Guns. I'm just throwing my point of view out there. If I'm wrong then explain it to me.

[Markle]

true...but basic machine tools are cheaper and more readily available.

Ten years ago the TV I own today would cost $25,000 without the quality I have today for $1,300 two years ago.

One of the great things about profit and competition is the increase in quality and reduction in price.

Laws now about buying and selling guns will be outdated. Three-D printers will be far less expensive and be of far higher quality. There will be criminals making them in their back bedroom as they do meth today.

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

Yeah there's no "gun problem". We don't have James Holmses and Jared Loughners and Adam Lanzas at all. These are all staged in New Mexico.

What a self-delusional asshole. We are a gun-OBSESSED nation. We're a culture of violence and death and with it paramiliary cops. It's on every TV, in every movie theater (sometimes even live) and in every other medium. But we have "no gun problem". What a dipshit.

You do have a point that it's not comparable to drugs. Nobody takes a bag of coke into a movie theater and overdoses a bunch of strangers. So there's that.

The overwhelming majority of the law abiding citizens are obsessed about their Constitutional rights. Those mass killers you mentioned could have used bombs instead of guns. Timothy Mcveigh killed hundreds without firing a shot. The 9/11 hijackers killed thousands.

People who love the freedoms the Constitution afford us will not let the fears of people like yourself strip them from us.

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

Excuse the hell out of me. I voted for the republican party, sorry kids. I have seen the flip side of this, and guns people scare the holy hell out of me. And thugs with guns scare me even more, and this pro gun stuff just feeds into those bad actors in the shadows, the people you fear the most. If we just got rid off the damned things, most of you wouldn't be so damned paranoid about protecting yourselves, either.

The thugs will not hand over their weapons. As a law abiding citizen neither will I. If the Fed decides to criminalize firearms for those who follow the law then per the Founding fathers intent it is no longer a legitimate Government but a Tyrannical one.

 

[JBond]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

The right to bear arms is a constitutional right, period.

The real problem is crime, and the people that commit violent crimes and "gun crimes". Most of the time they are repeat offenders, and people that have shown a history of violence. Our real problem is the "thug culture", and a justice system that lets them off the hook all too often and puts thugs right back on the streets. The solution is much stricter sentencing for violent crimes, we need to keep them locked up most of their adult lives. We need to build bigger prisons and keep them all locked up. We also need to keep mentally ill that have a tendency towards violence closely monitored and the dangerous ones in mental hospitals. Also crack down on illegal immigration since many gang bangers are illegals.

I think you are missing a HUGE part of the "problem" as well. And that is:

"Why are there so many turning to crime in the first place?"

Locking them up, will do nothing to solve that. It will only serve to put more people in jail. Figure out the "why" and solve that, the rest becomes much easier to manage, if not "solve" all together.

I blame men. In particular, those that refuse to behave as men. Things like multiple kids from multiple women, refusal to work jobs they are qualified for, abusing drugs and alcohol, and a general attitude of indifference towards others.

Unfortunately, the government has created for themselves a system the glorifies this behavior by urging people to look to government for the answers to their self-created issues (and buying votes with meager handouts in the process). Many men have a feeling of entitlement (at the expense of taxpayers), and the government encourages this misguided behavior.

We could redistribute every dollar earned by the taxpayers and it would still be insufficient, because the takers will outnumber the producers and eventually the government will run out of other people's money. See Greece or Venezuela as very recent modern day examples.

The "lock them up" has some appeal after the success the GOP had working with Bill Clinton. Crime dropped dramatically in the mid 90's and it started with removing the most violent/dangerous criminals from society and ensuring they can do no more harm.

 

[Confounding]

Excuse the hell out of me. I voted for the republican party, sorry kids. I have seen the flip side of this, and guns people scare the holy hell out of me. And thugs with guns scare me even more, and this pro gun stuff just feeds into those bad actors in the shadows, the people you fear the most. If we just got rid off the damned things, most of you wouldn't be so damned paranoid about protecting yourselves, either.

I'm more afraid of the people trying to take our rights away. In such a pivotal moment in history it's important to stand up and loudly protest injustice.

 

[Skull Pilot]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

The right to bear arms is a constitutional right, period.

