Healthcare vs Spam

[overland]

I can't wait for somebody to tell me that talking about universal health care is spamming. It has happened to me at another forum. But like it or not, "spam" or not, the U.S. should have single payer universal health care. Just like most other (if not all) developed countries have. Even mexico has it. Possibly it may not be very good there. But the mexicans are famous for spending as little as possible on their poor. They just herd them north of the border and let the gringos worry about it.

 

[depotoo]

Yeah, let's wait months for surgery, etc. no.

Healthcare wait times hit 20 weeks in 2016: report

 

[overland]

Yeah, let's wait months for surgery, etc. no.

Healthcare wait times hit 20 weeks in 2016: report

Ah! Some anti free healthcare BS! How long do Americans have to wait for surgery now. Tell me. How many doctors would cease to exist here if universal health care came into being. I can tell you. Not a single one! So "if" people had to wait longer for surgeries, it wouldn't be for that reason. "IF" it happened, it would be due to lack of funding! We should have universal health care. But there is one tiny, little thing that would also be needed to be done. A very simple thing indeed. Do it right!

I also did another thread in the healthcare section about making college education not only free, but actually pay students to go to college. If the government figured we needed more doctors, all they would need to do is give students incentives to become doctors. I wonder what surgery wait times would be if the U.S. had more doctors than it needed.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Good you are here, overland.

You can educate those who do not understand single payer.

 

[overland]

Good you are here, overland.

You can educate those who do not understand single payer.

I can only try.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Yeah, let's wait months for surgery, etc. no.

Healthcare wait times hit 20 weeks in 2016: report

Yeah, let's wait months for surgery, etc. no.

Healthcare wait times hit 20 weeks in 2016: report

Yeah, let's wait months for surgery, etc. no.

Healthcare wait times hit 20 weeks in 2016: report

Yeah, let's wait months for surgery, etc. no. Healthcare wait times hit 20 weeks in 2016: report

You are talking about Canada, yes? And you don't think the US can do it better, yes?

The fact is that single payer forcing health insurance companies to bid competitively (the heart of capitalism) will open up care, lower prices, and give everyone quality service.

 

[depotoo]

Honey, wait time for coronary bypass in the US?
• Heart disease: Waits for diagnosis and treatment of heart disease, the leading cause of death in the US and Europe, plague nationalized health systems. OECD reported delays of several weeks to months for treatment in Australia, Canada, Finland, England, Norway, and Spain – not including waiting for specialist appointments. In 2008-2009, the average wait for CABG (coronary artery bypass) in the UK was 57 days. Swedes waited a median of 55 days, even though 75% were “imperative” or “urgent.” Canada’s heart surgery patients wait more than 10 weeks after seeing the doctor, and two months for CABG even after cardiologist appointments...
Despite worse outcomes and high risk for death, governments set extremely long “targets” for heart surgery. Wales targets up to eight months; England targets 18 weeks after referral; Canada benchmarks up to 26 weeks for bypass. Defined as acceptable by governments who set them, such targets propagate the illusion of meeting quality standards despite serious underperformance, endangering their (fully insured) citizens.

For possible cancer?

• Cancer screening: Confirming OECD studies, Howard in 2009 reported the US had superior screening rates to all 10 European countries (Austria, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland) for all cancers. And Americans are more likely to be screened younger, when the expected benefit is greatest. Not surprising, for almost all cancers, US patients have less advanced disease at diagnosis than in Europe.

Strikingly, the US wait for routine check-ups was significantly less than for Canadians with serious disorders like “probable cancer” of the gastrointestinal tract (26 days in CA) or proven GI bleeding (71 days in CA). Even for routine physicals, US waits are shorter than for sick patients in countries with nationalized insurance.



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0074CQ1UK/?tag=usmb-20

Yeah, let's wait months for surgery, etc. no.

