Henotheism and Atheism

[Blues Man]

Defined as uncaring or indifferent to the possibility that gods may or may not exist.

Then the question to explore is why be apathetic whether God does or does not exist?

Because I don not believe it matters.

I would not change the way I live if it was proven that a god snapped his fingers and created the universe. We showed up after the universe began and we'll be extinct before the universe ends. So the only thing that matters as far as I'm concerned is what we do in the short time we are alive.

Purpose matters.

I define my purpose not you and not some god that may or may not exist.

First things first. Does purpose matter?

My purpose that I have chosen to guide my life matters to me. I really don't care if it matters to you.

First things first. Does purpose matter? Is having a purpose important?

We can get into your purpose later.

Yeah you think the universe has a purpose. I don't.

You still haven't answered the question. Does purpose matter? Is having a purpose important? Because I don't see how purpose can't matter. I don't see how purpose isn't important. You want to argue about whether there is purpose without first acknowledging that having a purpose - as a rule - can be a good thing.

Existence can be defined - but not limited to - as everything that has occurred since the beginning of space and time. The purpose of existence is to produce beings that know and create. You can know that by examining how space and time evolved; by studying the physical, biological and moral laws of nature.

I already told you my purpose matters to me.

It doesn't matter to the universe or to anyone else.

I don't know how you got to purpose from my statement that I don't think it matters if any gods exist or not unless you think gods give you purpose.

And I still don't believe the universe has a purpose. You are saying what you think the purpose of the universe is and that's your opinion.

The universe screams purpose. We live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

I disagree.

The universe is just a place where things can happen. We are the result of trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power of random events. We are insignificant compared to the entirety of the universe.

Humans have a tendency to project their their perspective onto anything and everything.

If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.

Some people find that unsettling.

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

 

[Blues Man]

I look at the world and its offerings as a supermarket. I take what I need and I leave the rest.

That is not being indifferent. It is choosing what you want and not being forced to choose something that is also available. For example, I do not pass by the canned peas without putting any in my cart because I am indifferent to them. They do not go into my cart because I loathe them.

Where I can relate is that there is a lot in any store that I have no use for. I am not indifferent to these things, I just can't use them. If you have no use for God, that is different from being indifferent. You might say it is a distinction without a difference, but I will beg to differ. For example, I do not drink coffee so I go by coffee pots and espresso machines without a second thought. The store should carry them because I am not the one and only consumer. If a health group began picketing the store solely because it was against coffee and coffee related items, I would be on the side of the store, even though those are items I have no use for.

If you say that along the same lines you have no use for God, I can accept that more readily than you saying you are indifferent. And, of course, it is solely your own heart that can judge indifference versus no use for.

If I have a lack of interest or concern or no particular like or dislike for something I am indifferent.

I don't see it as a creeping negativity that will color my view of all things.

I care very deeply about many things and I don't see my lack of interest or concern with the existence of gods as a threat to that caring.

 

[ding]

Defined as uncaring or indifferent to the possibility that gods may or may not exist.

Then the question to explore is why be apathetic whether God does or does not exist?

Because I don not believe it matters.

I would not change the way I live if it was proven that a god snapped his fingers and created the universe. We showed up after the universe began and we'll be extinct before the universe ends. So the only thing that matters as far as I'm concerned is what we do in the short time we are alive.

Purpose matters.

I define my purpose not you and not some god that may or may not exist.

First things first. Does purpose matter?

My purpose that I have chosen to guide my life matters to me. I really don't care if it matters to you.

First things first. Does purpose matter? Is having a purpose important?

We can get into your purpose later.

Yeah you think the universe has a purpose. I don't.

You still haven't answered the question. Does purpose matter? Is having a purpose important? Because I don't see how purpose can't matter. I don't see how purpose isn't important. You want to argue about whether there is purpose without first acknowledging that having a purpose - as a rule - can be a good thing.

Existence can be defined - but not limited to - as everything that has occurred since the beginning of space and time. The purpose of existence is to produce beings that know and create. You can know that by examining how space and time evolved; by studying the physical, biological and moral laws of nature.

I already told you my purpose matters to me.

It doesn't matter to the universe or to anyone else.

I don't know how you got to purpose from my statement that I don't think it matters if any gods exist or not unless you think gods give you purpose.

And I still don't believe the universe has a purpose. You are saying what you think the purpose of the universe is and that's your opinion.

The universe screams purpose. We live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

I disagree.

The universe is just a place where things can happen. We are the result of trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power of random events. We are insignificant compared to the entirety of the universe.

Humans have a tendency to project their their perspective onto anything and everything.

If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.

Some people find that unsettling.

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

I couldn't be happier for you to disagree. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose. Which has already been explained to you in great detail.

