- Thread starter
- #121
You keep repeating the same FDR boot-licking posts as though your hot air offers any rebuttal to the myriad facts, with links, that I post.
You are simply the poster child for 'Ideologue.'
Harry Hopkins....Soviet Spy
- Thread starter PoliticalChic
- Start date
You keep repeating the same FDR boot-licking posts as though your hot air offers any rebuttal to the myriad facts, with links, that I post.
You are simply the poster child for 'Ideologue.'
ThirdTerm
Severely Conservative
One great example of the achievements of the communist spies inside the American government was the "Hull Note," which was the hard ultimatum delivered from President Roosevelt and Secretary of State Cordell Hull to Japan on November 26, 1941. It was the very one which made Japan finally decide to attack Pearl Harbor. The draft of the Hull Note was not really written by Hull himself, but was written by a high official Harry White, who after the war turned out to be a communist spy for the Soviet Union.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FouuKUhxqdc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FouuKUhxqdc[/ame]
White’s plan was calculated to inflame public opinion in Japan and undermine Emperor Hirohito and Prime Minister Prince Fumimaro Konoye, both of whom favored peace with the U.S. It was also aimed at guaranteeing the rise to power of Japan’s political forces that were beating the drums for war. This is precisely — and predictably — what happened. However, White did not undertake this move on his own initiative, it is important to note, but as a directive of the NKVD (an earlier name for the Soviet KGB). His Kremlin bosses were most anxious for assurance that Japan would not attack the Soviet Union; they thus expended great efforts through their spy and propaganda networks in Japan, Europe, and the United States to ensure that Japan would strike America, rather than the U.S.S.R.
Steil notes that, as a result of White’s fierce lobbying, FDR “authorized [Secretary of State] Hull to present the Japanese with what became known as the Ten-Point Note. Hull summoned Nomura and Kurusu on November 26 to deliver the austere ultimatum, incorporating White’s demands on China, without concessions. An alarmed Kurusu told Hull that the Japanese government would ‘throw up its hands’ if presented with such a response to their truce proposal. Hull did not waiver. The collision course had been set.”
And Soviet agent Harry Dexter White had set that course. Steil comments:
Steil notes that “the Soviets, American allies in the European war, were anxious to ensure that such an attack did take place.” He quotes Soviet spymaster Vladimir Karpov in this regard:
How was that possible? Steil allows Karpov to explain:
The Communist Agent Who Caused Pearl Harbor - and Global Economic Havoc
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FouuKUhxqdc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FouuKUhxqdc[/ame]
White’s plan was calculated to inflame public opinion in Japan and undermine Emperor Hirohito and Prime Minister Prince Fumimaro Konoye, both of whom favored peace with the U.S. It was also aimed at guaranteeing the rise to power of Japan’s political forces that were beating the drums for war. This is precisely — and predictably — what happened. However, White did not undertake this move on his own initiative, it is important to note, but as a directive of the NKVD (an earlier name for the Soviet KGB). His Kremlin bosses were most anxious for assurance that Japan would not attack the Soviet Union; they thus expended great efforts through their spy and propaganda networks in Japan, Europe, and the United States to ensure that Japan would strike America, rather than the U.S.S.R.
Steil notes that, as a result of White’s fierce lobbying, FDR “authorized [Secretary of State] Hull to present the Japanese with what became known as the Ten-Point Note. Hull summoned Nomura and Kurusu on November 26 to deliver the austere ultimatum, incorporating White’s demands on China, without concessions. An alarmed Kurusu told Hull that the Japanese government would ‘throw up its hands’ if presented with such a response to their truce proposal. Hull did not waiver. The collision course had been set.”
And Soviet agent Harry Dexter White had set that course. Steil comments:
Steil notes that “the Soviets, American allies in the European war, were anxious to ensure that such an attack did take place.” He quotes Soviet spymaster Vladimir Karpov in this regard:
How was that possible? Steil allows Karpov to explain:
The Communist Agent Who Caused Pearl Harbor - and Global Economic Havoc
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And you keep using the same old garbage sources that were used by McCarthy and his followers from the 50's or redo's of that trash made by the likes of political hacks like West.
