Global emissions hit record levels

[Old Rocks]

Can you walk me through the "science"? Use small words

Explain how the CO2 is turning the oceans acidic

Okay!

The more CO2 you have in the atmosphere, the more CO2 you have dissolved in the waters in contact with the atmosphere.

CO2 + H2O ----> H2CO3 (AKA Carbonic Acid) ----> H+ + HCO3

the more H+ (free hydrogen ions) you have in a solution, the more “acidic” that solution becomes.

Currently, the oceans are about 30% more acidic than they were a century ago, and are considerably more acidic than they have been in at least 800,000 years and possibly more than they've been in the last 50 million years or more.

And all it takes is one molecule of CO2 to turn the oceans acidic?

Can you continue you train of thought?

What does it mean that "the oceans are about 30% more acidic than they were a century ago"? If the ocean pH is 8, where does a 30% more acidic change take us?

(I have several more questions, but it's best to do this in small doses because I'm a layman)

Frankie Boy, you have been shown what the scientists state many times on all aspects of this subject. All you do is come back with idiotic nonsense every time. Why should anybody waste their time on you?

You really want answers? Google

 

[Saigon]

Crusader -

I'm confused as to what your "theory" is and what mechanism is driving this increase in CO2.

The more CO2 you have in the atmosphere, the more CO2 you have dissolved in the waters in contact with the atmosphere.

CO2 + H2O ----> H2CO3 (AKA Carbonic Acid) ----> H+ + HCO3

the more H+ (free hydrogen ions) you have in a solution, the more “acidic” that solution becomes.

I already linked an article which answered your other questions in detail....presumably you didn't care enough to read it. Which makes me wonder why you ask....?

 

[konradv]

I'm confused as to what your "theory" is and what mechanism is driving this increase in CO2.

1. I thought that as oceans warmed from AGW they retained less CO2 and caused a "Feedback Loop" Have you abandoned that theory?

2. To the extent that the increase in CO2 is solely responsible for this 30% increase in acidity, can you walk me though the basic chemist involved? What's the pH of Carbonic acid? Is it a stable molecule that stays in the oceans for 200 years?

True as water warms it will hold less CO2, but if it hasn't reached its saturation point, there can be an increase in its oceanic concentration and higher outgassing in response to the higher concentration.

The basic chemistry has already been posted. This is just another example your asking a question that has already been answered. Unbuffered water bubbled with CO2 will achieve a pH of ~3. Whether or not its a stable molecule that lasts 200 years is irrelevant, as new CO2 is always available.

 

[konradv]

Crusader -

I'm confused as to what your "theory" is and what mechanism is driving this increase in CO2.

The more CO2 you have in the atmosphere, the more CO2 you have dissolved in the waters in contact with the atmosphere.

CO2 + H2O ----> H2CO3 (AKA Carbonic Acid) ----> H+ + HCO3

the more H+ (free hydrogen ions) you have in a solution, the more “acidic” that solution becomes.

One small correction, that would be ----> H+ + HCO3-

Gotta keep those charges balanced.

 

[Trakar]

Crusader -

I'm confused as to what your "theory" is and what mechanism is driving this increase in CO2.

The more CO2 you have in the atmosphere, the more CO2 you have dissolved in the waters in contact with the atmosphere.

CO2 + H2O ----> H2CO3 (AKA Carbonic Acid) ----> H+ + HCO3

the more H+ (free hydrogen ions) you have in a solution, the more “acidic” that solution becomes.

One small correction, that would be ----> H+ + HCO3-

Gotta keep those charges balanced.

True enough, good catch!

Truth be told, the posting box here screwed up my original post (done in ChemSketch) so badly that I'm sure I lost the anion signifier in the clean-up and just didn't notice it's disappearance. No excuses, however, I should have proofed the post.

Actually, if the setup here had sub and superscript functionality there would probably be no need to write chem formulae in a seperate editor, is there a feature I don't have activated, or is it just antiquated board-ware?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Okay!

