Gibson Guitars Settles With DoJ...

[daveman]

you think laws are optional?

the reason the money isn't there is they thought they could do what they wanted to.

that's personal responsibility for their actions.

Why wasn't Martin Guitars, who bought the same wood, charged?

For that matter, why wasn't Gibson charged? Usually when a law is broken, charges are filed.

you know they settled and paid fines, right?

Yeah. You know no charges were ever filed, right?

Isn't that what happens when the law is broken? Charges are filed?

Didn't they teach you that at lawyer school?

 

[daveman]

From the OP. Sooo, Gibson broke the law and settled by paying $350,000. Laws are laws. Why didn't they admit guilt and settle in the beginning rather than wasting $2.5 million to fight it?

Why wasn't Martin Guitars raided? They use the same wood as Gibson.

Oh, yes, this is why:

It’s worth pointing out that Henry E. Juszkiewicz, Gibson’s Chief Executive Officer, is a donor to a couple of Republican politicians. According to the Open Secrets database, Juszkiewicz donated $2000 to Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R-TN07) last year, as well as $1500 to Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-TN). Juszkiewicz also has donated $10,000 to the Consumer Electronics Association, a PAC that contributed $92.5k to Republican candidates last year, as opposed to $72k to Democrats. (The CEA did, however, contribute more to Democrats in the 2008 election cycle.)

When warrants as ridiculous such as these are issued and executed, there appears no other reason than because the company or individual at hand is being targeted, not because there is any sort of wrongdoing. As a company, Gibson is a legendary. They’ve done nothing wrong, except, apparently, deigning to have a Republican CEO.

The plot thickens, however.

One of Gibson’s leading competitors is C.F. Martin & Company. The C.E.O., Chris Martin IV, is a long-time Democratic supporter, with $35,400 in contributions to Democratic candidates and the DNC over the past couple of election cycles. According to C.F. Martin’s catalog, several of their guitars contain “East Indian Rosewood.” In case you were wondering, that is the exact same wood in at least ten of Gibson’s guitars.​

Plus, Gibson is a non-union shop. Martin is union.

Daveman, did Martin have a license for the import? Was it wood from a sustainable system? Was it poached? Do you know the answers? I doubt it. Do yourself a favor and learn the facts, from all sides, before making such a tin foil post.

Ahem.

 

[Truthmatters]

Gibson Guitar Corporation has agreed to pay $350,000 in penalties to settle federal charges that it illegally imported ebony Madagascar

the first line in the ops article says eboney.

the OP couldnt even get the wood kind correct.




http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/06/gibson-guitar-settles-claim-over-imported-ebony/

 

[Dick Tuck]

USDOJ: Gibson Guitar Corp. Agrees to Resolve Investigation into Lacey Act Violations

The criminal enforcement agreement includes a detailed statement of facts describing the conduct for which Gibson accepts and acknowledges responsibility. The facts establish the following:

Madagascar Ebony is a slow-growing tree species and supplies are considered threatened in its native environment due to over-exploitation. Both legal and illegal logging of Madagascar Ebony and other tree species have significantly reduced Madagascar’s forest cover. Madagascar’s forests are home to many rare endemic species of plants and animals . The harvest of ebony in and export of unfinished ebony from, Madagascar has been banned since 2006.

Gibson purchased “fingerboard blanks,” consisting of sawn boards of Madagascar ebony, for use in manufacturing guitars. The Madagascar ebony fingerboard blanks were ordered from a supplier who obtained them from an exporter in Madagascar. Gibson’s supplier continued to receive Madagascar ebony fingerboard blanks from its Madagascar exporter after the 2006 ban. The Madagascar exporter did not have authority to export ebony fingerboard blanks after the law issued in Madagascar in 2006.