Healthcare wait times hit 20 weeks in 2016: report

Ah! Some anti free healthcare BS! How long do Americans have to wait for surgery now. Tell me. How many doctors would cease to exist here if universal health care came into being. I can tell you. Not a single one! So "if" people had to wait longer for surgeries, it wouldn't be for that reason. "IF" it happened, it would be due to lack of funding! We should have universal health care. But there is one tiny, little thing that would also be needed to be done. A very simple thing indeed. Do it right!

I also did another thread in the healthcare section about making college education not only free, but actually pay students to go to college. If the government figured we needed more doctors, all they would need to do is give students incentives to become doctors. I wonder what surgery wait times would be if the U.S. had more doctors than it needed.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You only talk Canada but not about the US and the health care from VA, military, Medicare, Medicaid, etc, which is generally pretty good.

Use those as examples of failures, not Canada, if you want any cred.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Everything you ever wanted to know about Canadian health care in one post

So, how exactly does the Canadian health care system work?

The Canadian health care system was built around the principle that all citizens will receive all "medically necessary and hospital physician services." To that end, each of Canada's 10 provinces and three territories finance and run a statewide health insurance program. There is no cost-sharing for the health care services guaranteed under federal law.

While Canadians are guaranteed access to hospital and physician services, it is up to each province to decide whether to cover "supplementary" benefits, like dental care and drug coverage. About two-thirds of Canadians take out private, supplemental insurance policies (or have an employer-sponsored plan) to cover these services.

While Canada is traditionally thought of as a publicly financed system, spending on these supplemental benefits means that 30 percent of health spending comes from private sources. One 2011 study found that nearly all Canadian spending on dental care came from non-government dollars, 60 percent covered by employer-sponsored plans and 35 percent paid out of pocket. Some Canadian legislators have made pushes to increase the scope of Canada's public health plan, to cover more services, but have so far proved unsuccessful.

While Canada's health care system is publicly financed, many providers are not government employees. Instead, doctors are usually reimbursed by the government at a negotiated fee-for-service rate. The average primary care doctor in Canada earns $125,000 (in the United States, that number stands at $186,000).

 

[JakeStarkey]

And more . . .

How much does it cost?

In 2009, Canada spent 11.4 percent of its Gross Domestic Product on health care, which puts it on the slightly higher end of OECD countries: A 2010 Health Affairs study found that doctors in Ontario, a Canadian province, spent $22,205 each year dealing with the single-payer agency, compared to the $82,975 American doctors spend dealing with private insurance companies, Medicare and Medicaid.

 

[JakeStarkey]

And one more time, so the reader can see what depotoo is doing.

How well does the Canadian health care system work?

The OECD tends to give the Canadian health care system high marks on outcomes in its regular look at international health care systems. "Canada’s survival rates for breast and colorectal cancer are among the highest in the OECD," the international organization noted in its 2011 report. "Canada also does well in primary care, preventing costly hospital admissions from chronic conditions such as asthma and uncontrolled diabetes."

Where Canada does not do well is on wait times, which tend to be longer than in other countries, especially to see specialists or obtain an elective surgery. A Commonwealth Fund survey in 2010 found that 59 percent of respondents reported waiting more than four weeks for an appointment with a specialist, more than double the number in the United States/

Canada has recently started taking steps to address this: In 2005, it had each province set evidence-based benchmarks for wait times for various procedures. "Provinces have made considerable progress with efforts to manage and reduce wait times, and many now meet wait-time benchmarks for at least 75 percent of patients," the Commonwealth Fund found in 2010 report. "Generally, when available, trend data show waits for care are decreasing in the areas of joint replacement, sight restoration, cardiac surgery, and diagnostic imaging scans."

Do Canadians like their health care system?

Canadians certainly view their health care system as crucial to national identity: 85 percent say that eliminating the public plan would "result in a fundamental change to the nature of Canada."

That does not, however, mean there isn't gripping about its shortcomings. A 2007 poll conducted by Queens University in Kingston, Ont. found that, while public opinion had ticked up slightly, "a large majority of Canadians still believe that the system is unsustainable and urgently in need of substantive change." Most of the concerns had to do with long wait times and difficulty accessing care. The survey also found widespread support for increasing health care spending.