The real problem is crime, and the people that commit violent crimes and "gun crimes". Most of the time they are repeat offenders, and people that have shown a history of violence. Our real problem is the "thug culture", and a justice system that lets them off the hook all too often and puts thugs right back on the streets. The solution is much stricter sentencing for violent crimes, we need to keep them locked up most of their adult lives. We need to build bigger prisons and keep them all locked up. We also need to keep mentally ill that have a tendency towards violence closely monitored and the dangerous ones in mental hospitals. Also crack down on illegal immigration since many gang bangers are illegals.

there really is no drug problem either

Despite the trillions spent and the lives lost in the so called war on drugs, drug use in the population is about the same as it always was.

IMO the only gun control we need to implement should be directed at those who commit crimes with guns. All crimes committed while in possession of a firearm whether or not that firearm was drawn should be subject to stiff mandatory penalties to be served without parole

 

[Skull Pilot]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

The right to bear arms is a constitutional right, period.

The real problem is crime, and the people that commit violent crimes and "gun crimes". Most of the time they are repeat offenders, and people that have shown a history of violence. Our real problem is the "thug culture", and a justice system that lets them off the hook all too often and puts thugs right back on the streets. The solution is much stricter sentencing for violent crimes, we need to keep them locked up most of their adult lives. We need to build bigger prisons and keep them all locked up. We also need to keep mentally ill that have a tendency towards violence closely monitored and the dangerous ones in mental hospitals. Also crack down on illegal immigration since many gang bangers are illegals.

I think you are missing a HUGE part of the "problem" as well. And that is:

"Why are there so many turning to crime in the first place?"

Locking them up, will do nothing to solve that. It will only serve to put more people in jail. Figure out the "why" and solve that, the rest becomes much easier to manage, if not "solve" all together.

People turn to crime because they choose to. There are consequences for that choice

 

[Skull Pilot]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

Yeah there's no "gun problem". We don't have James Holmses and Jared Loughners and Adam Lanzas at all. These are all staged in New Mexico.

What a self-delusional asshole. We are a gun-OBSESSED nation. We're a culture of violence and death and with it paramiliary cops. It's on every TV, in every movie theater (sometimes even live) and in every other medium. But we have "no gun problem". What a dipshit.

You do have a point that it's not comparable to drugs. Nobody takes a bag of coke into a movie theater and overdoses a bunch of strangers. So there's that.

if we were gun obsessed then more people would own guns.

and if we are a culture of violence why is violent crime of any type steadily decreasing?

And guns are not the problem. The problem is the behavior of an extremely small percentage of the population.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Except, that you should consider incorporating the Constitutional aspect and the historical aspects into your reasoning as well.

The left has very little loyalty to the constitution as written. When you tell the left wing..."but the constitution says..." I honestly believe most of them roll their eyes. I think most conservatives know that. That's why I made my argument elsewhere.

The right wipes their ass with with the constitution OTHER than the 2nd . Don't think so? Just ask them about state issued voter ID and watch them pull a 180 on people's con rights .

We have a probleM with crazy and criminals getting guns . All guns are born "legal" Gun nut states make it too easy for them to fall into the illega market . So easy that even teenagers can score an illegal gun. So you are right about the supply .

I don't see how obtaining a free ID is restricting anyone's rights.

I however had to shell out hundreds of dollars, drive halfway across the state and get fingerprinted like a common criminal to get a CCW permit

 

[Skull Pilot]

Have you bothered to find out the "why"?

People turn to crime because they are desperate and lack better options.

people turn to crime because they choose to

 

[frigidweirdo]

I've always viewed the gun problem similarly to the way I view the drug problem. It's an unfortunate situation that is only made more unfortunate when you make the people that want to use these things criminals for doing so. Supply and demand exists regardless of what the law has to say about it. If the consumer wants something bad enough and is willing to pay the price, somebody is willing to break the law to make money from that demand. You will never stop the movement and sale of drugs and guns. All the law can decide is who will make money off that demand. It's either going to be legitimate businesses that employ people and pay taxes, or dangerous and unregulated black market dealers. It seems to me that the only intelligent thing to do is to not make these things illegal so we can at least maintain some control. That comes with its own set of issues to overcome, but I adamantly believe that it's a clear cut greater good kind of situation.

But then again, in other countries, guns aren't so much of a problem.

 

[Skull Pilot]

You do have a point that it's not comparable to drugs.

It's comparable to drugs because in both situations it's completely ineffective to make them illegal for a very similar reason. It's not about how we feel about it, or what would be ideal. It's about what works and what is practical. It's about reality.

