Gun ownership rights are under attack.

[Missourian]

I think that most of those guns in switzerland has are rusting away in closets.

What do you think most guns in the U.S. are doing?

There are 250 million privately owned firearms in the U.S.

right but citizens are not given the firearms by their military.

the average swiss citizen has how many guns?

The average American has how many guns?
I have over 20 myself.

According to the results from the 2004 national firearms survey the average among firearm owners is five operational firearms.

The US gun stock: results from the 2004 national firearms survey
​

Interesting to read peer reviewed paper.

 

[Momma]

52nd -



Last year 18 people died on gun shot wounds in Austria. More than 10,000 died in the US - so which country has more effective laws?

Well considering Austria's population is only around 8.3 million, compared to our over 300 million.....I would say that they're in the same fucking boat.

And besides..........Guns don't kill people you retard, people kill people.

And if anyone ever tries to take my guns....it will be the last thing that they do. They are there to protect my family and our rights. And our kids????....Our kids know both the good and the bad. They know how to use them and how to be responsible with them. They are there for defense and for food....and a little fun with target practice. They are responsible and so are we.

But that's what good country living will do for a child, in my opinion.

 

[uscitizen]

What do you think most guns in the U.S. are doing?

There are 250 million privately owned firearms in the U.S.

right but citizens are not given the firearms by their military.

the average swiss citizen has how many guns?

The average American has how many guns?
I have over 20 myself.

According to the results from the 2004 national firearms survey the average among firearm owners is five operational firearms.

The US gun stock: results from the 2004 national firearms survey
​

Interesting to read peer reviewed paper.

the point I was getting at is what % of the population of the Swiss are gun owners vs the US % of gun owners. And does swiss military policy have anything to to do with that?
In other words how many swiss only have the gun the military issued to them?

 

[Momma]

I think that most of those guns in switzerland has are rusting away in closets.

What do you think most guns in the U.S. are doing?

There are 250 million privately owned firearms in the U.S.

Hopefully they are being well munitioned.

 

[Missourian]

right but citizens are not given the firearms by their military.

the average swiss citizen has how many guns?

The average American has how many guns?
I have over 20 myself.

According to the results from the 2004 national firearms survey the average among firearm owners is five operational firearms.

The US gun stock: results from the 2004 national firearms survey
​

Interesting to read peer reviewed paper.

the point I was getting at is what % of the population of the Swiss are gun owners vs the US % of gun owners. And does swiss military policy have anything to to do with that?
In other words how many swiss only have the gun the military issued to them?

When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment. In this case of retention, the rifle is sent to the weapons factory where the fully automatic function is removed; the rifle is then returned to the discharged owner. The rifle is then a semi-automatic or self-loading rifle.


The government sponsors training with rifles and shooting in competitions for interested adolescents, both male and female.
The sale of ammunition – including Gw Pat.90 rounds for army-issue assault rifles – is subsidized by the Swiss government and made available at the many shooting ranges patronized by both private citizens and members of the militia.

In some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 assault rifles stored at private homes, mostly SIG SG 550 types. Additionally, there are some 320,000 assault rifles and military pistols exempted from military service in private possession, all selective-fire weapons having been converted to semi-automatic operation only. In addition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic small arms classified as carbines. The total number of firearms in private homes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million.<sup id="cite_ref-8" class="reference">[9]


The population of Switzerland in 2001 was approximately 7 million.
</sup>

Gun politics in Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


​

 

[The Rabbi]

I think that most of those guns in switzerland has are rusting away in closets.

What do you think most guns in the U.S. are doing?

There are 250 million privately owned firearms in the U.S.

Hopefully they are being well munitioned.

Momma, is that a Saiga 12ga shotgun in your avatar?

 

[Sodafin]

Where does Switzerland rate?

Switzerland is the exception to the rule, and a unique example.

The reason for this is that even though gun ownership in Switzerland is high, the guns are not generally in use. They are given to people coming through compulsory military service whether they want them or not, and many of them lock them away and never use them at all.

When we rank the Top 20 western countries by gun ownership, and cross reference that with the Top 20 countries in gun homicide - we get a match in 18 or 19 out of those 20. Switzerland is the one that doesn't fit the pattern.

 

[The Rabbi]

Where does Switzerland rate?

Switzerland is the exception to the rule, and a unique example.

The reason for this is that even though gun ownership in Switzerland is high, the guns are not generally in use. They are given to people coming through compulsory military service whether they want them or not, and many of them lock them away and never use them at all.

When we rank the Top 20 western countries by gun ownership, and cross reference that with the Top 20 countries in gun homicide - we get a match in 18 or 19 out of those 20. Switzerland is the one that doesn't fit the pattern.