 

[depotoo]

"practices with openings for new patients are substantially more constrained for new Medicaid enrollees than for new privately insured patients—but that appointments offered were typically within a week of the call for both groups. The NHIS analysis underscores that Medicaid patients appear to be achieving comparable access to primary care despite more limited availability within their provider networks. "

Much, much lower wait times than Canada or other single pay or countries. Medicare wait times are about the same.
Access to Care for Low-Income Medicaid and Privately Insured Adults in 2012 in the National Health Interview Survey: A Context for Findings from a New Audit Study
Now, the VA, run by the govt? Is getting even worse, in some instances, than previously and we know the failure it has been.

"But the number of veterans who had to wait a month or more was up 23,000 from April, including the 297,013 veterans who have waited one to two months for an appointment."

some-veterans-still-wait-months-medical-care

But all of these are better than other countries wait times with single payor.

You can't talk about the US and the health care from VA, government, military, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.

Use those as examples of failures, not Canada, if you want any cred.

You only talk Canada but not about the US and the health care from VA, military, Medicare, Medicaid, etc, which is generally pretty good.

Use those as examples of failures, not Canada, if you want any cred.

 

[depotoo]

Let's check that out, shall we? And please note these are from huffington post-
Canada's Health-Care System Is Failing Patients
13 Things We All Hate About Canadian Health Care

And one more time, so the reader can see what depotoo is doing.

How well does the Canadian health care system work?

The OECD tends to give the Canadian health care system high marks on outcomes in its regular look at international health care systems. "Canada’s survival rates for breast and colorectal cancer are among the highest in the OECD," the international organization noted in its 2011 report. "Canada also does well in primary care, preventing costly hospital admissions from chronic conditions such as asthma and uncontrolled diabetes."

Where Canada does not do well is on wait times, which tend to be longer than in other countries, especially to see specialists or obtain an elective surgery. A Commonwealth Fund survey in 2010 found that 59 percent of respondents reported waiting more than four weeks for an appointment with a specialist, more than double the number in the United States/

Canada has recently started taking steps to address this: In 2005, it had each province set evidence-based benchmarks for wait times for various procedures. "Provinces have made considerable progress with efforts to manage and reduce wait times, and many now meet wait-time benchmarks for at least 75 percent of patients," the Commonwealth Fund found in 2010 report. "Generally, when available, trend data show waits for care are decreasing in the areas of joint replacement, sight restoration, cardiac surgery, and diagnostic imaging scans."

Do Canadians like their health care system?

Canadians certainly view their health care system as crucial to national identity: 85 percent say that eliminating the public plan would "result in a fundamental change to the nature of Canada."

That does not, however, mean there isn't gripping about its shortcomings. A 2007 poll conducted by Queens University in Kingston, Ont. found that, while public opinion had ticked up slightly, "a large majority of Canadians still believe that the system is unsustainable and urgently in need of substantive change." Most of the concerns had to do with long wait times and difficulty accessing care. The survey also found widespread support for increasing health care spending.

 

[fncceo]

Some anti free healthcare

I'd LOVE 'free' health care ... I'd love 'free' anything. The problem is ... it doesn't exist. Healthcare is frakking expensive ... doctors, nurses, technicians, drugs, fantastic machines ... all cost money and lots of it. Not only that, thanks to free enterprise, healthcare is evolving all the time ... new procedures are expensive.

Figure out a way to give 'free' health care to 350 million people, regardless of their medical conditions, without rationing and without bankrupting the country and I'll embrace it with all my healthy heart.

 

[JakeStarkey]

"practices with openings for new patients are substantially more constrained for new Medicaid enrollees than for new privately insured patients—but that appointments offered were typically within a week of the call for both groups. The NHIS analysis underscores that Medicaid patients appear to be achieving comparable access to primary care despite more limited availability within their provider networks. "

Much, much lower wait times than Canada or other single pay or countries. Medicare wait times are about the same.
Access to Care for Low-Income Medicaid and Privately Insured Adults in 2012 in the National Health Interview Survey: A Context for Findings from a New Audit Study
Now, the VA, run by the govt? Is getting even worse, in some instances, than previously and we know the failure it has been.