The majority of illegal guns used to commit crimes were originally purchased legally by someone else. They get stolen, or traded/sold without a required background check, and end up in criminal hands.
The idea behind strictly cutting back on gun ownership is that the criminals aren't going to have access to guns as easily either, because the guns aren't available to steal. Over time, as possession of an illegal weapon is enforced, criminals will have to do what they do in England, and carry a knife. Even the terrorists there have trouble getting their hands on guns. Using machetes and vans. So it definitely works.
Getting stabbed sucks, but it's a lot harder work for the killer and it doesn't usually result in as many deaths as a shooting. It's harm reduction, not harm elimination.

SO you are in favor of restricting law abiding people in order to prevent crime?

Why stop with guns? Why not random home searches just in case someone is doing something criminal?
Why not chemically neuter all men so some men won't commit rape?
Why not take all children away from their parents so that some parents won't abuse their kids?

You cannot hold law abiding people responsible for criminal behavior. Period.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I've always viewed the gun problem similarly to the way I view the drug problem. It's an unfortunate situation that is only made more unfortunate when you make the people that want to use these things criminals for doing so. Supply and demand exists regardless of what the law has to say about it. If the consumer wants something bad enough and is willing to pay the price, somebody is willing to break the law to make money from that demand. You will never stop the movement and sale of drugs and guns. All the law can decide is who will make money off that demand. It's either going to be legitimate businesses that employ people and pay taxes, or dangerous and unregulated black market dealers. It seems to me that the only intelligent thing to do is to not make these things illegal so we can at least maintain some control. That comes with its own set of issues to overcome, but I adamantly believe that it's a clear cut greater good kind of situation.

But then again, in other countries, guns aren't so much of a problem.

Guns are not a problem here either
The behavior of criminals is the problem

 

[Skull Pilot]

You do have a point that it's not comparable to drugs.

It's comparable to drugs because in both situations it's completely ineffective to make them illegal for a very similar reason. It's not about how we feel about it, or what would be ideal. It's about what works and what is practical. It's about reality.

The majority of illegal guns used to commit crimes were originally purchased legally by someone else. They get stolen, or traded/sold without a required background check, and end up in criminal hands.
The idea behind strictly cutting back on gun ownership is that the criminals aren't going to have access to guns as easily either, because the guns aren't available to steal. Over time, as possession of an illegal weapon is enforced, criminals will have to do what they do in England, and carry a knife. Even the terrorists there have trouble getting their hands on guns. Using machetes and vans. So it definitely works.
Getting stabbed sucks, but it's a lot harder work for the killer and it doesn't usually result in as many deaths as a shooting. It's harm reduction, not harm elimination.

Wrong. As evidenced by the fact that Norway and Paris have had two mass shootings that killed more people than all of our mass shootings combined over the last 20 years, the simple fact is that we have a more violent population than exists in Europe. We have black and Hispanic gangs here that don't exist in Europe. However, as Europe welcomes in the violent middle easterners, their violent crime rates have been skyrocketing.

It is not the tool, it is the person using the tool that determines how it will be used.

I've been in this discussion so many times now that no matter what reply I offer, I know exactly what I will get back as a response. No sense, is there?
Open your eyes, Westwall, and stop making excuses. Pogo has a point that not just gun laws will "fix" the problem; a many pronged approach is necessary to stop the gun violence in this country. It is not just in the inner cities, but even if it were, is it any less important because of that? Can we just dismiss it as "not counting?"
Anyway, don't bother replying. I've heard it before, as you've heard this before. It's all part of the liturgy, the communal responses.

no it's not just the inner cities but 70% or so of it IS in the inner cities

 

[Skull Pilot]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

The right to bear arms is a constitutional right, period.

The real problem is crime, and the people that commit violent crimes and "gun crimes". Most of the time they are repeat offenders, and people that have shown a history of violence. Our real problem is the "thug culture", and a justice system that lets them off the hook all too often and puts thugs right back on the streets. The solution is much stricter sentencing for violent crimes, we need to keep them locked up most of their adult lives. We need to build bigger prisons and keep them all locked up. We also need to keep mentally ill that have a tendency towards violence closely monitored and the dangerous ones in mental hospitals. Also crack down on illegal immigration since many gang bangers are illegals.

I think you are missing a HUGE part of the "problem" as well. And that is:

"Why are there so many turning to crime in the first place?"

Locking them up, will do nothing to solve that. It will only serve to put more people in jail. Figure out the "why" and solve that, the rest becomes much easier to manage, if not "solve" all together.

