CDZ GOP please vote per deanrd: Do you oppose Education and Health care? or Federalization of them?

[Marion Morrison]

Dupe thread

Fuck off, hayseed.

All I know is that the schools were way better before the Fed started meddling with them.

/---/ Today's schools no longer teach script or phonics. They stopped assigning homework because the kids don't bother doing it. The report-card grades are now 1,2,3,4 and if little Johnny doesn't get a 4 across the board the lawn mower parts are in the teacher's face with threats of lawsuits.

In many cases classes are simply pass/fail now. You can't have a student feeling bad because they didn't study as hard as another student.

Wow..I don't think it's entirely like that here, but..that's crazy!

 

[emilynghiem]

The federal government has no constitutional authority to be involved with either education or healthcare.

I'm not a GOP guy. I wrote-in Ron Paul in the 2016, even though he didn't run. He still got 1 electoral vote anyway. Ha.

P1 Depends on how one understands COTUS.

Art I, Section 8, clause 1 is worth reading, and suggests that the common Defense and general Welfare may be seen as protecting the United States from an attack by a foreign power or world-wide epidemics, pandemics like the current measles & Opium crisis and preventive measures.

Dear Wry Catcher and Natural Citizen
The Govt is ALSO required to uphold DUE PROCESS
and "not depriving citizens of liberty" without due process leading
to a conviction for which the law PRESCRIBES that loss of liberty as a penalty.

Where are citizens who don't believe in authorizing federal govt with
health care policies "convicted of committing a crime for which the
penalty is loss of liberty" by creating legislation that violates their beliefs?

You would have to prove
* compelling govt interest
* least restrictive means

In the case of ACA mandates, there was no proof of
either
* least restrictive means
* compelling govt interest to avoid some crisis as you list above
* wrongdoing by citizens before being deprived of liberty to
exercise free choice of health care and insurance without force of tax penalty

You are already assuming that your interpretation of
"general welfare" is not equal to "rights of due process"
but the "general welfare" somehow TRUMPS the EQUAL
right of citizens not to be deprived of liberty, WITHOUT
first proving what "compelling interest" made that
health care concern more pressing than the right of liberty and due process.

Both these provisions of "general welfare" and "due process"
are equally part of Constitutional law and duty of govt, are they not?

Why or what makes you justify putting YOUR beliefs
in one over the other? How is that not discrimination by creed
not to treat the two sides' beliefs equally under laws?

Shouldn't any laws we pass through govt meet BOTH
and ALL standards of Constitutional principles and process?
This way, people of ALL beliefs and creeds are included
and represented equally, not favoring one over the other.

So if a law compromises one side's beliefs to establish the other,
isn't this Discrimination by Creed? What did the other side
do wrong to justify losing liberty by having the govt violate those beliefs?
where have you proven WHICH citizens deserve to lose liberty
because of something they did that justifies penalty?

 

[Natural Citizen]

P1 Depends on how one understands COTUS.

Art I, Section 8, clause 1 is worth reading, and suggests that the common Defense and general Welfare may be seen as protecting the United States from an attack by a foreign power or a world-wide epidemics, pandemics like the current measles & Opium crisis.

The General Welare in the Preamble was intended to serve as a limitation on the use of delegated powers of the federal government. It doesn't grant arbitrary powers. It serves to limit them strictly.

The taxing clause is the only other mention of general welfare, as you correctly say in Article I, Sec. 8. There, too, it's meant to limit the federal government on what it could spend.

For interpretations such as therse we need look no further than the blueprint for the constitution, that being the Federalist.

Hamilton, for example, expressed clearly in the Federalist number 83 that Congress possesses no "general legislative authority" .

It's a rather deep discussion, start a new thread on it, I'll shoot the breeze with you about it. I'll certainly disagree that the general welfare clause permits these powers, and I'll always contend that the general welfare clause exists to limit their powers to those granted to them, but I'll do so in a civil maner, I'm not gonna get rabid about it.

