Hamas: Palestinian Protests Against: The Use Of Human Shields.

[teddyearp]

Jose_LA, your two posts totally reflect the Pro Palestinian rhetoric in some ways. You missed part of my point. You bring up three posts that are not a part of this thread, and now another one of mine that is not part of this thread. From my time here, I have seen similar tactics from those on the side of the Palestinians.

But you do have another point; it may seem to you that my misplaced quote in this thread makes me totally believe that ALL Palestinians share Hamas' ultimate goal: the end of the Jews in the Middle East. Thank you though for injecting your own views; as that is why I am still in wonder (in OTHER threads) if all Palestinians want the Jews exterminated, or (in this thread) only the radical Palestinians.

In this thread I am holding out some hope, if you will allow me to do so.

Like I said, you are doing a great job from your handlers; deflect, distract; confuse, disorder. Keep it up.

These are the traits of an Internet troll after all.

 

[José]

Originally posted by teddyearp
Like I said, you are doing a great job from your handlers; deflect, distract; confuse, disorder. Keep it up.

These are the traits of an Internet troll after all.

Last time I checked trolls deflect and distract by twisting and distorting other people's statements and opinions.

How could I distort your position by simply quoting your words... a quite objetive statement with little to no room for subjective interpretation?

The problem is that this (the two-state solution) has been offered to the Palestinians, but they are the ones who refuse and want it all and the Jews out of the M.E.

It seems to me there's a lot of confusion and disorder around here, teddy, but they happen to reside in your mind not in my posts.

But by all means, keep your "misguided" hope if this makes you feel better.

 

[José]

Here's the skinny on my take on Rocco's thread:

The issue that unites nearly all Palestinians is the dimantlement of Israel, not the use of violence to achieve it.

Poll after poll reveals the palestinian people united about the end of Israel and divided about the use of violence.

If Rocco had created a thread stating that palestinians are slowly transitioning from armed struggle to a civil rights movement for equal rights in Palestine I would have no problem with it.

But when you say palestinians are distancing themselves from groups that advocate political violence and make no mention of their massive rejection of the "jewish character" of Israel you subtly mislead people into believing Israel is gaining any kind of acceptance among the arab population of Palestine even if this was not Rocco's intention.

 

[RoccoR]

José_LA, et al,

OH come on now!

Originally posted by teddyearp
messages that in no way whatsoever show the resistance movement (both peaceful and violent) has massive popular support among Palestinians.

This thread becomes more and more embarrasing to Rocco with each new "friendly" poster that decides to participate.

Here is teddy saying the exact opposite of what he said above a few moments ago JUST TO BE CONTRARIAN:

Originally posted by teddy WHEN HE WAS NOT TRYING TO BE CONTRARIAN:
The problem is that this (the two-state solution) has been offered to the Palestinians, but they are the ones who refuse and want it all and the Jews out of the M.E.

Israel Breaches The Ceasefire Terms Page 3 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

In other words when teddy is not trying to score a cheap point in a debate he openly admits that nearly all palestinians share Hamas' ultimate goal: the end of the jewish racial dictatorship (even those who reject violence of any kind).

(OBSERVATION)

<SNIP>W. Bank, E. Jerusalem), and make peace, I bet the World might give Israel some slack for SOME of the settlements if Israel settles this 2-State Solution with the Palestinians. Equitably.
THEY CAN'T HAVE IT ALL

The problem is that this has been offered to the Palestinians, but they are the ones who refuse and want it all and the Jews out of the M.E.

(COMMENT)

First off, I went back to read Teddy's post. I think I captured his intent and I'm of the opinion it is not contradictory at all. There are Palestinians today that reject the Two-State Solution. I believe that the HAMAS Official Position Paper of 2013 (by Khaled Meshaal, HAMAS Political Leader) as much as affirms that position:

1. Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.

