High Speed Chases Ending in Death - Whose Fault Is It, Really?

[MikeK]

[...]
So it has to be life or death?? So next time one of us gets pulled over for speeding or rolling through a stop sign, or a cop tries to pull us over, we just jump on the gas and speed away?

[...]

Would you do that if you were pulled over for speeding?

If not, why not?

 

[Biggles]

[...]
So it has to be life or death?? So next time one of us gets pulled over for speeding or rolling through a stop sign, or a cop tries to pull us over, we just jump on the gas and speed away?

[...]

Would you do that if you were pulled over for speeding?

If not, why not?

No I would not; I am not an idiot or a criminal. But that has nothing to do with the point. The point is that George believes it has to be life or death, which I say is ridiculous. If that were the norm, then there would be people fleeing all the time. there are may idiots and criminals who'd flee rather than be caught or given a ticket.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

No I would not; I am not an idiot or a criminal. But that has nothing to do with the point. The point is that George believes it has to be life or death, which I say is ridiculous. If that were the norm, then there would be people fleeing all the time. there are may idiots and criminals who'd flee rather than be caught or given a ticket.

Good. I believe your attitude is typical and I'm sure any police officer will tell you the exceptions to it are rare. And of those exceptions, what percentage do you believe would justify the extreme risk involved in conducting a high-speed pursuit?

As suggested in an earlier message, if the penalty for evading a police stop were significantly greater than the penalty for DUI, or possession of a personal-use quantity of an illegal drug, I'm sure the percentage of exceptions would be even further reduced.

Re: George's reference to life or death situations; it's important to realize that any high-speed pursuit is a life or death situation which should not be engaged in without a known and substantial justification. Again I refer to the COPS tv documentary as just one source of awareness that the apparent majority of high-speed pursuits do not justify the risk involved. Those who are familiar with this tv show have seen that the outcome of these extremely dangerous street and highway pursuits rarely justify the risk and often result in death, injury and/or substantial property damage.

 

[George Costanza]

No I would not; I am not an idiot or a criminal. But that has nothing to do with the point. The point is that George believes it has to be life or death, which I say is ridiculous. If that were the norm, then there would be people fleeing all the time. there are may idiots and criminals who'd flee rather than be caught or given a ticket.

Is it your position that whenever someone takes off on a cop, regardless of the reason, regardless of the facts known to the officer at the time, the officer should chase the guy until he catches him?

If so, how do you respond to someone who says: I don't think the risk of death or injury to an innocent person justifies a high speed chase regardless of the reason for it.

Cop spots a car with expired tags. He red lights it. Car takes off. Car is not stolen. Driver of the car was driving in a perfectly safe manner prior to the red light coming on. No warrants out for anyone connected to the car. The SOLE issue is expired tags. And the driver just takes off. Five miles down the road, the driver of the car plows into another car and kills all of the occupants.

That OK? Is that justified by society's interest in not allowing people to run from the cops?

 

[ConHog]

No I would not; I am not an idiot or a criminal. But that has nothing to do with the point. The point is that George believes it has to be life or death, which I say is ridiculous. If that were the norm, then there would be people fleeing all the time. there are may idiots and criminals who'd flee rather than be caught or given a ticket.

Is it your position that whenever someone takes off on a cop, regardless of the reason, regardless of the facts known to the officer at the time, the officer should chase the guy until he catches him?

If so, how do you respond to someone who says: I don't think the risk of death or injury to an innocent person justifies a high speed chase regardless of the reason for it.

Cop spots a car with expired tags. He red lights it. Car takes off. Car is not stolen. Driver of the car was driving in a perfectly safe manner prior to the red light coming on. No warrants out for anyone connected to the car. The SOLE issue is expired tags. And the driver just takes off. Five miles down the road, the driver of the car plows into another car and kills all of the occupants.

That OK? Is that justified by society's interest in not allowing people to run from the cops?

Ok, how many innocent people run from the cops? I'm not talking about innocent of a traffic violation. I'm saying that most of those who run due so because they also have drugs in the vehicle, or a warrant, or a body in the trunk, etc etc. Sure once in awhile some bozo just gets scared and bolts instead of taking the $200 speeding ticket or what have you, BUT most of the time the runners run for other reasons. How is a cop to know UNLESS he pulls that car over? Now, I'm not a big fan of high speed chases, and know without a doubt that some LEO just like the adrenaline rush, but there are legitimate reasons for them as well.

 

[chanel]

Are there additional penalties if a guy just runs off? Maybe instead of chasing them they can add mandatory jail tine or something - even for something minor. That might be a better deterrent in preventing these dangerous situations. At least when they know the plate number or the person's name.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

George how many shots should a perp be allowed to fire at the po-leece before they can return fire, assuming most of the shots are misses?

 

[AllieBaba]

Unfortunately, it is not as easy as most of you folks would have it. On this particular issue, I think you have to step back and take a look at the Big Picture. Is stopping someone whose only crime has been speeding or some other type of relatively minor traffic offense, worth risking the lives of innocent civilians?

To me, there is no question. It isn't. As a citizen, I would MUCH prefer that cops not pursue speeders who don't yield than to have to worry about being killed as a consequence of their doing so.

It is so easy to say: "Perp's fault! Run from the cops, too bad - let the chips fall where they may and devil take the hindmost. We can't have people running from our police."