The more CO2 you have in the atmosphere, the more CO2 you have dissolved in the waters in contact with the atmosphere.

CO2 + H2O ----> H2CO3 (AKA Carbonic Acid) ----> H+ + HCO3

the more H+ (free hydrogen ions) you have in a solution, the more “acidic” that solution becomes.

Currently, the oceans are about 30% more acidic than they were a century ago, and are considerably more acidic than they have been in at least 800,000 years and possibly more than they've been in the last 50 million years or more.

And all it takes is one molecule of CO2 to turn the oceans acidic?

Can you continue you train of thought?

What does it mean that "the oceans are about 30% more acidic than they were a century ago"? If the ocean pH is 8, where does a 30% more acidic change take us?

(I have several more questions, but it's best to do this in small doses because I'm a layman)

Frankie Boy, you have been shown what the scientists state many times on all aspects of this subject. All you do is come back with idiotic nonsense every time. Why should anybody waste their time on you?

You really want answers? Google

All these scientists and they can't come up with one repeatable lab experiment that shows us how a 100PPM increase in atmospheric CO2 causes an increase in temperature and acidifies the oceans (thank me for leaving out the ridiculous 'and causes undersea earthquakes and volcanoes' out)

Why is that Rocks? If it works as you suggest why does it fail 100% of the time in a lab?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Crusader -

I'm confused as to what your "theory" is and what mechanism is driving this increase in CO2.

The more CO2 you have in the atmosphere, the more CO2 you have dissolved in the waters in contact with the atmosphere.

CO2 + H2O ----> H2CO3 (AKA Carbonic Acid) ----> H+ + HCO3

the more H+ (free hydrogen ions) you have in a solution, the more “acidic” that solution becomes.

I already linked an article which answered your other questions in detail....presumably you didn't care enough to read it. Which makes me wonder why you ask....?

I read it and like your posts, it was read short on specifics, that's what I'm getting to here.

Well, let me just ask it outright.

How much additional CO2 do you need to add to the oceans to have the pH drop 30%?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Crusader -



The more CO2 you have in the atmosphere, the more CO2 you have dissolved in the waters in contact with the atmosphere.

CO2 + H2O ----> H2CO3 (AKA Carbonic Acid) ----> H+ + HCO3

the more H+ (free hydrogen ions) you have in a solution, the more “acidic” that solution becomes.

One small correction, that would be ----> H+ + HCO3-

Gotta keep those charges balanced.

True enough, good catch!

Truth be told, the posting box here screwed up my original post (done in ChemSketch) so badly that I'm sure I lost the anion signifier in the clean-up and just didn't notice it's disappearance. No excuses, however, I should have proofed the post.

Actually, if the setup here had sub and superscript functionality there would probably be no need to write chem formulae in a seperate editor, is there a feature I don't have activated, or is it just antiquated board-ware?

Bicarbonate is an alkaline, right? That's the opposite of an acid, right? How can you just count the free hydrogen ions and ignore the alkaline?

 

[bobgnote]

Crosstard has asked this CO2 + H2O ~~~~> H2CO3 ~~~~> carbonate-question, on any several threads. Any answer one of us gives him is not enough, since Crosstard is a zombie.

When Crosstard and his pals catch on fire, or if Woody Harrelson gets a head-shot in, down goes dead-Meat, rotten, before it hits the ground. So fire is preferred.

See why zombies don't want to believe in AGW or ACC? It means brains don't taste as good, and zombies are like forests; they burn up, in the increasingly hot climate.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Crosstard has asked this CO2 + H2O ~~~~> H2CO3 ~~~~> carbonate-question, on any several threads. Any answer one of us gives him is not enough, since Crosstard is a zombie.

When Crosstard and his pals catch on fire, or if Woody Harrelson gets a head-shot in, down goes dead-Meat, rotten, before it hits the ground. So fire is preferred.