2. Palestine - all of Palestine - is a land of Islamic and Arab affiliation, a blessed sacred land, that has a major portion in the heart of every Arab and Muslim

3. No recognition of the legitimacy of the occupation whatever; this is a principled position, political and moral, and therefore do not recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and recognition of "Israel" and the legitimacy of its presence on any part of Palestine no matter how long; nand it will not be long, God willing.​

And, as to the Gazan People, there are opinions on this very discussion board, which argues that it is a very small minority (implied insignificant) of Gazans that oppose HAMAS. It is argued that HAMAS enjoys popular support of the terrorist organization. This makes a majority of the People of Gaza in direct support of a terrorist organization (providing material support).

But I think that the concept of a peaceful solution is still intact. That it is better to refrain from the threat or use of force as a means of solving international disputes. And the People of Gaza (arguably a significant number) support the HAMAS. HAMAS openly advocates:

4. Liberation of Palestine is a national duty; it is the responsibility of the Palestinian people and the Arab and Islamic nation, it is also a humanitarian responsibility in accordance with the requirements of truth and justice.

5. Jihad and the armed resistance is the right and real method for the liberation of Palestine, and the restoration of all the rights, together with, of course, all forms of political and diplomatic struggle including in the media, public and legal [spheres]; with the need to mobilize all the energies of the nation in the battle.​

This is:

The GAZANs openly support HAMAS.
The HAMAS openly support JIHAD.
------------------------------------------------
Therefore:
The GAZANs openly support JIHAD.

• JIHAD is terrorism.
• HAMAS is a terrorist organization.

Therefore:
The GAZANs openly support a terrorist organization.
​

Now we all know the dangers of saying ALL and EVERY with respect to the magnitude of the number of Gazans that actually support terrorism. But to hear HAMAS talk, they enjoy support from an overwhelming number of Gazans.

Support for Hamas skyrockets following war, poll shows
Vast majority of Palestinians say Hamas defeated Israel, and would like to see the same thing happen in the West Bank
BY ELHANAN MILLER September 2, 2014,
Read more: Support for Hamas skyrockets following war, poll shows | The Times of Israel Support for Hamas skyrockets following war poll shows The Times of Israel
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook
​

You are more than free to argue the point concerning the magnitude of Palestinians or (the subset of) Gazans that provide material support. I will even spot you all the Gazan Citizens that lost out when HAMAS robbed the Gaza City Bank of Palestine (for not the first time).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

José_LA, et al,

Well, maybe.

Here's the skinny on my take on Rocco's thread:

The issue that unites nearly all Palestinians is the dimantlement of Israel, not the use of violence to achieve it.

Poll after poll reveals the palestinian people united about the end of Israel and divided about the use of violence.

If Rocco had created a thread stating that palestinians are slowly transitioning from armed struggle to a civil rights movement for equal rights in Palestine I would have no problem with it.

But when you say palestinians are distancing themselves from groups that advocate political violence and make no mention of their massive rejection of the "jewish character" of Israel you subtly mislead people into believing Israel is gaining any kind of acceptance among the arab population of Palestine even if this was not Rocco's intention.

(COMMENT)

I would agree that there is a significant number of Palestinians, but in particular, Gazans --- that support the "dismantlement" of Israel. Yes, this is fair to say. But in that stipulation, there is also the appearance of evolution in the process.

On the matter of "slowly transitioning from armed struggle to a civil rights movement for equal rights in Palestine" --- I'm not sure what that means. Israel is one sovereignty and Palestine is another. Is it reasonable for them to, in our lifetime, to come together when one is dedicated to the dismantlement of the other (possible but not probable in the current environment)?

The use of violence is simply inconsistent with the maintenance of international peace and security and for the development of Friendly relations and Co-operation.

I'm not sure what attributions you assign to the "Jewish Character."

But if the Arab Palestinian is not going to accept Israel and abandon the concept of "dismantlement," then it is not reasonable to assume that Israel will fall back to a defensive position (pre-'67 borders) that will allow the Hostile Arab Palestinian (Jihadist and Fedayeen) to freely move about and develop an huge terrorist insurgency on its borders. That simply will not benefit anyone.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

José_LA, et al,

1. Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.