The majority of violent crime perps are blacks and Latinos. You may want to look there and ask them why they turn to crime. As I said the real problem is the "thug culture", which includes TV and music, etc. sensationalizing such violence. Some people may just be too dumb to separate fiction from real life.

But the answer is most definitely to increase prison sentences. Keeping thugs off the streets prevents them from committing more crime. We also need the death penalty for crimes like murder and rape standard.

Yeah, because increasing the prison population has worked so well. Wait, no it hasn't. It's expensive, and it is less effective in reducing repeat offenders. In fact, it just about guarantees that there will be repeat offenders.

But you won't listen, and you won't think, so you won't learn. You can lead them to water, but if you don't hold their hand they'll fall in and drown.

We haven't t increased prison capacity, we've let thugs go on parole only to see them slaughter people again.

We should be executing most convicted murderers to make room for other criminals and save on tax dollars. Of course we need to end the idiotic death row system we have now that automatically appeals them and wastes decades, tax money, and delays justice for the victims.

we should not be incarcerating non-violent offenders and we should be incarcerating violent criminals for very long sentences to be served with no parole

 

[Skull Pilot]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

The right to bear arms is a constitutional right, period.

The real problem is crime, and the people that commit violent crimes and "gun crimes". Most of the time they are repeat offenders, and people that have shown a history of violence. Our real problem is the "thug culture", and a justice system that lets them off the hook all too often and puts thugs right back on the streets. The solution is much stricter sentencing for violent crimes, we need to keep them locked up most of their adult lives. We need to build bigger prisons and keep them all locked up. We also need to keep mentally ill that have a tendency towards violence closely monitored and the dangerous ones in mental hospitals. Also crack down on illegal immigration since many gang bangers are illegals.

I think you are missing a HUGE part of the "problem" as well. And that is:

"Why are there so many turning to crime in the first place?"

Locking them up, will do nothing to solve that. It will only serve to put more people in jail. Figure out the "why" and solve that, the rest becomes much easier to manage, if not "solve" all together.

The majority of violent crime perps are blacks and Latinos. You may want to look there and ask them why they turn to crime. As I said the real problem is the "thug culture", which includes TV and music, etc. sensationalizing such violence. Some people may just be too dumb to separate fiction from real life.

But the answer is most definitely to increase prison sentences. Keeping thugs off the streets prevents them from committing more crime. We also need the death penalty for crimes like murder and rape standard.

Yeah, because increasing the prison population has worked so well. Wait, no it hasn't. It's expensive, and it is less effective in reducing repeat offenders. In fact, it just about guarantees that there will be repeat offenders.

But you won't listen, and you won't think, so you won't learn. You can lead them to water, but if you don't hold their hand they'll fall in and drown.

We haven't t increased prison capacity, we've let thugs go on parole only to see them slaughter people again.

We should be executing most convicted murderers to make room for other criminals and save on tax dollars. Of course we need to end the idiotic death row system we have now that automatically appeals them and wastes decades, tax money, and delays justice for the victims.

And those falsely convicted and sentenced to death for crimes they did not commit? What happens to them in your rush to persecute someone?

Let's be honest. When someone gets out of prison they are not encouraged to rejoin society, they are prohibited. They are prohibited from regaining many of their rights including the right to vote in many states. They can't get many jobs, including what would be called skilled labor jobs because they have a conviction. So the best they can hope for is a construction job, providing that the job site is not for any Government group or contract. Or some minimum wage job. So they have little choice but to return to crime.

We know that Minimum wage jobs are not intended to pay a living wage. We know the jobs are intended to be a start to the work experience, a first block in your job history. But for those who can't move up the ladder because the ladder is closed off what then?

That's the problem with your punish everyone mentality. We've been using it for years, it isn't really working. Repeat offenders become repeat offenders because we warehouse them and minor criminals come out of prison as major criminals. No chance to move on after paying their debts.

The system is completely broken, and it isn't that the system is too lienient, it's that the puritan mentality is still too prevalent. I could site examples but you would denounce them and stomp your foot and demand more flesh from the crims.

Gee the poor babies.

