Global Warming Actually Still Accelerating - no "lull"

[Saigon]

Ok, here we go.

Wind 86.6

Clean Coal 135.5

http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/aeo/electricity_generation.cfm

When you have acknowleged this, I'll present the others.OK?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Ok, here we go.

Australia

Dollars per MW hour.

Wind: 63

Clean Coal: 98

The following table gives a selection of LECs from two major government reports from Australia.[19][20] Note that these LECs do not include any cost for the greenhouse gas emissions (such as under carbon tax or emissions trading scenarios) associated with the different technologies.

That's awesome!
Does the fact that the wind generator might only produce 10% of capacity make it a better or worse investment?

 

[Saigon]

Todd -

Please acknowledge the information provided before moving on to other points.

I'm not a big fan of wind myself - but I do like facts.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Todd -

Please acknowledge the information provided before moving on to other points.

I'm not a big fan of wind myself - but I do like facts.

The link that you added shows estimated costs for plants entering service in 2018.
What would you like me to acknowledge?

 

[Saigon]

Todd -

I can post as many examples as you like. They all show wind as cheaper than clean coal. Why not go and check for yourself, that way you might believe what you see?

I'm asking you to acknowledge this so that we will know that you have understood.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Todd -

I can post as many examples as you like. They all show wind as cheaper than clean coal. Why not go and check for yourself, that way you might believe what you see?

I'm asking you to acknowledge this so that we will know that you have understood.

Sure, post some real world numbers, not estimates for 2018.

 

[Saigon]

Todd -

OK, sure.

Total Systemized Costs: Averages

Wind: 96.8

Clean Coal: 140.7

And while weare at it, here is the UK:

Wind: 80 - 110

Clean coal: 100 - 155

Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Todd -

OK, sure.

Total Systemized Costs: Averages

Wind: 96.8

Clean Coal: 140.7

And while weare at it, here is the UK:

Wind: 80 - 110

Clean coal: 100 - 155

Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your wiki numbers table said this at the top.

Estimated Levelized Cost of New Generation Resources, 2017[10]

I did notice this.......

In the case of wind energy, the additional costs in terms of increased back up and grid interconnection to allow for diversity of weather and load may be substantial. This is because wind stops blowing frequently even in large areas at once and for prolonged periods of time. Some wind advocates have argued that in the pan-European case back up costs are quite low, resulting in overall wind energy costs about the same as present day power.[25] However, such claims are generally considered too optimistic, except possibly for some marginal increases that, in particular circumstances, may take advantage of the existing infrastructure

 

[PMZ]

Despite the efforts by conservatives, this country will not fail. We will accept science. We will pursue all of the opportunities inherent in the complete retooling of the world's energy system. We will stay ahead of the declining supplies and rising costs of fossil fuels. We will rebuild civilization where it needs to be given the new and different climate we have forced on our planet.

But, throughout it all, we will do it to the steady drone of their whining. The constant negativity of those with inadequate faith in mankind. Against their pull of ignorance based limitations. Because, simply, that's what mankind has always done.

The title of media biased conservatives may be modern, but what they preach has been preached through the millennia. Nothing new. They are the drag that doers always overcome with the energy of discovery.

They didn't become irrelevent. That's what they've always been.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Despite the efforts by conservatives, this country will not fail. We will accept science. We will pursue all of the opportunities inherent in the complete retooling of the world's energy system. We will stay ahead of the declining supplies and rising costs of fossil fuels. We will rebuild civilization where it needs to be given the new and different climate we have forced on our planet.

But, throughout it all, we will do it to the steady drone of their whining. The constant negativity of those with inadequate faith in mankind. Against their pull of ignorance based limitations. Because, simply, that's what mankind has always done.

The title of media biased conservatives may be modern, but what they preach has been preached through the millennia. Nothing new. They are the drag that doers always overcome with the energy of discovery.

They didn't become irrelevent. That's what they've always been.

We will stay ahead of the declining supplies and rising costs of fossil fuels.

Yes we will. LOL!

 

[Saigon]

Todd -

Still waiting for you to admit that wind is cheaper.

Why it is so damn difficult for you, I cannot imagine.

 

[westwall]

The truth of the matter is that MTBE was a compromise with the petroleum industry. It was the least expensive way to increase the oxidation of pollutants in the exhaust of automobiles. The petroleum industry heavily promoted it for this purpose because for them it was a waste product of the refinery process. Getting the government to adopt THEIR plan was a big financial win for them. It wasn't until it got into the ground water from THEIR leaking underground storage tanks that the real problem with MTBE became apparent. It doesn't easily break down once it is released into the environment because there are no microbes that can readily digest it. And so California banned it, and many other states have since followed. It was a case of good intentions (on the part of the government) having a bad result. Believe me, they've learned from that mistake.

Of COURSE they did. It was a pain in the ass, and expensive for them to remove so they convinced the libtard enviro idiots that it was the bee's knee's and the libtards obliged.

We warned them about the caustic nature of MTBE and how it was potential carcinogen and they ignored us.

Who was right? We conservationists. Who was wrong.....YOU were....

Who is "we? No one had given it a second thought until California tried to clean up MTBE from leaking tanks, and then banned it for use in gasoline in California. You Republicans cannot claim that. You had nothing to do with it. In fact, it was your bosses in the petroleum industry that wanted to add it to gasoline in the first place.

Oh, and speaking of carcinogens, it's odd that you would mention MTBE as a carcinogen (particularly as it is not a known human carcinogen - MTBE) and yet have nothing at all to say about benzene (one of the most carcinogenic substances known to man) having replaced methyl lead as an anti-knock agent in gasoline since at least the late 1980s and is still in there.