In 2008, an employee of Gibson participated in a trip to Madagascar, sponsored by a non-profit organization. Participants on the trip, including the Gibson employee, were told that a law passed in 2006 in Madagascar banned the harvest of ebony and the export of any ebony products that were not in finished form. They were further told by trip organizers that instrument parts, such as fingerboard blanks, would be considered unfinished and therefore illegal to export under the 2006 law. Participants also visited the facility of the exporter in Madagascar, from which Gibson’s supplier sourced its Madagascar ebony, and were informed that the wood at the facility was under seizure at that time and could not be moved.

After the Gibson employee returned from Madagascar with this information, he conveyed the information to superiors and others at Gibson. The information received by the Gibson employee during the June 2008 trip, and sent to company management by the employee and others following the June 2008 trip, was not further investigated or acted upon prior to Gibson continuing to place orders with its supplier. Gibson received four shipments of Madagascar ebony fingerboard blanks from its supplier between October 2008 and September 2009.​

So Gibson agreed to this statements of fact. Fine. Only a moron would claim this was a political attack, but that doesn't stop some wingnut morons.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Gibson Guitar Corporation has agreed to pay $350,000 in penalties to settle federal charges that it illegally imported ebony Madagascar

the first line in the ops article says eboney.

the OP couldnt even get the wood kind correct.




Gibson Guitar Settles Claim Over Imported Ebony - NYTimes.com

Plus forfeiture of $261,844 of the seized Madagascar ebony.

 

[daveman]

Again: Why wasn't the Dem donor and union shop Martin Guitar Company harassed over Madagascar wood imports?

 

[Katzndogz]

Environmental laws were not violated. Had the fingerboards been made overseas they would be legal to import regardless of what would they were made of or how many environmental laws were violated. Only because they were made here with American labor, they became illegal.

Gibson should have packed up and moved the whole company to India.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Again: Why wasn't the Dem donor and union shop Martin Guitar Company harassed over Madagascar wood imports?

Daveman, the Gibson case isn't about buying wood. It's about buying it from an illegal source and in violation to Madagascar law. I understand that you like to keep everything simple, but Gibson signed off on the facts presented above, and payed a $300,000 fine, a $50,000 community service contribution to Fish & Wildlife, and forfeiture of$261,844 Madagascar ebony.

If Martin committed any violation of the Lacey Act, I would expect them to be punished as well. But the only thing your pea brain can come up with is, "well, they buy wood too", and blame Obama.

 

[daveman]

Environmental laws were not violated. Had the fingerboards been made overseas they would be legal to import regardless of what would they were made of or how many environmental laws were violated. Only because they were made here with American labor, they became illegal.

Gibson should have packed up and moved the whole company to India.

Well, it's not like Obama gives a damn about keeping jobs here.

 

[daveman]

Again: Why wasn't the Dem donor and union shop Martin Guitar Company harassed over Madagascar wood imports?

Daveman, the Gibson case isn't about buying wood. It's about buying it from an illegal source and in violation to Madagascar law. I understand that you like to keep everything simple, but Gibson signed off on the facts presented above, and payed a $300,000 fine, a $50,000 community service contribution to Fish & Wildlife, and forfeiture of$261,844 Madagascar ebony.

If Martin committed any violation of the Lacey Act, I would expect them to be punished as well. But the only thing your pea brain can come up with is, "well, they buy wood too, and blame Obama".

Gibson is a non-union shop and a GOP donor.

Martin is a union shop and a Dem donor.

But you just keep pretending the DoJ is interested in justice and not punishing business for not supporting Dems and unions.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Again: Why wasn't the Dem donor and union shop Martin Guitar Company harassed over Madagascar wood imports?

Daveman, the Gibson case isn't about buying wood. It's about buying it from an illegal source and in violation to Madagascar law. I understand that you like to keep everything simple, but Gibson signed off on the facts presented above, and payed a $300,000 fine, a $50,000 community service contribution to Fish & Wildlife, and forfeiture of$261,844 Madagascar ebony.

If Martin committed any violation of the Lacey Act, I would expect them to be punished as well. But the only thing your pea brain can come up with is, "well, they buy wood too, and blame Obama".

