Gov. Christie's Plan to Scrap Teacher Tenure

[RetiredGySgt]

Gov. Chris Christie, who wants to scrap teacher tenure, today said he would like a system that reviews teacher performance every five years.

Christie suggested placing teachers on five-year contracts. When a contract expires, the teacher’s performance would be reviewed and decision would be made whether to renew for another five years, he said today at a town hall meeting in Paramus.

Gov. Christie pushes five-year performance review for teachers | NJ.com

Good idea?

Irrelevant.

k-12 tenure seldom means what most people think it means.

Ok since we are talking SPECIFICALLY about New Jersey enlighten us what Tenure for K-12 means IN New Jersey.

 

[chanel]

You have a point RGS. It is very difficult to fire a teacher in NJ. But districts have other ways to get rid of bad teachers. It is not difficult for a principal to force someone to quit. Happens all the time.

 

[editec]

Good idea?

Irrelevant.

k-12 tenure seldom means what most people think it means.

Ok since we are talking SPECIFICALLY about New Jersey enlighten us what Tenure for K-12 means IN New Jersey.

No you show ME what it means. You guys are the people advancing the MYTH that k-12 teachers are impossible to fire, not me

I DEFY you or anybody on this board to show me any contract for k-12 teachers in the State of New Jersey that gives any teacher a LIFETIME JOB.

Not one of you will do it because there is no such clause in any teachers' contract I have ever seen.

Find me just ONE, please.

1. CENTRAL FALLS, R.I. – The teachers at Central Falls High School struck a deal to get their jobs back last year after the entire staff was fired in a radical, last-ditch attempt to raise student performance. But if the administrators thought the teachers would be grateful for a second chance, they were wrong.

Now if the ABOVE doesn't tip you off, really, what the hell will?

 

[Jackson]

Show me a teachers contract that grants tenure prventing a teacher from being fired, please.

I don't think you can.

Go ahead, show me one.

I double dare ya.

Double dare? {{{oh,oh!}}}} I didn't say it prevents it, it makes it very difficult. Felony crimes would result in instant firing. Thanks for the post.

It's very difficult?

I don't think so.

Its very easy.

You fire them.

If they have tenure they get to appeal their firing ...to expactly the same people who fired them in the first place.

If it was so hard to fire teachers why do -k-12 educators have the highest rate of turnover of any profession?

Let me tell you, it's hard to fire almost any worker if they've been at a job long enough but TENURE is NOT what most people think it is.

REad this thread and tell me how many people here think that TENURE means you cannot get fired.

M<OST of them.

And YOU, if you are actually an educator are helping to ADVANCE a PERNICIOUS LIE that is designed ONLY to break the back of teacher's unions.

Why?

"If they have tenure they get to appeal their firing ...to expactly the same people who fired them in the first place." (your quote)

Now that's just dandy. Appeal to the same people that fired you. What do you think the outcome would be? I can guess.

The reason the turnover is so high in K-12 is that it is an overall difficult job and the pay comparative speaking to business is poor.

I was a union rep., a Consultant who mentored first year teachers and recommended firings when needed and knew of the process of firing tenured teachers. It is a long drawn out process to avoid court challenges.

Since I was involved in the union, I knew of the politics involved and the unfairness that occurred with some of the higher ups when protecting poor teachers and ignoring others they didn't like. On the other hand, they did begin some very productive programs. It was the politics I didn't care for.

Just being honest here.

 

[chanel]

There is a great deal of politics and nepotism in hiring and firing decisions at schools. There is always the attraction of replacing older higher paid teachers with younger cheaper ones. Without some job protection, schools will become popularity contests with an extremely attractive, inexperienced, crew who will have little or no standards for their students, lest they ruffle a few parents' feathers. That is the God's honest truth.

The irony now is that administrators need NO reason to fire non-tenured teachers. They are the sacrificial lambs of the union. Hence, new teachers rarely enforce certain rules and never dare to fail anyone. It might tick off the wrong person.

Eliminating tenure is one of those "feel good" measures that look like an easy fix to very complex problem. Bad teachers are a very tiny piece of that puzzle.

 

[Annie]

Show me a teachers contract that grants tenure prventing a teacher from being fired, please.

I don't think you can.

Go ahead, show me one.

I double dare ya.

Double dare? {{{oh,oh!}}}} I didn't say it prevents it, it makes it very difficult. Felony crimes would result in instant firing. Thanks for the post.

It's very difficult?

I don't think so.

Its very easy.

You fire them.

If they have tenure they get to appeal their firing ...to expactly the same people who fired them in the first place.