 

[ding]

The universe is just a place where things can happen. We are the result of trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power of random events. We are insignificant compared to the entirety of the universe.

The evolution of space and time has proceeded in a very logical and sequential fashion. Every cause had an effect and every effect had a cause.

Do you or don't you agree?

 

[ding]

Humans have a tendency to project their their perspective onto anything and everything.

Yes, that is called subjectivity. Subjectivity leads to idealistic or notional ideas of the world or the state of things. This is called perception of reality. Reality is seeing the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. To see the world or the state of things as they actually exist one must eliminate bias to be objective.

Do you agree?

 

[ding]

If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.

The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. If a constant presence of mind intentionally created the universe, then it was created for a purpose. If the universe was not created by a constant presence of mind then it would have not been intentionally created and it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do.

Do you agree?

 

[ding]

Some people find that unsettling.

Not for people who believe everything works for good. Those people have peace.

 

[ding]

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

When you can provide a perception of what you have looked for that isn't a fairy tale, we can talk.

English, please.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

We're quibbling over semantics

Indeed. But this is the place for this quibble.

 

[Blues Man]

Defined as uncaring or indifferent to the possibility that gods may or may not exist.

Then the question to explore is why be apathetic whether God does or does not exist?

Because I don not believe it matters.

I would not change the way I live if it was proven that a god snapped his fingers and created the universe. We showed up after the universe began and we'll be extinct before the universe ends. So the only thing that matters as far as I'm concerned is what we do in the short time we are alive.

Purpose matters.

I define my purpose not you and not some god that may or may not exist.

First things first. Does purpose matter?

My purpose that I have chosen to guide my life matters to me. I really don't care if it matters to you.

First things first. Does purpose matter? Is having a purpose important?

We can get into your purpose later.

Yeah you think the universe has a purpose. I don't.

You still haven't answered the question. Does purpose matter? Is having a purpose important? Because I don't see how purpose can't matter. I don't see how purpose isn't important. You want to argue about whether there is purpose without first acknowledging that having a purpose - as a rule - can be a good thing.

Existence can be defined - but not limited to - as everything that has occurred since the beginning of space and time. The purpose of existence is to produce beings that know and create. You can know that by examining how space and time evolved; by studying the physical, biological and moral laws of nature.

I already told you my purpose matters to me.

It doesn't matter to the universe or to anyone else.

I don't know how you got to purpose from my statement that I don't think it matters if any gods exist or not unless you think gods give you purpose.

And I still don't believe the universe has a purpose. You are saying what you think the purpose of the universe is and that's your opinion.

The universe screams purpose. We live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

I disagree.

The universe is just a place where things can happen. We are the result of trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power of random events. We are insignificant compared to the entirety of the universe.

Humans have a tendency to project their their perspective onto anything and everything.

If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.

Some people find that unsettling.

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

I couldn't be happier for you to disagree. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose. Which has already been explained to you in great detail.

No they don't.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Can a person be both atheistic and henotheistic simultaneously? Don’t worry if you have to look up henotheism. I had to look it up too.

No, it's impossible.

An atheist is a person who believes there is no God. You can't believe there is no God and believe there is a God.

A non-religious person who is open to things that might appear in the future, but doesn't believe in anything at all.

Though I guess atheists are believers... they believe just in the negative rather than positive.

 

[Blues Man]

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.

And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.

So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.

How did we get here and what happens after we die.

We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die.

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.

And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.

So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.

How did we get here and what happens after we die.

We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die. So we will continue to speculate the existence of creators and afterlives until we can actually understand them. And since I believe we may be incapable of understanding them due to the physical limitations of our brains then we will always speculate about the mystical as a cause for the physical world we do not understand

 

[Blues Man]

The universe is just a place where things can happen. We are the result of trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power of random events. We are insignificant compared to the entirety of the universe.

The evolution of space and time has proceeded in a very logical and sequential fashion. Every cause had an effect and every effect had a cause.

Do you or don't you agree?

And some of those causes are random events. Liken it to the throwing of trillions of dice each having multiple sides.

The throwing of the dice is a cause but the result of that known cause is an astronomical number of random conditions. Those random conditions can then become causes of untold more random conditions.

There is no predictable sequence

 

[Blues Man]

If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.

The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. If a constant presence of mind intentionally created the universe, then it was created for a purpose. If the universe was not created by a constant presence of mind then it would have not been intentionally created and it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do.

Do you agree?

So you think that your purpose is defined by something outside yourself?

You are operating on a big if and instead of regarding that if as a hypothetical you are operating as if that if then hypothetical condition is proven fact.

Purpose is not defined by the creator of anything. It is defined by the user.

The inventor of a wrench can try to tell me that the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a particular size nut. But if I use that wrench to strike a person in self defense I have defined the purpose of the wrench in that instant to be a weapon.