Gibson is a non-union shop and a GOP donor.

Martin is a union shop and a Dem donor.

But you just keep pretending the DoJ is interested in justice and not punishing business for not supporting Dems and unions.

Except moron, you've provided no evidence that Martin is in any violation of the Lacey Act. All you have is, "well they buy wood too". Please present evidence that Martin is in violation of any law. Gibson admitted it broke the law. FTR, I'd stack my Gibson accoustic up to any Martin, and it costs about half as much.

 

[Katzndogz]

Gibson violated no law. It was completely legal under the laws of India to sell the wood. There isn't a single issue about the wood. It was the manufacture of the wood into a finished product. It is not illegal to import the same wood already made into fingerboards. The DOJ outright told Gibson if they moved the manufacture of the fingerboards to Madagascar their problems would go away.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Gibson violated no law. It was completely legal under the laws of India to sell the wood. There isn't a single issue about the wood. It was the manufacture of the wood into a finished product. It is not illegal to import the same wood already made into fingerboards. The DOJ outright told Gibson if they moved the manufacture of the fingerboards to Madagascar their problems would go away.

You are dense. Of course, if the fingerbaords were finished in Madagascar, Gibson wouldn't have violated the Lacey act. That's the point. Madagascar law only allows export of finished ebony products. BTW, the Lacey Act was enacted by McKinley, a Republican.

As for whether they violated the Lacey Act, they admitted they did.

USDOJ: Gibson Guitar Corp. Agrees to Resolve Investigation into Lacey Act Violations

The criminal enforcement agreement includes a detailed statement of facts describing the conduct for which Gibson accepts and acknowledges responsibility. The facts establish the following:

Madagascar Ebony is a slow-growing tree species and supplies are considered threatened in its native environment due to over-exploitation. Both legal and illegal logging of Madagascar Ebony and other tree species have significantly reduced Madagascar’s forest cover. Madagascar’s forests are home to many rare endemic species of plants and animals . The harvest of ebony in and export of unfinished ebony from, Madagascar has been banned since 2006.

Gibson purchased “fingerboard blanks,” consisting of sawn boards of Madagascar ebony, for use in manufacturing guitars. The Madagascar ebony fingerboard blanks were ordered from a supplier who obtained them from an exporter in Madagascar. Gibson’s supplier continued to receive Madagascar ebony fingerboard blanks from its Madagascar exporter after the 2006 ban. The Madagascar exporter did not have authority to export ebony fingerboard blanks after the law issued in Madagascar in 2006.

In 2008, an employee of Gibson participated in a trip to Madagascar, sponsored by a non-profit organization. Participants on the trip, including the Gibson employee, were told that a law passed in 2006 in Madagascar banned the harvest of ebony and the export of any ebony products that were not in finished form. They were further told by trip organizers that instrument parts, such as fingerboard blanks, would be considered unfinished and therefore illegal to export under the 2006 law. Participants also visited the facility of the exporter in Madagascar, from which Gibson’s supplier sourced its Madagascar ebony, and were informed that the wood at the facility was under seizure at that time and could not be moved.

After the Gibson employee returned from Madagascar with this information, he conveyed the information to superiors and others at Gibson. The information received by the Gibson employee during the June 2008 trip, and sent to company management by the employee and others following the June 2008 trip, was not further investigated or acted upon prior to Gibson continuing to place orders with its supplier. Gibson received four shipments of Madagascar ebony fingerboard blanks from its supplier between October 2008 and September 2009.​

 

[sitarro]

Gibson Guitar Corporation has agreed to pay $350,000 in penalties to settle federal charges that it illegally imported ebony Madagascar

the first line in the ops article says eboney.

the OP couldnt even get the wood kind correct.




Gibson Guitar Settles Claim Over Imported Ebony - NYTimes.com

What's e bone y.....were you trying to say ebony in you criticism of someone else screwing up?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

From the OP. Sooo, Gibson broke the law and settled by paying $350,000. Laws are laws. Why didn't they admit guilt and settle in the beginning rather than wasting $2.5 million to fight it?