2. Palestine - all of Palestine - is a land of Islamic and Arab affiliation, a blessed sacred land, that has a major portion in the heart of every Arab and Muslim

3. No recognition of the legitimacy of the occupation whatever; this is a principled position, political and moral, and therefore do not recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and recognition of "Israel" and the legitimacy of its presence on any part of Palestine no matter how long; nand it will not be long, God willing.

4. Liberation of Palestine is a national duty; it is the responsibility of the Palestinian people and the Arab and Islamic nation, it is also a humanitarian responsibility in accordance with the requirements of truth and justice.

5. Jihad and the armed resistance is the right and real method for the liberation of Palestine, and the restoration of all the rights, together with, of course, all forms of political and diplomatic struggle including in the media, public and legal [spheres]; with the need to mobilize all the energies of the nation in the battle.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

The Palestinians share the sentiments of virtually all other peoples of the world.

Why do you vilify them for being like everyone else?

Would you call the rest of the world terrorists?

 

[aris2chat]

Like a lot of newbies, rookie jumps to conclusions without all the facts.
If he really has any interest in a solution for both sides he will have a lot of reading ahead of him, not just news headlines, propaganda and highly bias blogs.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You must be kidding! I don't have to "vilify" HAMAS, they do it to themselves.

Hamas Robs Bank of Palestine 2014
Ten armed Hamas security men robbed a “Bank of Palestine” branch in the Rimael neighborhood of Gaza City on Wednesday, according to Khaled Abu Toameh. Fatah (Palestinian Authority) sources said the Hamas …Jewish Press · 9/18/2014

Hamas Allegedly Taxes Poor, Robs Banks To Fund Itself 2010
GAZA CITY, Gaza -- On a hot day in early April, men and school-age boys dig for stones and pieces of brick in the crumbling ruins of the Erez Industrial Zone. This former settlement housed Israeli and Palestinian textile, clothing and furniture factories ... In another apparent sign of financial trouble, Hamas policemen raided a local bank on March 29 and forcibly seized $270,000 from the account of a Hamas-affiliated charity. The account had been frozen by the Fatah-ruled Palestinian Authority.
The Huffington Post · 6/14/2010

Hamas robs Gaza City Bank of Palestine 2010
Hamas gunmen entered the Gaza City Bank of Palestine and at gunpoint forced employees to open the vault. After seizing about $400,000 dollars worth of cash, the gunmen left a receipt. The background to this story is that to comply with international ...Examiner · 3/31/2010​

José_LA, et al,

1. Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.

2. Palestine - all of Palestine - is a land of Islamic and Arab affiliation, a blessed sacred land, that has a major portion in the heart of every Arab and Muslim

3. No recognition of the legitimacy of the occupation whatever; this is a principled position, political and moral, and therefore do not recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and recognition of "Israel" and the legitimacy of its presence on any part of Palestine no matter how long; nand it will not be long, God willing.

4. Liberation of Palestine is a national duty; it is the responsibility of the Palestinian people and the Arab and Islamic nation, it is also a humanitarian responsibility in accordance with the requirements of truth and justice.

5. Jihad and the armed resistance is the right and real method for the liberation of Palestine, and the restoration of all the rights, together with, of course, all forms of political and diplomatic struggle including in the media, public and legal [spheres]; with the need to mobilize all the energies of the nation in the battle.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

The Palestinians share the sentiments of virtually all other peoples of the world.

Why do you vilify them for being like everyone else?

Would you call the rest of the world terrorists?

(COMMENT)

HAMAS is what it is.

Israel says it thwarted Hamas coup attempt on Palestinian President
By Lia Eustachewich
August 18, 2014 | 12:13pm
Israeli authorities busted a large-scale plot by Hamas groups in the West Bank to launch widespread terror attacks in Israel and topple the Palestinian Authority, the Shin Bet security intelligence agency announced Monday.
Israeli authorities busted a large-scale plot by Hamas groups in the West Bank to launch widespread terror attacks in Israel and topple the Palestinian Authority, the Shin Bet security intelligence agency announced Monday.

Hamas headquarters in Turkey, which organized the terror plot, hoped deadly violence would weaken Palestinian territories so that militants could carry out a coup and overthrow Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas, the Jerusalem Post reported.