If it was so hard to fire teachers why do -k-12 educators have the highest rate of turnover of any profession?

Let me tell you, it's hard to fire almost any worker if they've been at a job long enough but TENURE is NOT what most people think it is.

REad this thread and tell me how many people here think that TENURE means you cannot get fired.

M<OST of them.

And YOU, if you are actually an educator are helping to ADVANCE a PERNICIOUS LIE that is designed ONLY to break the back of teacher's unions.

Why?

Easy?

Expensive, Lengthy NJ Teacher Tenure Process Revealed - Big Government

2-5 years in NJ.

CA? Also years, even when gross misconduct has taken place.

Firing teachers can be a costly and tortuous task

* Frustration
Joseph Walker, former principal of Grant High School in Van Nuys, says that… (Liz O. Baylen / Los Angeles Times)

May 03, 2009|Jason Song

The eighth-grade boy held out his wrists for teacher Carlos Polanco to see.

He had just explained to Polanco and his history classmates at Virgil Middle School in Koreatown why he had been absent: He had been in the hospital after an attempt at suicide.

Polanco looked at the cuts and said they "were weak," according to witness accounts in documents filed with the state. "Carve deeper next time," he was said to have told the boy....

NY?

...On average, a full 3020-a hearing costs districts $216,588 and takes 502 days, according to a New York State School Boards Association survey of districts from 2004 to 2008....

Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers - Newsweek

...At the same time, the teachers' unions have become more and more powerful. In most states, after two or three years, teachers are given lifetime tenure. It is almost impossible to fire them. In New York City in 2008, three out of 30,000 tenured teachers were dismissed for cause. The statistics are just as eye-popping in other cities. The percentage of teachers dismissed for poor performance in Chicago between 2005 and 2008 (the most recent figures available) was 0.1 percent. In Akron, Ohio, zero percent. In Toledo, 0.01 percent. In Denver, zero percent. In no other socially significant profession are the workers so insulated from accountability. The responsibility does not just fall on the unions. Many principals don't even try to weed out the poor performers (or they transfer them to other schools in what's been dubbed the "dance of the lemons"). Year after year, about 99 percent of all teachers in the United States are rated "satisfactory" by their school systems; firing a teacher invites a costly court battle with the local union...

Discipline hearings for tenured teachers lengthy, costly

 

[editec]

Double dare? {{{oh,oh!}}}} I didn't say it prevents it, it makes it very difficult. Felony crimes would result in instant firing. Thanks for the post.

It's very difficult?

I don't think so.

Its very easy.

You fire them.

If they have tenure they get to appeal their firing ...to expactly the same people who fired them in the first place.

If it was so hard to fire teachers why do -k-12 educators have the highest rate of turnover of any profession?

Let me tell you, it's hard to fire almost any worker if they've been at a job long enough but TENURE is NOT what most people think it is.

REad this thread and tell me how many people here think that TENURE means you cannot get fired.

M<OST of them.

And YOU, if you are actually an educator are helping to ADVANCE a PERNICIOUS LIE that is designed ONLY to break the back of teacher's unions.

Why?

"If they have tenure they get to appeal their firing ...to expactly the same people who fired them in the first place." (your quote)

Now that's just dandy. Appeal to the same people that fired you. What do you think the outcome would be? I can guess.

The reason the turnover is so high in K-12 is that it is an overall difficult job and the pay comparative speaking to business is poor.

I was a union rep., a Consultant who mentored first year teachers and recommended firings when needed and knew of the process of firing tenured teachers. It is a long drawn out process to avoid court challenges.

Since I was involved in the union, I knew of the politics involved and the unfairness that occurred with some of the higher ups when protecting poor teachers and ignoring others they didn't like. On the other hand, they did begin some very productive programs. It was the politics I didn't care for.

Just being honest here.

Thank you, Jackson, for attempting to insinuate some REALITY into the discussion.

Yes it is a laborious process to fire a teacher gone wrong.

It is a laborious process to fire pretty much anybody in public or private business who has gone past their experation date.

But I don't read here anybody complaining about POLICE being practically impervious to firing.

And I'm willing to bet nearly any amount of money that the turnover rate of teachers far and away exceeds the rate of turnover of cops.

Anytime you fire any professional with time in service you run the risk of being sued.

That's life, folks.

And teachers don't have any more right to a lifetime job than most people in public or private life.

And they CAN be fired for things that most people could NOT be fired for, too

And the STATS more than prove that, too.

Mostly what happens is teacher don't get fired, they merely do NOT get REhired. Teachers with tenure in SOME school districts might not have to face that since they are automatically rehired UNLESS somebody takes action to fire them.