"But the number of veterans who had to wait a month or more was up 23,000 from April, including the 297,013 veterans who have waited one to two months for an appointment."

some-veterans-still-wait-months-medical-care

But all of these are better than other countries wait times with single payor.

You can't talk about the US and the health care from VA, government, military, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.

Use those as examples of failures, not Canada, if you want any cred.

You only talk Canada but not about the US and the health care from VA, military, Medicare, Medicaid, etc, which is generally pretty good.

Use those as examples of failures, not Canada, if you want any cred.

Depotoo, thank you for providing information that our government health programs are doing well. From your own info.

1. And the number of veterans who have to wait, depotoo, have the program easily avaialble to go to private providers as alternative to waiting excessively.

2. In America, depotoo, private and medicaid enrollees find "that appointments offered were typically within a week of the call for both groups. The NHIS analysis underscores that Medicaid patients appear to be achieving comparable access to primary care despite more limited availability within their provider networks."

So remind us of why you are talking about health care in Canada, when we are talking about health insurance in America, Depotoo.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Some anti free healthcare

I'd LOVE 'free' health care ... I'd love 'free' anything. The problem is ... it doesn't exist. Healthcare is frakking expensive ... doctors, nurses, technicians, drugs, fantastic machines ... all cost money and lots of it. Not only that, thanks to free enterprise, healthcare is evolving all the time ... new procedures are expensive.

Figure out a way to give 'free' health care to 350 million people, regardless of their medical conditions, without rationing and without bankrupting the country and I'll embrace it with all my healthy heart.

"free" is a deflection, fncceo, and you know it.

Single payer would force competitive bidding, the heat of our economic system, which would offer affordable, accessible, and quality care for everyone.

 

[overland]

Honey, wait time for coronary bypass in the US?
• Heart disease: Waits for diagnosis and treatment of heart disease, the leading cause of death in the US and Europe, plague nationalized health systems. OECD reported delays of several weeks to months for treatment in Australia, Canada, Finland, England, Norway, and Spain – not including waiting for specialist appointments. In 2008-2009, the average wait for CABG (coronary artery bypass) in the UK was 57 days. Swedes waited a median of 55 days, even though 75% were “imperative” or “urgent.” Canada’s heart surgery patients wait more than 10 weeks after seeing the doctor, and two months for CABG even after cardiologist appointments...
Despite worse outcomes and high risk for death, governments set extremely long “targets” for heart surgery. Wales targets up to eight months; England targets 18 weeks after referral; Canada benchmarks up to 26 weeks for bypass. Defined as acceptable by governments who set them, such targets propagate the illusion of meeting quality standards despite serious underperformance, endangering their (fully insured) citizens.

For possible cancer?

• Cancer screening: Confirming OECD studies, Howard in 2009 reported the US had superior screening rates to all 10 European countries (Austria, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland) for all cancers. And Americans are more likely to be screened younger, when the expected benefit is greatest. Not surprising, for almost all cancers, US patients have less advanced disease at diagnosis than in Europe.

Strikingly, the US wait for routine check-ups was significantly less than for Canadians with serious disorders like “probable cancer” of the gastrointestinal tract (26 days in CA) or proven GI bleeding (71 days in CA). Even for routine physicals, US waits are shorter than for sick patients in countries with nationalized insurance.



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0074CQ1UK/?tag=usmb-20

Yeah, let's wait months for surgery, etc. no.

Healthcare wait times hit 20 weeks in 2016: report

Ah! Some anti free healthcare BS! How long do Americans have to wait for surgery now. Tell me. How many doctors would cease to exist here if universal health care came into being. I can tell you. Not a single one! So "if" people had to wait longer for surgeries, it wouldn't be for that reason. "IF" it happened, it would be due to lack of funding! We should have universal health care. But there is one tiny, little thing that would also be needed to be done. A very simple thing indeed. Do it right!