So purpose is subjective and defined by the person using a tool not the person who created the tool.

And I see nothing contradictory in believing the universe was not created for a purpose. The universe simply is what it is.

 

[Meriweather]

Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.

God hasn't been about the physical world, but how to live in a physical world.

 

[ding]

Defined as uncaring or indifferent to the possibility that gods may or may not exist.

Then the question to explore is why be apathetic whether God does or does not exist?

Because I don not believe it matters.

I would not change the way I live if it was proven that a god snapped his fingers and created the universe. We showed up after the universe began and we'll be extinct before the universe ends. So the only thing that matters as far as I'm concerned is what we do in the short time we are alive.

Purpose matters.

I define my purpose not you and not some god that may or may not exist.

First things first. Does purpose matter?

My purpose that I have chosen to guide my life matters to me. I really don't care if it matters to you.

First things first. Does purpose matter? Is having a purpose important?

We can get into your purpose later.

Yeah you think the universe has a purpose. I don't.

You still haven't answered the question. Does purpose matter? Is having a purpose important? Because I don't see how purpose can't matter. I don't see how purpose isn't important. You want to argue about whether there is purpose without first acknowledging that having a purpose - as a rule - can be a good thing.

Existence can be defined - but not limited to - as everything that has occurred since the beginning of space and time. The purpose of existence is to produce beings that know and create. You can know that by examining how space and time evolved; by studying the physical, biological and moral laws of nature.

I already told you my purpose matters to me.

It doesn't matter to the universe or to anyone else.

I don't know how you got to purpose from my statement that I don't think it matters if any gods exist or not unless you think gods give you purpose.

And I still don't believe the universe has a purpose. You are saying what you think the purpose of the universe is and that's your opinion.

The universe screams purpose. We live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

I disagree.

The universe is just a place where things can happen. We are the result of trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power of random events. We are insignificant compared to the entirety of the universe.

Humans have a tendency to project their their perspective onto anything and everything.

If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.

Some people find that unsettling.

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

I couldn't be happier for you to disagree. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose. Which has already been explained to you in great detail.

No they don't.

Sure they do. A case for spirit creating the material world can be made by examining the evidence that we have at our disposal. It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

We have good reason to believe that we find ourselves in a universe permeated with life, in which life arises inevitably, given enough time, wherever the conditions exist that make it possible. Yet were any one of a number of the physical properties of our universe otherwise - some of them basic, others seemingly trivial, almost accidental - that life, which seems now to be so prevalent, would become impossible, here or anywhere. It takes no great imagination to conceive of other possible universes, each stable and workable in itself, yet lifeless. How is it that, with so many other apparent options, we are in a universe that possesses just that peculiar nexus of properties that breeds beings that know and create.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

All we have done so far is to make a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

Man believes in a universal right and wrong. If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

 

[ding]

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.

And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.

So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.

How did we get here and what happens after we die.

We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die.

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.

And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.

So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.

How did we get here and what happens after we die.

We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die. So we will continue to speculate the existence of creators and afterlives until we can actually understand them. And since I believe we may be incapable of understanding them due to the physical limitations of our brains then we will always speculate about the mystical as a cause for the physical world we do not understand

And yet natural selection confirms that belief in God is functionally superior to materialism.

 

[ding]

The universe is just a place where things can happen. We are the result of trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power of random events. We are insignificant compared to the entirety of the universe.

The evolution of space and time has proceeded in a very logical and sequential fashion. Every cause had an effect and every effect had a cause.

Do you or don't you agree?

And some of those causes are random events. Liken it to the throwing of trillions of dice each having multiple sides.

The throwing of the dice is a cause but the result of that known cause is an astronomical number of random conditions. Those random conditions can then become causes of untold more random conditions.

There is no predictable sequence

The evolution of space and time say otherwise. So does the theory of evolution.

 

[ding]

If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.

The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. If a constant presence of mind intentionally created the universe, then it was created for a purpose. If the universe was not created by a constant presence of mind then it would have not been intentionally created and it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do.

Do you agree?

So you think that your purpose is defined by something outside yourself?

You are operating on a big if and instead of regarding that if as a hypothetical you are operating as if that if then hypothetical condition is proven fact.

Purpose is not defined by the creator of anything. It is defined by the user.

The inventor of a wrench can try to tell me that the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a particular size nut. But if I use that wrench to strike a person in self defense I have defined the purpose of the wrench in that instant to be a weapon.

So purpose is subjective and defined by the person using a tool not the person who created the tool.

And I see nothing contradictory in believing the universe was not created for a purpose. The universe simply is what it is.

Purpose is defined by what something was made for. We were made to know and to create.

A hammer was made to hammer. A lawn mower was made to cut grass. The universe was made to create intelligence.