You're as uniformed as your alter ego saggy I see. I suggest you look up Dr. Bill Wattenberg and his efforts to derail the MTBE debacle before it got started.

 

[westwall]

Of COURSE they did. It was a pain in the ass, and expensive for them to remove so they convinced the libtard enviro idiots that it was the bee's knee's and the libtards obliged.

We warned them about the caustic nature of MTBE and how it was potential carcinogen and they ignored us.

Who was right? We conservationists. Who was wrong.....YOU were....

Who is "we? No one had given it a second thought until California tried to clean up MTBE from leaking tanks, and then banned it for use in gasoline in California. You Republicans cannot claim that. You had nothing to do with it. In fact, it was your bosses in the petroleum industry that wanted to add it to gasoline in the first place.

Oh, and speaking of carcinogens, it's odd that you would mention MTBE as a carcinogen (particularly as it is not a known human carcinogen - MTBE) and yet have nothing at all to say about benzene (one of the most carcinogenic substances known to man) having replaced methyl lead as an anti-knock agent in gasoline since at least the late 1980s and is still in there.

According to the IARC of the WHO, MTBE is not carcinogenic.

Additionally, from the Wikipedia article on MTBE: Advocates of both sides of the debate in the United States sometimes claim that gasoline manufacturers have been forced to add MTBE to gasoline by law. It might be more correct to say they have been induced to do so, although any oxygenate would fulfill the law.

Wiki? Please, find a better source.

 

[westwall]

Todd -

I can post as many examples as you like. They all show wind as cheaper than clean coal. Why not go and check for yourself, that way you might believe what you see?

I'm asking you to acknowledge this so that we will know that you have understood.

I already showed you how in the real world the wind farm built for Reno is an abject failure. The BEST case scenario for it is a 300 year payback. Kind of difficult when the windmills only last for 25 years or so.

In other words you can post any type of propaganda bullshit you want....the REAL facts are that wind is a terrible investment and I too would love to see you go full windpower....it would be the last we ever see of you and your bullshit propaganda.

 

[westwall]

Despite the efforts by conservatives, this country will not fail. We will accept science. We will pursue all of the opportunities inherent in the complete retooling of the world's energy system. We will stay ahead of the declining supplies and rising costs of fossil fuels. We will rebuild civilization where it needs to be given the new and different climate we have forced on our planet.

But, throughout it all, we will do it to the steady drone of their whining. The constant negativity of those with inadequate faith in mankind. Against their pull of ignorance based limitations. Because, simply, that's what mankind has always done.

The title of media biased conservatives may be modern, but what they preach has been preached through the millennia. Nothing new. They are the drag that doers always overcome with the energy of discovery.

They didn't become irrelevent. That's what they've always been.

Yes, despite your best efforts to **** this wonderful country up you will fail. There's too many good smart people to let a bunch of morons like you run this place.

 

[westwall]

Todd -

Still waiting for you to admit that wind is cheaper.

Why it is so damn difficult for you, I cannot imagine.

Still waiting for you to post an honest cost analysis of your wind power. Not projections and propaganda. Please show us the real world figures for Scotland and the Low Countries please.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Todd -

Still waiting for you to admit that wind is cheaper.

Why it is so damn difficult for you, I cannot imagine.

How is your estimate for new capacity in 2017 or 2018 proof of your claim?

Wind could be cheaper than coal and still useless if it only produces for 20% of the day.

You do understand that, at least, don't you?

Your computer won't work very well if you tried to power it using a windmill, will it?

 

[IanC]

How often does Todd or any other realistic poster have to point out to you that wind and solar are intermittent power sources that HAVE to be backed up by an on-demand alternative? When will wind and solar costs realistically add this dimension rather than penalize fossil fuel by adding in idling time?

Would you open a restaurant without knowing if you had dependable power? What wouldthe cost of that be? Check the economies of contries that have habitual rolling blackouts.

 

[orogenicman]

How often does Todd or any other realistic poster have to point out to you that wind and solar are intermittent power sources that HAVE to be backed up by an on-demand alternative? When will wind and solar costs realistically add this dimension rather than penalize fossil fuel by adding in idling time?

Would you open a restaurant without knowing if you had dependable power? What wouldthe cost of that be? Check the economies of contries that have habitual rolling blackouts.

How many times does it have to be said that no one is expecting the current solar and wind technology to replace every conventional energy source available today? And why shouldn't fossil fuel (with the exception of natural gas) be penalized? It is the primary (though not the sole reason) reason why the push for alternative energy sources is happening in the first place.

But let's look at what we have in place already, shall we? Is there ANY evidence whatsoever that the current solar and wind resources we have online today has resulted in shortages, permanently rising prices, blackouts or other downtime on the grid? Any at all? Why don't you folks have a problem with other alternative sources (like hydroelectric) that have been online for over 100 years, but get bent out of shape when any other source is considered?

 

[flacaltenn]

Todd -

Still waiting for you to admit that wind is cheaper.

Why it is so damn difficult for you, I cannot imagine.

Hang in there Toddster --- you are correct. The accounting for the cost of wind is bogus by any means --- because it doesn't include the costs of spent fuel from the PRIMARY GENERATORS or the cost of labor and maintenance for the primary generators as they try to cycle up and down to follow the screwy wind patterns..

Almost all those simplistic comparisons are shams. Disgusting lying shams -- just like the morons who push this nonsense..