“The terrorists planned to undermine security and launch a third intifada,” a senior Shin Bet source told the newspaper. “They planned to carry out a coup and topple the Palestinian Authority.”​

HAMAS is a criminal activity using terrorist tactic to achieve its objectives and to fund its activities. The rest of the world does kidnap and murder, bomb buses of tourists, suicide bombings, attack civilians, fire rockets and mortars, etc. No, you simply can't compare them to the rest of the world. Having said that, are their other similar activities elsewhere in the world? (Certainly) But that doesn't lend justification for what they do.

Do I "vilify" them? (No!) The record of past criminal behaviors and their establish history of terrorist activity speaks for itself. And they are proud of the deeds they perform.

Saleh Arouri (A Senior HAMAS Leader) told a conference in Turkey on Wednesday that Hamas's military wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, carried out what he described as a "heroic operation" with the broader goal of sparking a new Palestinian uprising.
​

The question you have to ask is: Are you proud of them?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You must be kidding! I don't have to "vilify" HAMAS, they do it to themselves.

Hamas robs Gaza City Bank of Palestine 2010
Hamas gunmen entered the Gaza City Bank of Palestine and at gunpoint forced employees to open the vault. After seizing about $400,000 dollars worth of cash, the gunmen left a receipt. The background to this story is that to comply with international ...Examiner · 3/31/2010​

Most Respectfully,
R

The deeper background to this story is that Israel transfers excise tax payments to the P.A., and the P.A. pays the civil servants of Gaza

Civil servants have the right to be paid. The illegal "PA" was withholding their pay.

It is good to see a government stand up for its people.

BTW, also in this article:

When Hamas overthrew P.A. rule in Gaza,...

Hadn't this clown heard of the elections? Hamas was the PA.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You must be kidding! I don't have to "vilify" HAMAS, they do it to themselves.

Hamas Robs Bank of Palestine 2014
Ten armed Hamas security men robbed a “Bank of Palestine” branch in the Rimael neighborhood of Gaza City on Wednesday, according to Khaled Abu Toameh. Fatah (Palestinian Authority) sources said the Hamas …Jewish Press · 9/18/2014

Hamas Allegedly Taxes Poor, Robs Banks To Fund Itself 2010
GAZA CITY, Gaza -- On a hot day in early April, men and school-age boys dig for stones and pieces of brick in the crumbling ruins of the Erez Industrial Zone. This former settlement housed Israeli and Palestinian textile, clothing and furniture factories ... In another apparent sign of financial trouble, Hamas policemen raided a local bank on March 29 and forcibly seized $270,000 from the account of a Hamas-affiliated charity. The account had been frozen by the Fatah-ruled Palestinian Authority.
The Huffington Post · 6/14/2010

Hamas robs Gaza City Bank of Palestine 2010
Hamas gunmen entered the Gaza City Bank of Palestine and at gunpoint forced employees to open the vault. After seizing about $400,000 dollars worth of cash, the gunmen left a receipt. The background to this story is that to comply with international ...Examiner · 3/31/2010​

José_LA, et al,

1. Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.

2. Palestine - all of Palestine - is a land of Islamic and Arab affiliation, a blessed sacred land, that has a major portion in the heart of every Arab and Muslim

3. No recognition of the legitimacy of the occupation whatever; this is a principled position, political and moral, and therefore do not recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and recognition of "Israel" and the legitimacy of its presence on any part of Palestine no matter how long; nand it will not be long, God willing.

4. Liberation of Palestine is a national duty; it is the responsibility of the Palestinian people and the Arab and Islamic nation, it is also a humanitarian responsibility in accordance with the requirements of truth and justice.

5. Jihad and the armed resistance is the right and real method for the liberation of Palestine, and the restoration of all the rights, together with, of course, all forms of political and diplomatic struggle including in the media, public and legal [spheres]; with the need to mobilize all the energies of the nation in the battle.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

The Palestinians share the sentiments of virtually all other peoples of the world.

Why do you vilify them for being like everyone else?

Would you call the rest of the world terrorists?

(COMMENT)

HAMAS is what it is.