It's an important topic, really.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Dear Wry Catcher and Natural Citizen
The Govt is ALSO required to uphold DUE PROCESS
and "not depriving citizens of liberty" without due process leading
to a conviction for which the law PRESCRIBES that loss of liberty as a penalty.

Except we're all guilty until proven innocent when they make us pay income tax. And good luck getting an informed jury. Ha.

That's actually the real unconstitutionality of it. The way they collect it. It turns the Constitution on its head. You have to fill out forms, testify against yourself, and all sorts of things.

 

[DandyDonovan]

Dear Wry Catcher and Natural Citizen
The Govt is ALSO required to uphold DUE PROCESS
and "not depriving citizens of liberty" without due process leading
to a conviction for which the law PRESCRIBES that loss of liberty as a penalty.

Except we're all guilty until proven innocent when they make us pay income tax. And good luck getting an informed jury. Ha.

That's actually the real unconstitutionality of it. The way they collect it. It turns the Constitution on its head. You have to fill out forms, testify against yourself, and all sorts of things.

And to add insult the injury they have made the tax code so convoluted that you have to hire a specialist to help you file correctly each year.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Wry Catcher and Natural Citizen
The Govt is ALSO required to uphold DUE PROCESS
and "not depriving citizens of liberty" without due process leading
to a conviction for which the law PRESCRIBES that loss of liberty as a penalty.

Except we're all guilty until proven innocent when they make us pay income tax. And good luck getting an informed jury. Ha.

That's actually the real unconstitutionality of it. The way they collect it. It turns the Constitution on its head. You have to fill out forms, testify against yourself, and all sorts of things.

Yes Natural Citizen
that's why I have been recommending to shift all the optional social programs
and policies to the states and parties. And let taxpayers CHOOSE where they
want to direct their taxes, what to fund or defund. Only fund on a federal level
what all taxpayers AGREE needs to be funneled and managed there. If people
like you believe most can be handled by district, state or party or nonprofits or
businesses locally, then those taxes would go there and not to federal govt.

The only thing missing is people keep trying to vote out or vote down the
people who want to push health care and education funding through govt.
So these people fight more to defend their beliefs and we go back and forth
wasting money on campaign funds to fight by majority rule.

Instead I'm asking let's just RECOGNIZE this belief as a CREED.
If the Political Party platform is RECOGNIZED LEGALLY as a political RELIGION
then it HAS to follow the First Amendment and NOT be imposed through govt by force of law on taxpayers.

But if we don't recognize the "free exercise of religion" for these people,
how can we invoke the same law that protects us from govt ESTABLISHING it
and prohibiting our beliefs? We need to recognize them all equally to invoke and enforce
this principles by united public agreement.

That's what I see missing.

The Liberals I know who support universal care as part of their beliefs
respond to YES we support you in establishing that.

Then we add to that support the condition that they build and fund
all the health care programs they want through their own party in order
to achieve this goal Constitutionally. They need to hear YES not NO.

So it makes a huge difference to support those beliefs
the right way, by free exercise of religion -- not by denying it --
but exercising it and funding programs directly.

The people I know who REALLY believe health care is a right through govt
don't see it as a choice but as a given requirement.

What's missing is support to meet that requirement the right way
instead of negating their beliefs and "prohibiting" it.
That is wasting time and resources that need to go into building it!
by voluntary free choice similar to any other successful nonprofit
that doesn't rely on govt to get funding to support services.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Wry Catcher and Natural Citizen
The Govt is ALSO required to uphold DUE PROCESS
and "not depriving citizens of liberty" without due process leading
to a conviction for which the law PRESCRIBES that loss of liberty as a penalty.

Except we're all guilty until proven innocent when they make us pay income tax. And good luck getting an informed jury. Ha.

That's actually the real unconstitutionality of it. The way they collect it. It turns the Constitution on its head. You have to fill out forms, testify against yourself, and all sorts of things.

And to add insult the injury they have made the tax code so convoluted that you have to hire a specialist to help you file correctly each year.