CrusaderFrank
Diamond Member
- May 20, 2009
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Japan should have attacked the USSR
Have to give Stalin credit for directing his US puppets into a collision with Japan. The timing of Pearl Harbor was PERFECT For the USSR.
In Dec 1941, the Germans had Moscow in their field glasses
Mushroom
Gold Member
And surely you have some kind of reference to validate that insane claim, right?
Mushroom
Gold Member
Uhhh, sorry. This is a complete and utter fail of such magnitude I can't believe it.
Mostly because the fleet that was enroute to attack Japan had left on 25 November!
Now kindly tell me how in the hell this would have "made Japan finally decide to attack Pearl Harbor", when the fleet that was going to do so had left the day before?
- Thread starter
- #127
- Thread starter
- #128
Background:
a.In " Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter make a very strong case for Pearl Harbor being the most complex and successful KGB operation, designed to avert a Japanese attack on the USSR, and to force the United States to fight a two-front war, and be unable to stop Stalin from control of at least half of Europe. In 1995, former Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed his role in this "Operation Snow."
b. Pavlov "was sent to the United States seven months before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to meet with Harry Dexter White, then director of Monetary Research for the Treasury. Did "Snow" mean "White"? Yes, Harry Dexter White had been a Soviet "asset" since the early 1930s, providing information to Whittaker Chambers, a courier for the communist underground. By 1941 White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury. Pavlov wrote that the Soviets feared a Japanese attack from the east, and his mission was to discuss with White what could be done to keep the Japanese from joining forces with the Germans." Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History
c. "The chapter on Pearl Harbor is likewise instructive as to how Soviet agents operated. Japan seriously considered an attack on Russia, but Stalin’s agents in the Japanese government and in the highly efficient Sorge spy ring on the island nation helped persuade Imperial Japan to turn its aggression “elsewhere.” That “elsewhere” eventually turned out to be Pearl Harbor. Stalin’s acolytes in the U.S. were simultaneously pushing a foreign policy against Japan that would lead the Japanese away from any designs on Siberia and toward conflict with America."
Infiltration, intrigue and Communists - Conservative News
- Thread starter
- #129
No.
Actually, having more expertise on the subject than you, I provide links and sources.
You, on the other hand, begin with your preparatory spittle-spewing, and proceed all the way up to your signature move: soiling your shorts.
And that is all that can be expected from ideologues wedded to the FDR cult.
Book of Jeremiah
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From this evidence West presents ( emails, conflicting stories from witnesses ) it does appear the Hopkins was indeed Agent 19, Political Chick. I looked this up this morning. Note the email dialogue. This looks like a cover up.
The Death of the Grown-Up | Diana West > Home - Warning: Historians at WorkThen Radosh went farther still.
He describes a dramatic scene at a gathering of espionage experts and authors he, Radosh, in part presided over at the Wilson Center in Washington, DC in 2009. Among the assembly were M. Stanton Evans, John Earl Haynes, Harvard's Mark Kramer, Eduard Mark (d. 2009) Herbert Romerstein (d. 2013), and Alexander Vassiliev.
In this company, Radosh writes, Mark “publicly” recanted his 1998 findings that identified Hopkins as “19.”
Radosh:
At a conference on Soviet espionage held a week before his untimely death, West’s source, Eduard Mark, publicly stated that he now acknowledged that Harry Hopkins was not Agent 19, and that the conclusion he had reached in his 1998 article was false.”
In Part Two of The Rebuttal, I flag a discrepancy in the record. I compare Radosh's August 7, 2013 statement -- Mark recanted his thesis -- with what he wrote me in an email two months earlier on June 13, 2013.
Addressing the same topic -- Hopkins/"19" vs. Duggan/"19" -- Radosh wrote me:
Were Mark still alive, I’m certain he would have conceded the point.”
What was that again?
Were Mark still alive, I'm certain he would have conceded the point.
On August 7, 2013, Radosh describes Mark's public recantation of his thesis in 2009. Mark died the following week.