Israel says it thwarted Hamas coup attempt on Palestinian President
By Lia Eustachewich
August 18, 2014 | 12:13pm
Israeli authorities busted a large-scale plot by Hamas groups in the West Bank to launch widespread terror attacks in Israel and topple the Palestinian Authority, the Shin Bet security intelligence agency announced Monday.
Israeli authorities busted a large-scale plot by Hamas groups in the West Bank to launch widespread terror attacks in Israel and topple the Palestinian Authority, the Shin Bet security intelligence agency announced Monday.

Hamas headquarters in Turkey, which organized the terror plot, hoped deadly violence would weaken Palestinian territories so that militants could carry out a coup and overthrow Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas, the Jerusalem Post reported.

“The terrorists planned to undermine security and launch a third intifada,” a senior Shin Bet source told the newspaper. “They planned to carry out a coup and topple the Palestinian Authority.”​

HAMAS is a criminal activity using terrorist tactic to achieve its objectives and to fund its activities. The rest of the world does kidnap and murder, bomb buses of tourists, suicide bombings, attack civilians, fire rockets and mortars, etc. No, you simply can't compare them to the rest of the world. Having said that, are their other similar activities elsewhere in the world? (Certainly) But that doesn't lend justification for what they do.

Do I "vilify" them? (No!) The record of past criminal behaviors and their establish history of terrorist activity speaks for itself. And they are proud of the deeds they perform.

Saleh Arouri (A Senior HAMAS Leader) told a conference in Turkey on Wednesday that Hamas's military wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, carried out what he described as a "heroic operation" with the broader goal of sparking a new Palestinian uprising.
​

The question you have to ask is: Are you proud of them?

Most Respectfully,
R

WOW, this is one of the most verbose deflections that I have ever seen!

What does this have to do with my post?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are deflecting.

WOW, this is one of the most verbose deflections that I have ever seen!

What does this have to do with my post?

(COMMENT)

You asked:

• Why do you vilify them for being like everyone else?
• Would you call the rest of the world terrorists?

I answered and addressed these exactly.

v/r
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are deflecting.

WOW, this is one of the most verbose deflections that I have ever seen!

What does this have to do with my post?

(COMMENT)

You asked:

• Why do you vilify them for being like everyone else?
• Would you call the rest of the world terrorists?

I answered and addressed these exactly.

v/r
R

You missed:

The Palestinians share the sentiments of virtually all other peoples of the world.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well actually that is not a question; it's a statement.

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are deflecting.

WOW, this is one of the most verbose deflections that I have ever seen!

What does this have to do with my post?

(COMMENT)

You asked:

• Why do you vilify them for being like everyone else?
• Would you call the rest of the world terrorists?

I answered and addressed these exactly.

v/r
R

You missed:

The Palestinians share the sentiments of virtually all other peoples of the world.

(COMMENT)

I'm not sure this is not some trick statement.

Of course Palestinians share some sentiments with the rest of the world. But does the rest of the world think that the indiscriminate rocket fire is morally correct? Does the rest of the world consider Bank Robbery the proper activity of a Government? Does the rest of the world share the sentiment that the Kidnapping and Murder of 3 students as a "heroic operation?"

They are terrorists!

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well actually that is not a question; it's a statement.

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are deflecting.

WOW, this is one of the most verbose deflections that I have ever seen!

What does this have to do with my post?

(COMMENT)

You asked:

• Why do you vilify them for being like everyone else?
• Would you call the rest of the world terrorists?

I answered and addressed these exactly.

v/r
R

You missed:

The Palestinians share the sentiments of virtually all other peoples of the world.

(COMMENT)

I'm not sure this is not some trick statement.

Of course Palestinians share some sentiments with the rest of the world. But does the rest of the world think that the indiscriminate rocket fire is morally correct? Does the rest of the world consider Bank Robbery the proper activity of a Government? Does the rest of the world share the sentiment that the Kidnapping and Murder of 3 students as a "heroic operation?"

They are terrorists!

Most Respectfully,
R

Let me be more specific. What other people in the world would allow the occupation and colonization of their country?