See why zombies don't want to believe in AGW or ACC? It means brains don't taste as good, and zombies are like forests; they burn up, in the increasingly hot climate.

That's how you been "Answering" and then you wonder why I call bullshit on your stupid theory

 

[flacaltenn]

I'm confused as to what your "theory" is and what mechanism is driving this increase in CO2.

1. I thought that as oceans warmed from AGW they retained less CO2 and caused a "Feedback Loop" Have you abandoned that theory?

2. To the extent that the increase in CO2 is solely responsible for this 30% increase in acidity, can you walk me though the basic chemist involved? What's the pH of Carbonic acid? Is it a stable molecule that stays in the oceans for 200 years?

True as water warms it will hold less CO2, but if it hasn't reached its saturation point, there can be an increase in its oceanic concentration and higher outgassing in response to the higher concentration.

The basic chemistry has already been posted. This is just another example your asking a question that has already been answered. Unbuffered water bubbled with CO2 will achieve a pH of ~3. Whether or not its a stable molecule that lasts 200 years is irrelevant, as new CO2 is always available.

What's the PH of fresh water run-off? ((7.0) You morons say the sea is rising at "alarming" rates. WHERE IS THAT RISE COMING FROM?

What about acids formed from NOx and SOx?? We know there was a huge spike over the past couple decades.. How much has THAT Contributed?

The ocean exchanges 12 times the man-made contribution of CO2 per year. How ACCURATE is that source/sink measurement and what variables could cause it to change?

But more importantly -- what does it MEAN if we don't know day to day, month to month PH variances in the ecosystems that we are concerned about. I posted the chart -- no comments. Guess you're not concerned about 80% NATURAL monthly variations in PH.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I'm confused as to what your "theory" is and what mechanism is driving this increase in CO2.

1. I thought that as oceans warmed from AGW they retained less CO2 and caused a "Feedback Loop" Have you abandoned that theory?

2. To the extent that the increase in CO2 is solely responsible for this 30% increase in acidity, can you walk me though the basic chemist involved? What's the pH of Carbonic acid? Is it a stable molecule that stays in the oceans for 200 years?

True as water warms it will hold less CO2, but if it hasn't reached its saturation point, there can be an increase in its oceanic concentration and higher outgassing in response to the higher concentration.

The basic chemistry has already been posted. This is just another example your asking a question that has already been answered. Unbuffered water bubbled with CO2 will achieve a pH of ~3. Whether or not its a stable molecule that lasts 200 years is irrelevant, as new CO2 is always available.

What's the PH of fresh water run-off? ((7.0) You morons say the sea is rising at "alarming" rates. WHERE IS THAT RISE COMING FROM?

What about acids formed from NOx and SOx?? We know there was a huge spike over the past couple decades.. How much has THAT Contributed?

The ocean exchanges 12 times the man-made contribution of CO2 per year. How ACCURATE is that source/sink measurement and what variables could cause it to change?

But more importantly -- what does it MEAN if we don't know day to day, month to month PH variances in the ecosystems that we are concerned about. I posted the chart -- no comments. Guess you're not concerned about 80% NATURAL monthly variations in PH.

The entire notion that there's a global "average" ocean pH out in the .01 column is prima facia totally ******* stupid in the first place

 

[flacaltenn]

I suppose if we did global averages on everything and boiled it down to one politically important number --- then nothing would ever get fixed correctly...

 

[Trakar]

Can you walk me through the "science"? Use small words
Explain how the CO2 is turning the oceans acidic

Okay!
The more CO2 you have in the atmosphere, the more CO2 you have dissolved in the waters in contact with the atmosphere.
CO2 + H2O ----> H2CO3 (AKA Carbonic Acid) ----> H+ + HCO3
the more H+ (free hydrogen ions) you have in a solution, the more “acidic” that solution becomes.
Currently, the oceans are about 30% more acidic than they were a century ago, and are considerably more acidic than they have been in at least 800,000 years and possibly more than they've been in the last 50 million years or more.