But in June 13, 2013, Radosh is speculating that "were Mark still alive," he would have recanted his thesis.
Both statements cannot be true.
Here is the full email of June 13, 2013:
Diana,
Re what Bostom says about Hopkins is wrong, and if it is from your book, it is also incorrect.
Here's what John Haynes just e-mailed me:
"Ed Mark was wrong about 19. Harvey and I always treated 19 as unknown. Mark was sure he an eliminated all of the possibilities and Hopkins was the the last man standing. I disagreed with him and told him he was putting too much faith in his analysis of who was at various Trident conference social events. I thought he might be right but that the evidence was just too thin to reach a conclusion, even a tentative one. This was prior to AV's notebooks [Alexander Vassiliev's notebooks of hand-copied KGB cables]. When AV's notebooks came out, 19 was repeatedly identified as Laurence Duggan."
The Vassiliev papers show conclusively that Larry Duggan was 19, not Hopkins. So while Hopkins might have been pro-Soviet, as others were, and naive and a fellow-traveler, he was not an agent.
One has to be meticulous and careful when making charges, and very careful about consulting the most authoritative sources. Were Mark still alive, I'm certain he would have conceded the point. He was a careful scholar for the most part.
Ron
It's hard not to linger a little over the undercutting tone of that final enconium to Mark, but the fact remains that as of June 13, 2013, Radosh and John Earl Haynes both are writing as if Mark's 1998 thesis is still intact. In other words, there is not any indication, not a whisper, about Marks' 2009 before-death public recantation that Radosh reports in his August review.
It is also worth pointing out that Haynes similarly treated the Mark thesis as current in a January 2013 essay he posted here. In this essay, Haynes argues that “19” was Laurence Duggan, not Harry Hopkins as Mark's 1998 paper argued. Discussing Mark, Haynes wrote: “But on the matter of Venona 812 he and I disagreed.”
Note that he didn’t say, “On the matter of Venona 812, he and I disagreed until Mark publicly recanted his paper’s findings in 2009.”
I asked John Earl Haynes for any further information he could offer about what transpired at the 2009 conference. Here is an excerpt from his August 16 email. (Full email exchange below.)
At the symposium Ed did mention briefly in one of the Q&A sessions that he no longer held to his view that "19" was Hopkins. cont reading on link to see email dialogue which exposes a cover up.
______________________
It is very suspicious that Eduard Mark dies suddenly only one week after he allegedly recanted on his own findings about Hopkins being "19" at a meeting with men who offer different versions of what happened. It looks like Eduard was murdered which would prove he was right. It also proves Political Chick is right! Good job!
Question! Are Americans so gullible as to believe that a man who stood by his findings since 1998 would suddenly change his mind before a few people in 2009 for absolutely no reason and then die a week later unexpectedly? The Communists are certainly hoping we are!
The Death of the Grown-Up | Diana West > Home - Warning: Historians at WorkThen Radosh went farther still.
He describes a dramatic scene at a gathering of espionage experts and authors he, Radosh, in part presided over at the Wilson Center in Washington, DC in 2009. Among the assembly were M. Stanton Evans, John Earl Haynes, Harvard's Mark Kramer, Eduard Mark (d. 2009) Herbert Romerstein (d. 2013), and Alexander Vassiliev.
In this company, Radosh writes, Mark “publicly” recanted his 1998 findings that identified Hopkins as “19.”
Radosh:
At a conference on Soviet espionage held a week before his untimely death, West’s source, Eduard Mark, publicly stated that he now acknowledged that Harry Hopkins was not Agent 19, and that the conclusion he had reached in his 1998 article was false.”
In Part Two of The Rebuttal, I flag a discrepancy in the record. I compare Radosh's August 7, 2013 statement -- Mark recanted his thesis -- with what he wrote me in an email two months earlier on June 13, 2013.
Addressing the same topic -- Hopkins/"19" vs. Duggan/"19" -- Radosh wrote me:
Were Mark still alive, I’m certain he would have conceded the point.”
What was that again?