Give me some names.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think all the Axis Powers were occupied by the Allied Powers at one time or another. I believe the entire Middle East was occupied at one time or another.

Let me be more specific. What other people in the world would allow the occupation and colonization of their country?

Give me some names.

(COMMENT)

I believe the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were occupied by Arab States at one time (17 or 18 years). In fact the West Bank was annexed at one time with Palestinian approval.

But did you answer my questions?

Of course Palestinians share some sentiments with the rest of the world. But does the rest of the world think that the indiscriminate rocket fire is morally correct? Does the rest of the world consider Bank Robbery the proper activity of a Government? Does the rest of the world share the sentiment that the Kidnapping and Murder of 3 students as a "heroic operation?"​

I'm not sure what action you consider "colonization."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think all the Axis Powers were occupied by the Allied Powers at one time or another. I believe the entire Middle East was occupied at one time or another.

Let me be more specific. What other people in the world would allow the occupation and colonization of their country?

Give me some names.

(COMMENT)

I believe the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were occupied by Arab States at one time (17 or 18 years). In fact the West Bank was annexed at one time with Palestinian approval.

But did you answer my questions?

Of course Palestinians share some sentiments with the rest of the world. But does the rest of the world think that the indiscriminate rocket fire is morally correct? Does the rest of the world consider Bank Robbery the proper activity of a Government? Does the rest of the world share the sentiment that the Kidnapping and Murder of 3 students as a "heroic operation?"​

I'm not sure what action you consider "colonization."

Most Respectfully,
R

Drop in the bucket compared to Israel's crimes.

Besides, the Palestinians do the best they can with limited resources.

They are not the mooch capital of the world like Israel.

 

[aris2chat]

[
R

The deeper background to this story is that Israel transfers excise tax payments to the P.A., and the P.A. pays the civil servants of Gaza

Civil servants have the right to be paid. The illegal "PA" was withholding their pay.

It is good to see a government stand up for its people.

BTW, also in this article:

When Hamas overthrew P.A. rule in Gaza,...

Hadn't this clown heard of the elections? Hamas was the PA.[/QUOTE]


PA does pay their workers. Hamas wants the PA to give them money because the workers in Gaza have not gotten paid. Money was used for tunnels, weapons, pay to family for martyrdom, but no to workers or buying parts for infrastructure.

As for the elections, their were only carried out over an 8 yr period, after Oslo. Not long after hamas won so many seats, but not the popular vote, hamas fought against fatah in gaza forced most of the fatah members out. There was no unity till now and that is about to expire with no elections allowed by hamas yet.
Abbas has been trying to schedule elections in gaza. There were local elections in 2012 in the WB. Presidential elections were held in 2005 and parliamentary in 2006. 2007 hamas took control of gaza.

 

[Challenger]

...I thought I would enter these thoughts as a starting point for a serious discussion...

Good luck with that. In order for a serious discussion to occur, I for one, would have to accept the premise of your OP and the fallacies it contains.

 

[RoccoR]

@Challenger, et al,

An opposing view is welcome.

...I thought I would enter these thoughts as a starting point for a serious discussion...

Good luck with that. In order for a serious discussion to occur, I for one, would have to accept the premise of your OP and the fallacies it contains.

(COMMENT)

You are not required to accept any implied supposition associated with, or what you feel is embedded in, the opening opinion. You may challenge it in whole or in parts. That is the nature of the open and frank discussion. If you detect and expose a "fallacy" --- then feel free to carve it out for examination.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Challenger]

@Challenger, et al,

An opposing view is welcome.

...I thought I would enter these thoughts as a starting point for a serious discussion...

Good luck with that. In order for a serious discussion to occur, I for one, would have to accept the premise of your OP and the fallacies it contains.

(COMMENT)

You are not required to accept any implied supposition associated with, or what you feel is embedded in, the opening opinion. You may challenge it in whole or in parts. That is the nature of the open and frank discussion. If you detect and expose a "fallacy" --- then feel free to carve it out for examination.

Most Respectfully,
R

Tempting.

By responding, this thread goes into my "watch list" so when I get some time, I just might come back to you on this.