Again DandyDonovan
Delegate the terms and conditions for taxes to party
and let people check boxes if they want their benefits
managed through State, Federal govt, Party or local trusts.

Only the agreed programs that all citizens states and parties
approve going through federal govt would be handled by taxing on that level.
So very limited, very few programs we all agree to fund through federal govt.

The rest would go through State or Party,
so people can democratically set up their own process.

If liberals want universal health care registration they can
tweak and play with ACA all day and all night, as well
as DACA and work study registration for all the students
and workers they want to enroll in programs.

If you want same sex benefits, you sign up and micromanage
all that through your party's collective pool. If you do or don't want
abortion or health care for drug abusers or whatever, you sign
for that party, you agree to whatever terms come with that.

None of that optional social programming would be
federally required for all people. If you can't decide what
gender you want to register under that's on your forms.

If Conservatives only want two choices for M/F, then there is a separate
pool for all those people who don't want to pay to print forms
for 58 genders in multiple languages.

If we can't agree, that's a good sign that "social preferences" are involved
that don't belong in federal govt hands. we need to separate policies
and jurisdictions and just organize people by groups that agree on the same approaches.

 

[Oddball]

Anarcho-capitalist.

I support all of those things and more, by fully privatizing them...No involvement by The State in them whatsoever.

Gonna have to disagree with you here my friend.

We the people have a vested interest in the health and education of our fellow citizens.

The PROBLEM is, we have a system that just allows people to do whatever and then the tax payers have to foot the bill for the consequences of those choices.

Take education , for example. How many losers dicked their way through school barely graduating, or maybe not graduating at all and then just kick back and rely on welfare to make up for their stupidity?

You simply can not have a system where people waste the educational opportunity afforded them and then rewards them for failing in school. I mean come on.

You presume that there should be a social safety sofa for the layabouts to rely on in the first place.

 

[deanrd]

Don’t blame me for what Republicans say.

The majority of Republicans say colleges are bad for America (yes, really)

 

[deanrd]

deanrd posted in another thread that
GOP oppose Education and Health Care.

If you are GOP will you please vote in the
attached poll, what are you really against?

Education and Health Care?
or
"Federal centralized control" of these
instead of managing choices democratically
by people and states more effectively?

Can we settle this once and for all
what it is that Conservatives/GOP are opposed to?

Thanks!

Healthcare is controlled by healthcare companies. Not local people. That’s the problem.

 

[DandyDonovan]

Anarcho-capitalist.

I support all of those things and more, by fully privatizing them...No involvement by The State in them whatsoever.

Gonna have to disagree with you here my friend.

We the people have a vested interest in the health and education of our fellow citizens.

The PROBLEM is, we have a system that just allows people to do whatever and then the tax payers have to foot the bill for the consequences of those choices.

Take education , for example. How many losers dicked their way through school barely graduating, or maybe not graduating at all and then just kick back and rely on welfare to make up for their stupidity?

You simply can not have a system where people waste the educational opportunity afforded them and then rewards them for failing in school. I mean come on.

You presume that there should be a social safety sofa for the layabouts to rely on in the first place.

Incorrect

I presume that the kindness of our citizens will never allow for the removal of the safety net that now exists. I myself would not mind letting the strong survive and the weak well, they can become engineers.

 

[deanrd]

The federal government has no constitutional authority to be involved with either education or healthcare.

I'm not a GOP guy. I wrote-in Ron Paul in the 2016, even though he didn't run. He still got 1 electoral vote anyway. Ha.

If the government wasn’t involved with education, the majority of Americans, like Republicans, wouldn’t know how to read nor write.
Considering what Republicans write now on the USMB, it’s questionable whether they know how to read or write. Because what they write is such nonsense most of the time.

 

[Oddball]

Incorrect

I presume that the kindness of our citizens will never allow for the removal of the safety net that now exists. I myself would not mind letting the strong survive and the weak well, they can become engineers.

Kindness of citizens, at gunpoint if necessary.

Would such kindness just vanish in the absence of a massive bureaucratic welfare state?