I also did another thread in the healthcare section about making college education not only free, but actually pay students to go to college. If the government figured we needed more doctors, all they would need to do is give students incentives to become doctors. I wonder what surgery wait times would be if the U.S. had more doctors than it needed.

All the U.S. has to do is fix any problems that other countries with nationalized health care have. We need to do what they do. But it doesn't have to be exactly. And why should the wealthy, who are often wealthy because of legal criminality, have to get better service than anybody else.

Also, in the U.S. there are many people who go bankrupt or become homeless because they can't afford their medical bills. That puts financial and other burdens on society in general. Do you know who that happens to in countries with universal health care? NOBODY! Also, many people are basically told by insurance companies here in the U.S. to fuck off and die. They will often find some reason to deny coverage. Do you know who that happens to in countries with nationalized health care? NOBODY! Neither do those countries deal kindly with some jerkoffs who raise the price of some medication by 1500%. After all this, just how bad do some supposed extended wait times for treatment seem.

 

[depotoo]

They get to die from waiting in other countries. Just as some of our vets here have.

Honey, wait time for coronary bypass in the US?
• Heart disease: Waits for diagnosis and treatment of heart disease, the leading cause of death in the US and Europe, plague nationalized health systems. OECD reported delays of several weeks to months for treatment in Australia, Canada, Finland, England, Norway, and Spain – not including waiting for specialist appointments. In 2008-2009, the average wait for CABG (coronary artery bypass) in the UK was 57 days. Swedes waited a median of 55 days, even though 75% were “imperative” or “urgent.” Canada’s heart surgery patients wait more than 10 weeks after seeing the doctor, and two months for CABG even after cardiologist appointments...
Despite worse outcomes and high risk for death, governments set extremely long “targets” for heart surgery. Wales targets up to eight months; England targets 18 weeks after referral; Canada benchmarks up to 26 weeks for bypass. Defined as acceptable by governments who set them, such targets propagate the illusion of meeting quality standards despite serious underperformance, endangering their (fully insured) citizens.

For possible cancer?

• Cancer screening: Confirming OECD studies, Howard in 2009 reported the US had superior screening rates to all 10 European countries (Austria, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland) for all cancers. And Americans are more likely to be screened younger, when the expected benefit is greatest. Not surprising, for almost all cancers, US patients have less advanced disease at diagnosis than in Europe.

Strikingly, the US wait for routine check-ups was significantly less than for Canadians with serious disorders like “probable cancer” of the gastrointestinal tract (26 days in CA) or proven GI bleeding (71 days in CA). Even for routine physicals, US waits are shorter than for sick patients in countries with nationalized insurance.



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0074CQ1UK/?tag=usmb-20

Yeah, let's wait months for surgery, etc. no.

Healthcare wait times hit 20 weeks in 2016: report

Ah! Some anti free healthcare BS! How long do Americans have to wait for surgery now. Tell me. How many doctors would cease to exist here if universal health care came into being. I can tell you. Not a single one! So "if" people had to wait longer for surgeries, it wouldn't be for that reason. "IF" it happened, it would be due to lack of funding! We should have universal health care. But there is one tiny, little thing that would also be needed to be done. A very simple thing indeed. Do it right!

I also did another thread in the healthcare section about making college education not only free, but actually pay students to go to college. If the government figured we needed more doctors, all they would need to do is give students incentives to become doctors. I wonder what surgery wait times would be if the U.S. had more doctors than it needed.

All the U.S. has to do is fix any problems that other countries with nationalized health care have. We need to do what they do. But it doesn't have to be exactly. And why should the wealthy, who are often wealthy because of legal criminality, have to get better service than anybody else.

Also, in the U.S. there are many people who go bankrupt or become homeless because they can't afford their medical bills. That puts financial and other burdens on society in general. Do you know who that happens to in countries with universal health care? NOBODY! Also, many people are basically told by insurance companies here in the U.S. to fuck off and die. They will often find some reason to deny coverage. Do you know who that happens to in countries with nationalized health care? NOBODY! Neither do those countries deal kindly with some jerkoffs who raise the price of some medication by 1500%. After all this, just how bad do some supposed extended wait times for treatment seem.