And THAT is really all that l-12 TENURE usually means.

And that is really distinction without much real differnece to the teaching profession

So lets stop pretending that TENURE is something it most defintely is NOT, shall we?

I mean seriously, is that too much to ask?

 

[Jackson]

editec. if we wanted to be perfectly clear....."tenure" really means you are no longer subject to regular reviews. That in itself, can encourage sloppy, lackadaisical work. Tenure should be abolished.

Can we agree?

 

[Annie]

I've posted local teachers salaries in Chicago area a number of times in response to someone saying teachers are underpaid. So, let me ask, what do you think would be a reasonable salary for a ten year primary teacher with a master's degree? A secondary teacher, also with ten years experience, with a master's in subject area?

 

[Jackson]

I've posted local teachers salaries in Chicago area a number of times in response to someone saying teachers are underpaid. So, let me ask, what do you think would be a reasonable salary for a ten year primary teacher with a master's degree? A secondary teacher, also with ten years experience, with a master's in subject area?

$48,000-50,000 would be my guess.

 

[Liberty]

100% approve. the tenured professors are always the worst.

 

[WorldWatcher]

editec. if we wanted to be perfectly clear....."tenure" really means you are no longer subject to regular reviews. That in itself, can encourage sloppy, lackadaisical work. Tenure should be abolished.

Can we agree?

I can't speak for editec, but I work in the Human Resources Office of a school district in Virginia with over 1,500 teachers. In Virginia "tenure" does not mean "you are no longer subject to regular reviews".

Here "Provisional" and non-"tenured" teachers are subject to Annual Reviews until such time as they are placed on a continuing contract (i.e. tenure). At this point your review changes from annual to a 3-year summary. That evaluation requires inclusion of documented completion of mandatory training/professional development requirements during each of the 3-years in addition to peroidc in-class observations by administrator's (Principal, AP, Curriculum Leader).



>>>>

 

[Annie]

I've posted local teachers salaries in Chicago area a number of times in response to someone saying teachers are underpaid. So, let me ask, what do you think would be a reasonable salary for a ten year primary teacher with a master's degree? A secondary teacher, also with ten years experience, with a master's in subject area?

$48,000-50,000 would be my guess.

Well? Not all are quite there, but most are close for average, without master's. In metro areas, I'm in collar county of Chicago, much higher:

My high school district:

a local 'unit district' k-12:

 

[Jackson]

Whoa! Was I in the wrong state! That's incredible! I ended at 32 years with $70,000 and that included extra contracts for additional assignments. Of course my first year teaching I received $10,000 and I thought that was great!

 

[Annie]

Whoa! Was I in the wrong state! That's incredible! I ended at 32 years with $70,000 and that included extra contracts for additional assignments. Of course my first year teaching I received $10,000 and I thought that was great!

I missed posting a link above-avg through all states, 2008/09 year:

Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com

Mind you, that's the 'average', no accounting for extra duties secondary teachers usually are required to have, that add another $3-5k per activity. No accounting for MS/MA or grad hours.

Still think teachers are underpaid?

 

[uscitizen]

o skull you are always so harsh....teachers cannot be dismissed in a hour...you are not working with products ...you are working with kids....kids need the security of a teacher being there all year etc.

they can just put those products (students) on the shelf until a new production person (teacher) is hired.

 

[uscitizen]

A good teacher is special. It is kind of like a good nurse. almost a "calling" type of job.
It is not like production where the rejected products can just be written off or recycled.

 

[Paulie]

The NJ teachers union may very well be the most powerful teachers union in the country.

Christie's got his hands full with this one.

I do like the proposal though. This is where Christie can prove he's for real, and not just talking tough to appease his voters.

 

[Paulie]

A good teacher is special. It is kind of like a good nurse. almost a "calling" type of job.
It is not like production where the rejected products can just be written off or recycled.

If you're a good teacher, you can rest assured the pertinent people know it.

I don't think this proposal would end up axing anyone who didn't thoroughly deserve it to begin with.

 

[rdean]

Gov. Chris Christie, who wants to scrap teacher tenure, today said he would like a system that reviews teacher performance every five years.

Christie suggested placing teachers on five-year contracts. When a contract expires, the teacher’s performance would be reviewed and decision would be made whether to renew for another five years, he said today at a town hall meeting in Paramus.

Gov. Christie pushes five-year performance review for teachers | NJ.com

Good idea?

There is nothing wrong with negotiation. Republicans are determined to do away with "education" and replace it with "Bible Study". It's not like they are "science minded" or anything.