Gibson did not break the law, the government alleged that they broke it, and extorted half a million dollars from them. This is money that is not going to be used by Gibson to make guitars, or anything else, This proves just how much Obama is worried about jobs.

That's Gibson's claim. The government's claim is they were were importing rare and exotic wood without an import license. So they settled, and Gibson claimed they didn't really break any law. How hard is it? When you import exotic and rare wood, you need a license, and the only licenses granted are to countries that have sustainable harvesting. Nothing to me seems unreasonable about that.

In this country we have this quaint way of doing things that says you are innocent until you are proven guilty. There were no criminal charges filed, there was no court case, no one was proven guilty, and no one admitted guilt.All of that can be summed up in 4 words, Gibson broke no law. You can quote anyone you want that says otherwise, they are all blowing smoke.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

you think laws are optional?

the reason the money isn't there is they thought they could do what they wanted to.

that's personal responsibility for their actions.

Why wasn't Martin Guitars, who bought the same wood, charged?

For that matter, why wasn't Gibson charged? Usually when a law is broken, charges are filed.

you know they settled and paid fines, right?

Let us assume you are a lawyer. Let us further assume that you have a client that is facing a full scale legal battle with the federal government over an interpretation of obscure federal law that has never been applied the way the government currently wants to interpret it. Suppose one of the prosecutors comes by and points out to you that, as a federal prosecutor, he has the ability to print money, the resources to take on Microsoft, and enough staff to literally bury you in paperwork for the next 20 years. He points out that fighting these charges will take millions of dollars just to pay your fees, will disrupt their business, and have the IRS digging through their taxes for the last 20 years looking for other times they skirted the law by not doing what they were never before required to do. He then offers you a chance to pay a fine, donate a little money to the environmentalists that urged him to bring the case in the first place, and have all that hassle disappear.

What would you recommend to your client?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

USDOJ: Gibson Guitar Corp. Agrees to Resolve Investigation into Lacey Act Violations

The criminal enforcement agreement includes a detailed statement of facts describing the conduct for which Gibson accepts and acknowledges responsibility. The facts establish the following:

Madagascar Ebony is a slow-growing tree species and supplies are considered threatened in its native environment due to over-exploitation. Both legal and illegal logging of Madagascar Ebony and other tree species have significantly reduced Madagascar’s forest cover. Madagascar’s forests are home to many rare endemic species of plants and animals . The harvest of ebony in and export of unfinished ebony from, Madagascar has been banned since 2006.

Gibson purchased “fingerboard blanks,” consisting of sawn boards of Madagascar ebony, for use in manufacturing guitars. The Madagascar ebony fingerboard blanks were ordered from a supplier who obtained them from an exporter in Madagascar. Gibson’s supplier continued to receive Madagascar ebony fingerboard blanks from its Madagascar exporter after the 2006 ban. The Madagascar exporter did not have authority to export ebony fingerboard blanks after the law issued in Madagascar in 2006.

In 2008, an employee of Gibson participated in a trip to Madagascar, sponsored by a non-profit organization. Participants on the trip, including the Gibson employee, were told that a law passed in 2006 in Madagascar banned the harvest of ebony and the export of any ebony products that were not in finished form. They were further told by trip organizers that instrument parts, such as fingerboard blanks, would be considered unfinished and therefore illegal to export under the 2006 law. Participants also visited the facility of the exporter in Madagascar, from which Gibson’s supplier sourced its Madagascar ebony, and were informed that the wood at the facility was under seizure at that time and could not be moved.

After the Gibson employee returned from Madagascar with this information, he conveyed the information to superiors and others at Gibson. The information received by the Gibson employee during the June 2008 trip, and sent to company management by the employee and others following the June 2008 trip, was not further investigated or acted upon prior to Gibson continuing to place orders with its supplier. Gibson received four shipments of Madagascar ebony fingerboard blanks from its supplier between October 2008 and September 2009.​

So Gibson agreed to this statements of fact. Fine. Only a moron would claim this was a political attack, but that doesn't stop some wingnut morons.