Were Mark still alive, I'm certain he would have conceded the point.
On August 7, 2013, Radosh describes Mark's public recantation of his thesis in 2009. Mark died the following week.
But in June 13, 2013, Radosh is speculating that "were Mark still alive," he would have recanted his thesis.
Both statements cannot be true.
Here is the full email of June 13, 2013:
Diana,
Re what Bostom says about Hopkins is wrong, and if it is from your book, it is also incorrect.
Here's what John Haynes just e-mailed me:
"Ed Mark was wrong about 19. Harvey and I always treated 19 as unknown. Mark was sure he an eliminated all of the possibilities and Hopkins was the the last man standing. I disagreed with him and told him he was putting too much faith in his analysis of who was at various Trident conference social events. I thought he might be right but that the evidence was just too thin to reach a conclusion, even a tentative one. This was prior to AV's notebooks [Alexander Vassiliev's notebooks of hand-copied KGB cables]. When AV's notebooks came out, 19 was repeatedly identified as Laurence Duggan."
The Vassiliev papers show conclusively that Larry Duggan was 19, not Hopkins. So while Hopkins might have been pro-Soviet, as others were, and naive and a fellow-traveler, he was not an agent.
One has to be meticulous and careful when making charges, and very careful about consulting the most authoritative sources. Were Mark still alive, I'm certain he would have conceded the point. He was a careful scholar for the most part.
Ron
It's hard not to linger a little over the undercutting tone of that final enconium to Mark, but the fact remains that as of June 13, 2013, Radosh and John Earl Haynes both are writing as if Mark's 1998 thesis is still intact. In other words, there is not any indication, not a whisper, about Marks' 2009 before-death public recantation that Radosh reports in his August review.
It is also worth pointing out that Haynes similarly treated the Mark thesis as current in a January 2013 essay he posted here. In this essay, Haynes argues that “19” was Laurence Duggan, not Harry Hopkins as Mark's 1998 paper argued. Discussing Mark, Haynes wrote: “But on the matter of Venona 812 he and I disagreed.”
Note that he didn’t say, “On the matter of Venona 812, he and I disagreed until Mark publicly recanted his paper’s findings in 2009.”
I asked John Earl Haynes for any further information he could offer about what transpired at the 2009 conference. Here is an excerpt from his August 16 email. (Full email exchange below.)
At the symposium Ed did mention briefly in one of the Q&A sessions that he no longer held to his view that "19" was Hopkins. cont reading on link to see email dialogue which exposes a cover up.
______________________
It is very suspicious that Eduard Mark dies suddenly only one week after he allegedly recanted on his own findings about Hopkins being "19" at a meeting with men who offer different versions of what happened. It looks like Eduard was murdered which would prove he was right. It also proves Political Chick is right! Good job!
Question! Are Americans so gullible as to believe that a man who stood by his findings since 1998 would suddenly change his mind before a few people in 2009 for absolutely no reason and then die a week later unexpectedly? The Communists are certainly hoping we are!
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- Thread starter
- #131
How about more testimony that Hopkins controlled FDR...and toward what end:
1. George Earle was a special emissary of FDR's to Europe...and returned in 1944 with proof that implicated the Soviets in the Katyn Forest massacre (In April of 1943, the mass graves of thousands of shot, bayoneted, and asphyxiated Polish officers were uncovered in the Katyn pine forest near Smolensk, Russia.)
Earle testified later at the Katyn Forest hearings that Joe Levy of the NYTimes, warned him that bringing an anti-Soviet report to FDR would be a career ender : "George, you don't know what you are going to over there. Harry Hopkins has completed domination over the President and the whole atmosphere over there is 'pink.'"
West, "American Betrayal," p.211.
2. On March 22, 1945, FDR wrote to Earle: "I have noted with concern your plan to publicize your unfavorable opinion of one of our allies. I do not wish you to do so. Not only do I not wish it, I specifically forbid you to do so."
He then ordered Earle to Samoa for the duration.
Book of Jeremiah
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FDR was one evil man!