Lying again? Switzerland has a big tradition of public shooting ranges. I am told it is nothing to see a guy on a motorcycle with a full auto rifle strapped to his back on his way to the range.
Again, it is culture, not laws that make for differences in crimes. So.Africa has very strict gun laws. So does Mexico. And the crime rate is considerably higher than the U.S.

 

[Sodafin]

So.Africa has very strict gun laws. So does Mexico. And the crime rate is considerably higher than the U.S.

I don't think any honest and objective person would suggest the US can be easily compared with either South Africa or Mexico - neither of which are westernized countries, both of which are ravaged by gun crimes and mafia, and both of which have massive stockpiled and illegally imported weapons.

Compare the US as any honest person would - with Canada, France, Germany, Australia, England or Japan - and the pattern is clear and beyond any reasonable doubt.

You know it. I know it - so why deny it?

 

[The Rabbi]

So.Africa has very strict gun laws. So does Mexico. And the crime rate is considerably higher than the U.S.

I don't think any honest and objective person would suggest the US can be easily compared with either South Africa or Mexico - neither of which are westernized countries, both of which are ravaged by gun crimes and mafia, and both of which have massive stockpiled and illegally imported weapons.

Compare the US as any honest person would - with Canada, France, Germany, Australia, England or Japan - and the pattern is clear and beyond any reasonable doubt.

You know it. I know it - so why deny it?

So you are saying that culture is more a defining characteristic in gun violence than laws in place?
Good. I knew you would come around to my view at the end.

 

[Sodafin]

No, not at all, I am saying that gun violence is linked to half a dozen key factors, of which gun ownership appears to be the most important.

If you want to play games and compare the USA with Afghanistan go right ahead, but if you actually want to understand this issue, you'll need a more sensible approach.

Rank the Top 20 western nations by gun ownership.

Rank the Top 20 western countries by homicide.

That is your result.

 

[The Rabbi]

No, not at all, I am saying that gun violence is linked to half a dozen key factors, of which gun ownership appears to be the most important.

If you want to play games and compare the USA with Afghanistan go right ahead, but if you actually want to understand this issue, you'll need a more sensible approach.

Rank the Top 20 western nations by gun ownership.

Rank the Top 20 western countries by homicide.

That is your result.

Yet you cannot explain anomalies like Switzerland and South Africa. But I can. I would say I win this debate.

 

[Sodafin]

Yet you cannot explain anomalies like Switzerland and South Africa. But I can. I would say I win this debate.

Come on, Rabbi - step up to the plate!!

At least try and debate the issue.

I already explained that the Top 20 western countries by gun ownership correlate to the Top 20 countries by homicide rate in 18 of 19 cases out of 20.

I have explained that Switzerland is the ONLY exception, and I have explained why.

At least try and present a case to suggest otherwise.

 

[The Rabbi]

Yet you cannot explain anomalies like Switzerland and South Africa. But I can. I would say I win this debate.

Come on, Rabbi - step up to the plate!!

At least try and debate the issue.

I already explained that the Top 20 western countries by gun ownership correlate to the Top 20 countries by homicide rate in 18 of 19 cases out of 20.

I have explained that Switzerland is the ONLY exception, and I have explained why.

At least try and present a case to suggest otherwise.

Switzerland is not the only exception. Mexico adn South Africa are exceptions as well, on the other side. Both countries have strict tough gun laws and both have high rates of crimes involving guns. There is no correlation between gun ownership and crime. There is a correlation between culture and crime, one you've admitted already.

 

[Sodafin]

So when we look at an example which shows 95% correlation, you do not consider that correlation to be significant?

Is that your point?

 

[The Rabbi]

So when we look at an example which shows 95% correlation, you do not consider that correlation to be significant?

Is that your point?

Correlation doesn't equal causation. And there are enough other factors that will better explain the circumstances.

 

[Sodafin]

No, not at all - the statistics make no sense at all unless we include the number of guns in society as a factor.

There are a number of factors which seem to influence homicide rates:

1) high possession of firearms vs low possession of firearms
2) urbanisation vs rural community
3) high incidence of organised crime, drug trafficking, mafia etc
4) economic development & political stability.

For 3), let's remove countries known for organised crime, such as Mexico, Estonia, Russia, Ukraine, Colombia etc.

For 4) let's remove any war zones or places close to them, such as most of Africa and the Third World.

2) is quite clear (guns in rural areas tend to be used more safely than those in cities) but can't easily be removed from studies - although it can be taken into consideration if we compare an urbanized society or a society with large urban areas (Japan) with a more rural one (New Zealand).

What this leaves us with is a grouping of some 30 - 40 or so economically developed societies, all with significant urban areas.

These societies: US, Switzerland, France, Finland, Greece, Canada, Sweden, Austria, Germany, New Zealand, Australia, UK.

are the highest in terms of gun ownership.