Yes, we can. And for damn good reason in many cases.

Let me guess - you have a good friend who was recently wrongly asked to pull over and who led the cops on a high speed chase, resulting in a death that was absolutely NOT your friend's fault.

 

[AllieBaba]

So G.C.'s take (surpirse surpirse) on this...cops bad, criminals good.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

GC: "Some of my best friends lead cops on high speed chases..."

I blame the media for popularizing the high speed chase and turning into a potential winning lottery ticket when the speed gets caught and gets a well deserved beat down.

If you're rushing your friend to the hospital because he's bleeding out in the back seat, let the cops know and they'll give you an escort. Anything else is pretty much total bullshit

 

[AllieBaba]

Are there additional penalties if a guy just runs off? Maybe instead of chasing them they can add mandatory jail tine or something - even for something minor. That might be a better deterrent in preventing these dangerous situations. At least when they know the plate number or the person's name.

Yes, there are still additional penalties. From assault with a dealy weapon, eluding, resistance to arrest, and so on and so forth.

 

[MikeK]

Are there additional penalties if a guy just runs off? Maybe instead of chasing them they can add mandatory jail tine or something - even for something minor. That might be a better deterrent in preventing these dangerous situations. At least when they know the plate number or the person's name.

I agree. And I'm sure that would cause most of those inclined to run to think twice about it.

 

[uscitizen]

Yep that liscence plate guarantees that the owner is the driver that is running.

 

[Immanuel]

Yep that liscence plate guarantees that the owner is the driver that is running.

No it doesn't but typically they know who was.

Safety should be (and is) first and foremost on the minds of the chaser.

Immie

 

[MikeK]

[...]
Ok, how many innocent people run from the cops? [...]

Innocent is a relative term in the example of traffic stops.

Most who are stopped are guilty of something, if only a traffic violation. But if you'll watch the tv documentary, COPS, you'll find there usually is at least one or two traffic stops in every segment. I've watched quite a few of these documentaries and I don't recall ever seeing one of the traffic stops, including those that end up in a high-speed chase, turn up a truly serious (malum in se) offense. Usually the stop or the chase turns up some personal-use drug possession, an occasional gun, a DUI, or some other minor, (malum prohibitum) offense that really isn't worth the time it takes to process.

I have watched segments in which as many as five police cars are engaged in a high-speed chase for ten or more miles when the subject car crashes, usually into parked cars or other valuable property, the driver bails out and runs and when apprehended after a fence-jumping foot-chase he turns out to be nothing more than somone with a warrant or in possession of some crack paraphernalia, a DUI, etc. Meanwhile the lives and property of innocent citizens have been placed in serious jeopardy by this wholly unnecessary, testosterone-driven cowboy adventure.

 

[MikeK]

Yep that liscence plate guarantees that the owner is the driver that is running.

No it doesn't but typically they know who was.

[...]
Immie

Exactly!

 

[ConHog]

[...]
Ok, how many innocent people run from the cops? [...]

Innocent is a relative term in the example of traffic stops.

Most who are stopped are guilty of something, if only a traffic violation. But if you'll watch the tv documentary, COPS, you'll find there usually is at least one or two traffic stops in every segment. I've watched quite a few of these documentaries and I don't recall ever seeing one of the traffic stops, including those that end up in a high-speed chase, turn up a truly serious (malum in se) offense. Usually the stop or the chase turns up some personal-use drug possession, an occasional gun, a DUI, or some other minor, (malum prohibitum) offense that really isn't worth the time it takes to process.

I have watched segments in which as many as five police cars are engaged in a high-speed chase for ten or more miles when the subject car crashes, usually into parked cars or other valuable property, the driver bails out and runs and when apprehended after a fence-jumping foot-chase he turns out to be nothing more than somone with a warrant or in possession of some crack paraphernalia, a DUI, etc. Meanwhile the lives and property of innocent citizens have been placed in serious jeopardy by this wholly unnecessary, testosterone-driven cowboy adventure.

So, you're of the opinion that no ne should ever be pursued?

 

[Samson]

So, you're of the opinion that no ne should ever be pursued?

Not at all.

See, your problem is you aren't aware of the Crystal Balls that have been issued to all Police Departments:

Only people who have can damage the public welfare more if they are chased should be chased.

 

[George Costanza]

Ok, how many innocent people run from the cops? I'm not talking about innocent of a traffic violation. I'm saying that most of those who run due so because they also have drugs in the vehicle, or a warrant, or a body in the trunk, etc etc. Sure once in awhile some bozo just gets scared and bolts instead of taking the $200 speeding ticket or what have you, BUT most of the time the runners run for other reasons. How is a cop to know UNLESS he pulls that car over? Now, I'm not a big fan of high speed chases, and know without a doubt that some LEO just like the adrenaline rush, but there are legitimate reasons for them as well.

So the guy runs because he has some meth in his glove box, or even three kilos of cocaine in his trunk. So WHAT? Is something like that worth the life of an innocent person who is killed because of a high speed chase? I don't think it is.

 

[George Costanza]

So G.C.'s take (surpirse surpirse) on this...cops bad, criminals good.

No - innocent civilians put at extreme risk of injury or death due to high speed chases for no legitimate reason: good. High speed chases for no legitimate reason: bad.