Mushroom
Gold Member
Sorry, that is all conspiracy theory nonsense. The KGB had no influence inside the Japanese Imperial Cabinet, and could no more have influenced it to start a war with the US as it could have influenced me to have tea over coffee in the morning.
And BTW, your source has been rejected in most serious circles, because the majority of the claims are unsourced. Yes, they do have documents for part of their case, but the majority is based upon "confidential interviews with the people involved".
Yea, about as much "proof" in my mind as a "confidential" interview with the real gunman in the JFK-RFK killings.
No, Pearl Harbor happened for purely logistical reasons. They needed to go after Indonesia and South-East Asia. And there was no way that Japan was going to expand their war with the US forces sitting like they were in the Philippines.
No conspiracies, no hidden agenda, no carriers kept out of Pearl on purpose, and you will find that when people start to drag in CT as part of their argument, I start to tune it out.
Much of the debate on WWII Soviet related intelligence is dependent on which Russian spys and spy masters one decides to believe. Defectors have less credibility IMO due to motivation (financial). I suggest reading interviews and information about Lt. Gen. Vitaly Pavlov, particularly his interviews with Svetlana Chervonnaya when researching accusations Americans being "Soviet spys" such as Hopkins.
Book of Jeremiah
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Actually, Camp, Anatoli Galistin was a Major in the KGB when he defected. He said that after he defected many defectors would be sent along to discredit him. It does appear that there is a concerted effort to discredit anyone proving Hopkins was "19". Then you have Eduard Marks story where he suddenly dies a week after allegedly changing his beliefs that Hopkins was "19". The people claiming he changed his story cannot even keep their own story straight on what happened. The Soviets are not as clever as they think they are.
Mushroom
Gold Member
Actually, no it is not.
Over the last quarter century, a lot of hard evidence has come out about Soviet espionage. And a lot of it from the KGB itself. And then through releases of previously classified material, like Venona.
Heck, a great deal of this information is available for download!
KGB DOCUMENTS ON-LINE - KGB documents online
Then we have Mitrokhin Archive, the Vassiliev Papers, and huge amounts of other data released over the years. Trying to claim that the "truth is being hidden" is simply ignoring fact and following conspiracy theories.
I for one follow facts. If Hopkins was a spy, I think there would be evidence by now. If the Soviets were really behind the US having to enter the war, there would be facts to support it. If the Apollo landings were faked by NASA and Hollywood, we would have facts to back this up.
Do I think Hopkins was a traitor, he may very well have been. But that does not mean he was a spy. And I have heard the Operation Snow theories before, nothing new there. From all reasonable evidence, it appears that there was such a project, but it ultimately made absolutely no difference at all.
Japan wanted the Philippines. The only way to stop or delay an American attempt to retake the islands before they could be secured was to attack the fleet and facilities at Pearl Harbor.
Period. In reality, the Japanese could not have cared less about Hawaii. They were after the Philippines.
Mushroom
Gold Member
They never really have been. Soviet (and Russian) methods tend to be rather straightforward and brutal. Not the elegance that most people think of.
Look at the Bulgarian Umbrella for example. Not really very sophisticated at all, just stab somebody with a poisoned umbrella.
Or poisoning Viktor Yushchenko with Dioxin.
- Thread starter
- #138
You may choose to believe what ever you wish.
Why imagine that Japan would be any more difficult to manipulate than the United States was?
After all, our WWII generation certainly wouldn't have accepted the communist proposals that you live under today:
1. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
2. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces.
3. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
4. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
5. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions.
6. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
7. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.
8. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."
9. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."
10. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
11. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man." Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."
12. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
13. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce
Now....wouldn't an honest appraisal agree that all or almost all are clearly the aims and direction of Democrats/Liberals/Progressive leaders?
I got 'em from a website of declared communist goals...
The Communist Takeover Of America - 45 Declared Goals (1963)
The Communist Takeover Of America - 45 Declared Goals
You accept the above....do you think your grandfather would?
You do know that totalitarian medicine, i.e., ObamaCare, was a Soviet inclination, don't you?
Mushroom
Gold Member
- Thread starter
- #140
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