morris Film? That's the end of the quote. It is from a documentary called the Fog of War. Do you know who Robert McNamara was?

 

[Disir]

There was a good piece on Fresh Air this morning about this. Something that stuck out was how Hiroshima was selected. A commission was created composed of scientists and military personnel among others. Apparently some wanted to drop the bomb on Tokyo Bay while others suggested a remote military instillation to let the world know of it's existence. Anticipating the production of hydrogen bombs many of the scientists wanted to maximize the damage and casualties of the first bomb to "warn" the world of the dangers of these types of weapons.

There was never a reason to wipe out two cities full of civilians and cause truly unimaginable suffering for generations to come.

One bomb could have been dropped over water and had the same effect.

And if it did not have the effect we wanted, THEN we could have escalated.

As it is, we committed mass murder.

I suspect that it also gave us some sort of tacit permission to murder many millions more in the never-ending phony wars we have waged since them.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender you idiot. ALL that was offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines, as in we give back all the territory we captured. AFTER 2 NUKES the Japanese STILL refused to surrender. It took the personal intercession of the Emperor and then the Army tried a coup to stop THAT.

THIS ^^^^ is why I don't bother to post in the CDZ.

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

 

[Disir]

Here is a look at the air war against Japan...notice how inaccurate and dangerous the bombing was......to blame the allies for the destruction is foolish.

Air raids on Japan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


XXI Bomber Command's initial attacks against Japan were focused on the country's aircraft industry.[66]The first attack, codenamed Operation San Antonio I, was made against the Musashino aircraft plant in the outskirts of Tokyo on 24 November 1944. Only 24 of the 111 B-29s dispatched attacked the primary target, and the others bombed port facilities as well as industrial and urban areas. The Americans were intercepted by 125 Japanese fighters but only one B-29 was shot down.[1] This attack caused some damage to the aircraft plant and further reduced Japanese civilians' confidence in the country's air defenses.[67]

In response, the IJAAF and IJN stepped up their air attacks on B-29 bases in the Mariana Islands from 27 November; these raids continued until January 1945 and resulted in the destruction of 11 Superfortresses and damage to another 43 for the loss of probably 37 Japanese aircraft.[68] The IJA also began launching fire balloons against the United States during November. This campaign caused little damage and was abandoned in March 1945. By this time 9,000 balloons had been dispatched but only 285 were reported to have reached the contiguous United States.[69]

The next American raids on Japan were not successful. XXI Bomber Command attacked Tokyo three times between 27 November and 3 December; two of these raids were made against the Musashino aircraft plant while the other targeted an industrial area using M-69 incendiary cluster bombs, specifically developed to damage Japanese urban areas.[70] The aircraft plant attacked on 27 November and 3 December was only lightly damaged as high winds and clouds prevented accurate bombing. The incendiary raid conducted on the night of 29/30 November by 29 Superfortresses burnt out one tenth of a square mile, and was also judged to be unsuccessful by the Twentieth Air Force's headquarters.[71]


A B-29 falls in flames after a direct hit by an anti-aircraft shellover Japan


Four of XXI Bomber Command's next five raids were made against targets in Nagoya. The first two of these attacks on 13 and 18 December used precision bombing tactics, and damaged the city's aircraft plants.[72] The third raid was a daylight incendiary attack which was conducted after the Twentieth Air Force directed that 100 B-29s armed with M-69 bombs be dispatched against Nagoya to test the effectiveness of these weapons on a Japanese city. Hansell protested this order, as he believed that precision attacks were starting to produce results and moving to area bombardmentwould be counterproductive, but agreed to the operation after he was assured that it did not represent a general shift in tactics.[73] Despite the change in armament, the 22 December raid was planned as a precision attack on an aircraft factory using only 78 bombers, and bad weather meant that little damage was caused.[74]

XXI Bomber Command raided the Musashino aircraft plant in Tokyo again on 27 December, but did not damage the facility. On 3 January 1945, 97 B-29s were dispatched to conduct an area bombing raid on Nagoya. This attack started several fires, but these were quickly brought under control.[75]

So please....don't try to moralize from your computer today for those fighting the monsters in Japan with weapons in World War 2.......

Blame the allies for what?