And all it takes is one molecule of CO2 to turn the oceans acidic?

That is not what I stated, nor was this absurdity implicit in the question you asked which was for a "small word" simplification of the process (chemistry) of how atmospheric CO2 turns the oceans acidic. That said, technically water, regardless of the volume, would be made more acidic (have a higher concentration of cations) through the addition of a single extra free proton (hydrogen cation), of course, even in a small volume of water, that level of acidification is generally immeasurable. When, however, we are talking about adding 30+ gigatons of CO2/year to the atmosphere even bodies of water as large as the oceans on our planet, undergo measureable change when this much of an active chemical is introduced to those waters annually.

Can you continue you train of thought?

certainly, but given that you now understand the process, plugging the proper numbers into the equations for calculating the volume and mass of the ocean's surface (upper 30 meters) waters and then applying standard pH calculations given the volume of CO2 added to these surface waters each year, should yeild the results you seem to be seeking. (current measurements indicate an accelerating decadal average pH increase of about 0.02 units)

What does it mean that "the oceans are about 30% more acidic than they were a century ago"? If the ocean pH is 8, where does a 30% more acidic change take us?
(I have several more questions, but it's best to do this in small doses because I'm a layman)

At the start of the industrial revolution the average ocean pH was measured to be ~8.25, current measurements yield an average of ~8.135. A pH level change of 0.1 units is equivilant to a 30% change in cation concentration. Our actual measured change is a bit higher than 0.1 (.115), so my statement of 30% is a bit low and should be considered a conservative estimation. There is of course variation with less acidity in the tropical waters than in the higher latitude oceans due to the increased buffer capacity of tropical waters (and less ability of the warmer waters to hold onto dissolved CO2). this doesn't mean that sea water is going to start fizzing and acting like concentrated strong acids, but it does meant that much of the current base of the food chain which depends upon a higher, stable pH are at risk of disruption. There are issues occurring now, but it is the issues that come associated with the even higher levels that our increasing levels of atmospheric emissions portend which are the problem we must deal with.

Layman or expert, issues are generally best tackled in bite-size bits.

I have no problem sharing my understandings or any civil discussion of issues, even when there is an extreme difference of position and perspective; I generally turn the other cheek several times before the only cheeks I have left are gluteal.

 

[flacaltenn]

but it does meant that much of the current base of the food chain which depends upon a higher, stable pH are at risk of disruption.

You must have missed the chart showing how UNSTABLE the enviromental PH of REAL biohabitats are in the coastal ocean. And a change of .1 over a CENTURY doesn't mean a twit to variance in coastal and reef habitats from Mon to Wed..

But MORE IMPORTANTLY -- we don't know shit about what proportion of this change is due to the OTHER effects I listed above...

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Okay!
The more CO2 you have in the atmosphere, the more CO2 you have dissolved in the waters in contact with the atmosphere.
CO2 + H2O ----> H2CO3 (AKA Carbonic Acid) ----> H+ + HCO3
the more H+ (free hydrogen ions) you have in a solution, the more “acidic” that solution becomes.
Currently, the oceans are about 30% more acidic than they were a century ago, and are considerably more acidic than they have been in at least 800,000 years and possibly more than they've been in the last 50 million years or more.

And all it takes is one molecule of CO2 to turn the oceans acidic?

That is not what I stated, nor was this absurdity implicit in the question you asked which was for a "small word" simplification of the process (chemistry) of how atmospheric CO2 turns the oceans acidic. That said, technically water, regardless of the volume, would be made more acidic (have a higher concentration of cations) through the addition of a single extra free proton (hydrogen cation), of course, even in a small volume of water, that level of acidification is generally immeasurable. When, however, we are talking about adding 30+ gigatons of CO2/year to the atmosphere even bodies of water as large as the oceans on our planet, undergo measureable change when this much of an active chemical is introduced to those waters annually.