 

[deanrd]

All I know is that the schools were way better before the Fed started meddling with them.

/---/ Today's schools no longer teach script or phonics. They stopped assigning homework because the kids don't bother doing it. The report-card grades are now 1,2,3,4 and if little Johnny doesn't get a 4 across the board the lawn mower parents are in the teacher's face with threats of lawsuits.

Yeah maybe in your area, but that’s not part of any school I ever heard of.

 

[G.T.]

Dupe thread

Fuck off, hayseed.

All I know is that the schools were way better before the Fed started meddling with them.

/---/ Today's schools no longer teach script or phonics. They stopped assigning homework because the kids don't bother doing it. The report-card grades are now 1,2,3,4 and if little Johnny doesn't get a 4 across the board the lawn mower parts are in the teacher's face with threats of lawsuits.

In many cases classes are simply pass/fail now. You can't have a student feeling bad because they didn't study as hard as another student.

Wow..I don't think it's entirely like that here, but..that's crazy!

not like that here either...eeven the kindersss are getting grades

 

[Oddball]

If the government wasn’t involved with education, the majority of Americans, like Republicans, wouldn’t know how to read nor write.
Considering what Republicans write now on the USMB, it’s questionable whether they know how to read or write. Because what they write is such nonsense most of the time.

A pretty fair number of them can't read or write right now....Nor can they do basic math or even count back change to me at the store...Is that supposed to be evidence of the "success" of gubmint schooling?

 

[deanrd]

Anarcho-capitalist.

I support all of those things and more, by fully privatizing them...No involvement by The State in them whatsoever.

Gonna have to disagree with you here my friend.

We the people have a vested interest in the health and education of our fellow citizens.

The PROBLEM is, we have a system that just allows people to do whatever and then the tax payers have to foot the bill for the consequences of those choices.

Take education , for example. How many losers dicked their way through school barely graduating, or maybe not graduating at all and then just kick back and rely on welfare to make up for their stupidity?

You simply can not have a system where people waste the educational opportunity afforded them and then rewards them for failing in school. I mean come on.

You presume that there should be a social safety sofa for the layabouts to rely on in the first place.

Incorrect

I presume that the kindness of our citizens will never allow for the removal of the safety net that now exists. I myself would not mind letting the strong survive and the weak well, they can become engineers.

The weak can become engineers? Becoming an engineer was why I was able to retire at 63. It’s engineers who built this nation.
It’s engineers who take calculations discovered by scientists and turn them in to actual pieces of working equipment.

 

[deanrd]

If the government wasn’t involved with education, the majority of Americans, like Republicans, wouldn’t know how to read nor write.
Considering what Republicans write now on the USMB, it’s questionable whether they know how to read or write. Because what they write is such nonsense most of the time.

A pretty fair number of them can't read or write right now....Nor can they do basic math or even count back change to me at the store...Is that supposed to be evidence of the "success" of gubmint schooling?

Depends on where you live. Go to Appalachia, the heartland of the GOP.

 

[G.T.]

If the government wasn’t involved with education, the majority of Americans, like Republicans, wouldn’t know how to read nor write.
Considering what Republicans write now on the USMB, it’s questionable whether they know how to read or write. Because what they write is such nonsense most of the time.

A pretty fair number of them can't read or write right now....Nor can they do basic math or even count back change to me at the store...Is that supposed to be evidence of the "success" of gubmint schooling?

You sound like the success of the angry get off my lawn incoherence that thinks about "kids these days!!" all day long.

 

[Oddball]

If the government wasn’t involved with education, the majority of Americans, like Republicans, wouldn’t know how to read nor write.
Considering what Republicans write now on the USMB, it’s questionable whether they know how to read or write. Because what they write is such nonsense most of the time.

A pretty fair number of them can't read or write right now....Nor can they do basic math or even count back change to me at the store...Is that supposed to be evidence of the "success" of gubmint schooling?

Depends on where you live. Go to Appalachia, the heartland of the GOP.

Bigotry isn't an argument.