 

[depotoo]

Yep, they are overall compared to other countries, but are getting closer to those other countries as Obamacare ages. And the cost is becoming prohibitive for many, having to pay for coverage they have no need for.

"practices with openings for new patients are substantially more constrained for new Medicaid enrollees than for new privately insured patients—but that appointments offered were typically within a week of the call for both groups. The NHIS analysis underscores that Medicaid patients appear to be achieving comparable access to primary care despite more limited availability within their provider networks. "

Much, much lower wait times than Canada or other single pay or countries. Medicare wait times are about the same.
Access to Care for Low-Income Medicaid and Privately Insured Adults in 2012 in the National Health Interview Survey: A Context for Findings from a New Audit Study
Now, the VA, run by the govt? Is getting even worse, in some instances, than previously and we know the failure it has been.

"But the number of veterans who had to wait a month or more was up 23,000 from April, including the 297,013 veterans who have waited one to two months for an appointment."

some-veterans-still-wait-months-medical-care

But all of these are better than other countries wait times with single payor.

You can't talk about the US and the health care from VA, government, military, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.

Use those as examples of failures, not Canada, if you want any cred.

You only talk Canada but not about the US and the health care from VA, military, Medicare, Medicaid, etc, which is generally pretty good.

Use those as examples of failures, not Canada, if you want any cred.

Depotoo, thank you for providing information that our government health programs are doing well. From your own info.

1. And the number of veterans who have to wait, depotoo, have the program easily avaialble to go to private providers as alternative to waiting excessively.

2. In America, depotoo, private and medicaid enrollees find "that appointments offered were typically within a week of the call for both groups. The NHIS analysis underscores that Medicaid patients appear to be achieving comparable access to primary care despite more limited availability within their provider networks."

So remind us of why you are talking about health care in Canada, when we are talking about health insurance in America, Depotoo.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Well that is not so.

Yep, they are overall compared to other countries, but are getting closer to those other countries as Obamacare ages. And the cost is becoming prohibitive for many, having to pay for coverage they have no need for.

"practices with openings for new patients are substantially more constrained for new Medicaid enrollees than for new privately insured patients—but that appointments offered were typically within a week of the call for both groups. The NHIS analysis underscores that Medicaid patients appear to be achieving comparable access to primary care despite more limited availability within their provider networks. "

Much, much lower wait times than Canada or other single pay or countries. Medicare wait times are about the same.
Access to Care for Low-Income Medicaid and Privately Insured Adults in 2012 in the National Health Interview Survey: A Context for Findings from a New Audit Study
Now, the VA, run by the govt? Is getting even worse, in some instances, than previously and we know the failure it has been.

"But the number of veterans who had to wait a month or more was up 23,000 from April, including the 297,013 veterans who have waited one to two months for an appointment."

some-veterans-still-wait-months-medical-care

But all of these are better than other countries wait times with single payor.

You can't talk about the US and the health care from VA, government, military, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.

Use those as examples of failures, not Canada, if you want any cred.

You only talk Canada but not about the US and the health care from VA, military, Medicare, Medicaid, etc, which is generally pretty good.

Use those as examples of failures, not Canada, if you want any cred.

Depotoo, thank you for providing information that our government health programs are doing well. From your own info.

1. And the number of veterans who have to wait, depotoo, have the program easily avaialble to go to private providers as alternative to waiting excessively.

2. In America, depotoo, private and medicaid enrollees find "that appointments offered were typically within a week of the call for both groups. The NHIS analysis underscores that Medicaid patients appear to be achieving comparable access to primary care despite more limited availability within their provider networks."

So remind us of why you are talking about health care in Canada, when we are talking about health insurance in America, Depotoo.

Because he knows that single payer is inevitable, and because he knows that medicare, medicaid, VA, and other government health care is pretty good.