Can you continue you train of thought?

certainly, but given that you now understand the process, plugging the proper numbers into the equations for calculating the volume and mass of the ocean's surface (upper 30 meters) waters and then applying standard pH calculations given the volume of CO2 added to these surface waters each year, should yeild the results you seem to be seeking. (current measurements indicate an accelerating decadal average pH increase of about 0.02 units)

What does it mean that "the oceans are about 30% more acidic than they were a century ago"? If the ocean pH is 8, where does a 30% more acidic change take us?
(I have several more questions, but it's best to do this in small doses because I'm a layman)

At the start of the industrial revolution the average ocean pH was measured to be ~8.25, current measurements yield an average of ~8.135. A pH level change of 0.1 units is equivilant to a 30% change in cation concentration. Our actual measured change is a bit higher than 0.1 (.115), so my statement of 30% is a bit low and should be considered a conservative estimation. There is of course variation with less acidity in the tropical waters than in the higher latitude oceans due to the increased buffer capacity of tropical waters (and less ability of the warmer waters to hold onto dissolved CO2). this doesn't mean that sea water is going to start fizzing and acting like concentrated strong acids, but it does meant that much of the current base of the food chain which depends upon a higher, stable pH are at risk of disruption. There are issues occurring now, but it is the issues that come associated with the even higher levels that our increasing levels of atmospheric emissions portend which are the problem we must deal with.

Layman or expert, issues are generally best tackled in bite-size bits.

I have no problem sharing my understandings or any civil discussion of issues, even when there is an extreme difference of position and perspective; I generally turn the other cheek several times before the only cheeks I have left are gluteal.

This has been amazingly civil and illuminating. Other Warmers tend to turn to insults and pooh flinging rather than get this far, so thank you.

I come back to the 30+ gigatons of CO2 when compared to the volume of the oceans. It seems to me, as a layman, that though 30 gigatons seems like a really big number, when compared to the volume of the Earths ocean's it's less than a rounding error.

So assuming that ALL the CO2 is converted to Carbonic acid what effect would this have on ocean chemistry in any given year? The total volume of the ocean (with an average pH of 8.whatever) is 1.5E+18 if we add 30 gigatons of CO2 (3E+10), that's a .000002% difference.

How is it possible to change ocean chemistry on the scale described if you're only making these minuscule changes?

 

[bobgnote]

I'm confused as to what your "theory" is and what mechanism is driving this increase in CO2.

1. I thought that as oceans warmed from AGW they retained less CO2 and caused a "Feedback Loop" Have you abandoned that theory?

2. To the extent that the increase in CO2 is solely responsible for this 30% increase in acidity, can you walk me though the basic chemist involved? What's the pH of Carbonic acid? Is it a stable molecule that stays in the oceans for 200 years?

True as water warms it will hold less CO2, but if it hasn't reached its saturation point, there can be an increase in its oceanic concentration and higher outgassing in response to the higher concentration.

The basic chemistry has already been posted. This is just another example your asking a question that has already been answered. Unbuffered water bubbled with CO2 will achieve a pH of ~3. Whether or not its a stable molecule that lasts 200 years is irrelevant, as new CO2 is always available.

What's the PH of fresh water run-off? ((7.0) You morons say the sea is rising at "alarming" rates. WHERE IS THAT RISE COMING FROM?

What about acids formed from NOx and SOx?? We know there was a huge spike over the past couple decades.. How much has THAT Contributed?

The ocean exchanges 12 times the man-made contribution of CO2 per year. How ACCURATE is that source/sink measurement and what variables could cause it to change?

But more importantly -- what does it MEAN if we don't know day to day, month to month PH variances in the ecosystems that we are concerned about. I posted the chart -- no comments. Guess you're not concerned about 80% NATURAL monthly variations in PH.