If you don't want to be rejected by society after you get out of prison then don't get sent to prison in the first place.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I've always viewed the gun problem similarly to the way I view the drug problem. It's an unfortunate situation that is only made more unfortunate when you make the people that want to use these things criminals for doing so. Supply and demand exists regardless of what the law has to say about it. If the consumer wants something bad enough and is willing to pay the price, somebody is willing to break the law to make money from that demand. You will never stop the movement and sale of drugs and guns. All the law can decide is who will make money off that demand. It's either going to be legitimate businesses that employ people and pay taxes, or dangerous and unregulated black market dealers. It seems to me that the only intelligent thing to do is to not make these things illegal so we can at least maintain some control. That comes with its own set of issues to overcome, but I adamantly believe that it's a clear cut greater good kind of situation.

But then again, in other countries, guns aren't so much of a problem.

Guns are not a problem here either
The behavior of criminals is the problem

And again, are you going to ignore the reasons why criminals behave like this? Or why they become criminals in the first place?

Let's see.... the right says that putting people in prison stops crime, and yet the highest prison population in the US has the highest murder rate and one of the highest crime rates.....

For example St Louis has the highest violent crime rate in the US.

2010-2011 graduation rates for area districts in Missouri

There is one school district, Normandy, with a 57.8% high school graduation rate.
St. Louis Public schools is at 52.6%.

Normandy has a crime rate index of 18, 100 is the safest. I'm assuming 18 isn't great.

Normandy crime rates and statistics - NeighborhoodScout

Violent crime is 6.03 per 100,000. The Missouri average is 4.97, 2 murders, one rape, 8 robbery, 19 assaults, and that's from a population of 5,000 people.

The murder rate in Normandy is 8 times the US average, robbery is 50% higher, assault is higher too. What a surprise.

 

[PredFan]

I've always viewed the gun problem similarly to the way I view the drug problem. It's an unfortunate situation that is only made more unfortunate when you make the people that want to use these things criminals for doing so. Supply and demand exists regardless of what the law has to say about it. If the consumer wants something bad enough and is willing to pay the price, somebody is willing to break the law to make money from that demand. You will never stop the movement and sale of drugs and guns. All the law can decide is who will make money off that demand. It's either going to be legitimate businesses that employ people and pay taxes, or dangerous and unregulated black market dealers. It seems to me that the only intelligent thing to do is to not make these things illegal so we can at least maintain some control. That comes with its own set of issues to overcome, but I adamantly believe that it's a clear cut greater good kind of situation.

That is all fine and good except you failed to place the blame on the violence in our society and instead just went off of assuming the gun is the problem. The gun is not the problem, has never been the problem, and any discussion that doesn't first recognize that fact, is dead in the water.

 

[Confounding]

I've always viewed the gun problem similarly to the way I view the drug problem. It's an unfortunate situation that is only made more unfortunate when you make the people that want to use these things criminals for doing so. Supply and demand exists regardless of what the law has to say about it. If the consumer wants something bad enough and is willing to pay the price, somebody is willing to break the law to make money from that demand. You will never stop the movement and sale of drugs and guns. All the law can decide is who will make money off that demand. It's either going to be legitimate businesses that employ people and pay taxes, or dangerous and unregulated black market dealers. It seems to me that the only intelligent thing to do is to not make these things illegal so we can at least maintain some control. That comes with its own set of issues to overcome, but I adamantly believe that it's a clear cut greater good kind of situation.

That is all fine and good except you failed to place the blame on the violence in our society and instead just went off of assuming the gun is the problem. The gun is not the problem, has never been the problem, and any discussion that doesn't first recognize that fact, is dead in the water.

Perhaps I should have said "gun controversy." I agree with your sentiment.

 

[2aguy]

I've always viewed the gun problem similarly to the way I view the drug problem. It's an unfortunate situation that is only made more unfortunate when you make the people that want to use these things criminals for doing so. Supply and demand exists regardless of what the law has to say about it. If the consumer wants something bad enough and is willing to pay the price, somebody is willing to break the law to make money from that demand. You will never stop the movement and sale of drugs and guns. All the law can decide is who will make money off that demand. It's either going to be legitimate businesses that employ people and pay taxes, or dangerous and unregulated black market dealers. It seems to me that the only intelligent thing to do is to not make these things illegal so we can at least maintain some control. That comes with its own set of issues to overcome, but I adamantly believe that it's a clear cut greater good kind of situation.

But then again, in other countries, guns aren't so much of a problem.

Because their criminals don't use them to commit murder.....Britain, gun crime is up 42%....20 years after they banned and confiscated them....Australia, same thing, gun crime is going up, after the ban...Melbourne, Australia is so bad they now call it the City of the Gun.....they have imported violent people to their countries...and they are using guns to commit crimes