These societies: US, Portugal, Switzerland, Finland, UK, New Zealand, Canada, France, Belgium, Spain, Austria, Australia, Italy, Greece, Germany, Sweden.

are the highest in terms of homicide

There is a VERY CLEAR and obvious correlation between these sets of figures, with only Portugal and to a lesser extent Belgium not matching the trend.

The US, for instance, is highest in terms of gun ownership, and highest in terms of homicide. Finland is 4th highest in terms of gun ownership, and 4th highest in terms of homicide. Denmark has extremely low gun ownership, and extremely low homicide rates.

If we balance for urbanisation, the trends become even closer.

If you can explain this in any way which suggests that gun possession is NOT linked to homicide rates - go right ahead.

 

[Full-Auto]

No, not at all - the statistics make no sense at all unless we include the number of guns in society as a factor.

There are a number of factors which seem to influence homicide rates:

1) high possession of firearms vs low possession of firearms
2) urbanisation vs rural community
3) high incidence of organised crime, drug trafficking, mafia etc
4) economic development & political stability.

For 3), let's remove countries known for organised crime, such as Mexico, Estonia, Russia, Ukraine, Colombia etc.

For 4) let's remove any war zones or places close to them, such as most of Africa and the Third World.

2) is quite clear (guns in rural areas tend to be used more safely than those in cities) but can't easily be removed from studies - although it can be taken into consideration if we compare an urbanized society or a society with large urban areas (Japan) with a more rural one (New Zealand).

What this leaves us with is a grouping of some 30 - 40 or so economically developed societies, all with significant urban areas.

These societies: US, Switzerland, France, Finland, Greece, Canada, Sweden, Austria, Germany, New Zealand, Australia, UK.

are the highest in terms of gun ownership.

These societies: US, Portugal, Switzerland, Finland, UK, New Zealand, Canada, France, Belgium, Spain, Austria, Australia, Italy, Greece, Germany, Sweden.

are the highest in terms of homicide

There is a VERY CLEAR and obvious correlation between these sets of figures, with only Portugal and to a lesser extent Belgium not matching the trend.

The US, for instance, is highest in terms of gun ownership, and highest in terms of homicide. Finland is 4th highest in terms of gun ownership, and 4th highest in terms of homicide. Denmark has extremely low gun ownership, and extremely low homicide rates.

If we balance for urbanisation, the trends become even closer.

If you can explain this in any way which suggests that gun possession is NOT linked to homicide rates - go right ahead.

Having gone through the posts, I must go back to one you posted at the beginning.

Would you please point out the right of safety in the bill of rights. ( the bill of rights is a seperate debate on its intent) There isnt one. Now lets bring in some very fresh evidence.

DC just experienced its lowest homicide rate since 1966. What changed? DC vs Kellar.
AS A LICENSED ARMS COLLECTOR of military weapons and others, I own all the bad ones. High powered rifles, handguns and a variety of automatic weapons. ( you see my avatar )

How have I treatened your safety? I used to hunt behind a grade school when it was in session. They never went into lock down. Personally you seem to exert unreasonable fear. Please bring your material, I look very forward to the debate.

 

[logical4u]

So you think curtailing the civil rights of law abiding citizens is somehow worthwhile? Noted.

No, not at all - you completely misinterpreted my post.

My point is about safeguarding and protecting the civil rights on normal Americans.

For instance - the right to go to school in safety. The right to go to work in safety. The right to walk down the street in safety.

Those are rights worth protecting, no?

so if your daughter is driving through a rough part of the country at night with her cell phone (no guarentee of coverage) and breaks down, a car full of men pulls up behind her, what would make you feel better about her protection: a policeman several minutes away, a 357 in her purse?

If your son was walking down the street and a rabid dog comes after him, what would make you feel safer, a policeman several minutes away or a neighbor with a rifle that would dispatch the dog, and save your son?

If thugs are breaking into "your" home, what would make you feel safer: a policeman several minutes away or the sound of your pump shotgun being loaded (BTW, that sound scares the hell out of crimminals)?

 

[Sodafin]

Full-Auto -

you have a great handle and avatar for this thread!!

I agree that there is no mention of safety in most legal statutes - but there are many references to safety in international treaties such as those upon which organisations such as UNICEF are based, particularly in relation to children. In many cases the US is a signatory to those treaties.

That said, the greater issue with safety as a right is less one of law than of basic human rights. Let's assume we all believe no child should ever die by violence - current US gun laws do not adequately protect children, and we know this when we look at the numbers of children who die each year. I agree guns are not the only cause of death - but they are one big enough that to refuse to discuss the issue seems disingenuous.

My other point here is that statistics tell us that homes which contain weapons are more likely to be the scene of a homicide than other homes - and by a factor of three (Kellerman & Harvard School of Public Health both confirm this).

Hence, anyone entering your home is entering an area of increased risk of homicide, statistically speaking.