Go to Wikipedia, finally, Fatass and CrosstardPunkhole! You don't read websites or posts. so go to Wikipedia, and THEN ask people at forums to explain particulars:

Carbonic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Theoretical calculations show that the presence of even a single molecule of water causes carbonic acid to revert to carbon dioxide and water. In the absence of water, the dissociation of gaseous carbonic acid is predicted to be very slow, with a half-life of 180,000 years.[6]

By the time rainwater hits the ground, it may be pH 5.5. If you have a question, research it on the internet, post some of your own links, or just explain to somebody at your local Log Cabin Club chaper, how you have a blockage, about using search engines, sit on each others' laps, and spin.

As for SLR, read the threads, AT THIS FORUM, hit search, and THEN ask good questions, instead of posting rants, with your heads fresh out of each others' queer assholes.

 

[konradv]

So assuming that ALL the CO2 is converted to Carbonic acid what effect would this have on ocean chemistry in any given year? The total volume of the ocean (with an average pH of 8.whatever) is 1.5E+18 if we add 30 gigatons of CO2 (3E+10), that's a .000002% difference.

How is it possible to change ocean chemistry on the scale described if you're only making these minuscule changes?

It's the change in the number of H+ ions that's important. If X amount of CO2 causes a certain pH, then an increase would cause a proportionate change, the total volume being irrelevant. That's the same mistake you make in counting the entire atmosphere when claiming the added CO2 is miniscule, when what matters is the change in the active ingredient.

 

[konradv]

What's the PH of fresh water run-off? ((7.0) You morons say...

Fresh water's pH is not 7.0, it's in the acidic range. As soon as water meets air it starts absorbing CO2 and forms carbonic acid. For water to have a pH of 7.0 it would have to be freshly distilled and kept under an inert gas.

I'd be careful about calling people morons, when you apparently don't even know basic physical chemistry.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

True as water warms it will hold less CO2, but if it hasn't reached its saturation point, there can be an increase in its oceanic concentration and higher outgassing in response to the higher concentration.

The basic chemistry has already been posted. This is just another example your asking a question that has already been answered. Unbuffered water bubbled with CO2 will achieve a pH of ~3. Whether or not its a stable molecule that lasts 200 years is irrelevant, as new CO2 is always available.

What's the PH of fresh water run-off? ((7.0) You morons say the sea is rising at "alarming" rates. WHERE IS THAT RISE COMING FROM?

What about acids formed from NOx and SOx?? We know there was a huge spike over the past couple decades.. How much has THAT Contributed?

The ocean exchanges 12 times the man-made contribution of CO2 per year. How ACCURATE is that source/sink measurement and what variables could cause it to change?

But more importantly -- what does it MEAN if we don't know day to day, month to month PH variances in the ecosystems that we are concerned about. I posted the chart -- no comments. Guess you're not concerned about 80% NATURAL monthly variations in PH.

Go to Wikipedia, finally, Fatass and CrosstardPunkhole! You don't read websites or posts. so go to Wikipedia, and THEN ask people at forums to explain particulars:

Carbonic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Theoretical calculations show that the presence of even a single molecule of water causes carbonic acid to revert to carbon dioxide and water. In the absence of water, the dissociation of gaseous carbonic acid is predicted to be very slow, with a half-life of 180,000 years.[6]

By the time rainwater hits the ground, it may be pH 5.5. If you have a question, research it on the internet, post some of your own links, or just explain to somebody at your local Log Cabin Club chaper, how you have a blockage, about using search engines, sit on each others' laps, and spin.

As for SLR, read the threads, AT THIS FORUM, hit search, and THEN ask good questions, instead of posting rants, with your heads fresh out of each others' queer assholes.

First, I'm not going to address your repressed homosexuality because I don't think there's anything wrong with it. You need to come to terms with it on your own time and I'm sure you will

Second, do you read the articles you link to? Do you read your own posts?

"Theoretical calculations show that the presence of even a single molecule of water causes carbonic acid to revert to carbon dioxide and water."

So, as an acid that able to change ocean pH Carbonic acid is just terrible ineffective.