Gibson agreed to let the government say whatever it wanted to? Can you tell me how they would have stopped them?

 

[Dick Tuck]

Gibson did not break the law, the government alleged that they broke it, and extorted half a million dollars from them. This is money that is not going to be used by Gibson to make guitars, or anything else, This proves just how much Obama is worried about jobs.

That's Gibson's claim. The government's claim is they were were importing rare and exotic wood without an import license. So they settled, and Gibson claimed they didn't really break any law. How hard is it? When you import exotic and rare wood, you need a license, and the only licenses granted are to countries that have sustainable harvesting. Nothing to me seems unreasonable about that.

In this country we have this quaint way of doing things that says you are innocent until you are proven guilty. There were no criminal charges filed, there was no court case, no one was proven guilty, and no one admitted guilt.All of that can be summed up in 4 words, Gibson broke no law. You can quote anyone you want that says otherwise, they are all blowing smoke.

Gibson admitted it violated the Lacey Act. They pleaded guilty. They paid the fine, community service contribution, and agreed to forfeit the wood. What part of that don't you get?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

That's Gibson's claim. The government's claim is they were were importing rare and exotic wood without an import license. So they settled, and Gibson claimed they didn't really break any law. How hard is it? When you import exotic and rare wood, you need a license, and the only licenses granted are to countries that have sustainable harvesting. Nothing to me seems unreasonable about that.

In this country we have this quaint way of doing things that says you are innocent until you are proven guilty. There were no criminal charges filed, there was no court case, no one was proven guilty, and no one admitted guilt.All of that can be summed up in 4 words, Gibson broke no law. You can quote anyone you want that says otherwise, they are all blowing smoke.

Gibson admitted it violated the Lacey Act. They pleaded guilty. They paid the fine, community service contribution, and agreed to forfeit the wood. What part of that don't you get?

No, the government insists they did, Gibson doesn't have enough money to fight the case in court. There is a difference, learn it.

 

[Dick Tuck]

USDOJ: Gibson Guitar Corp. Agrees to Resolve Investigation into Lacey Act Violations

The criminal enforcement agreement includes a detailed statement of facts describing the conduct for which Gibson accepts and acknowledges responsibility. The facts establish the following:

Madagascar Ebony is a slow-growing tree species and supplies are considered threatened in its native environment due to over-exploitation. Both legal and illegal logging of Madagascar Ebony and other tree species have significantly reduced Madagascar’s forest cover. Madagascar’s forests are home to many rare endemic species of plants and animals . The harvest of ebony in and export of unfinished ebony from, Madagascar has been banned since 2006.

Gibson purchased “fingerboard blanks,” consisting of sawn boards of Madagascar ebony, for use in manufacturing guitars. The Madagascar ebony fingerboard blanks were ordered from a supplier who obtained them from an exporter in Madagascar. Gibson’s supplier continued to receive Madagascar ebony fingerboard blanks from its Madagascar exporter after the 2006 ban. The Madagascar exporter did not have authority to export ebony fingerboard blanks after the law issued in Madagascar in 2006.

In 2008, an employee of Gibson participated in a trip to Madagascar, sponsored by a non-profit organization. Participants on the trip, including the Gibson employee, were told that a law passed in 2006 in Madagascar banned the harvest of ebony and the export of any ebony products that were not in finished form. They were further told by trip organizers that instrument parts, such as fingerboard blanks, would be considered unfinished and therefore illegal to export under the 2006 law. Participants also visited the facility of the exporter in Madagascar, from which Gibson’s supplier sourced its Madagascar ebony, and were informed that the wood at the facility was under seizure at that time and could not be moved.

After the Gibson employee returned from Madagascar with this information, he conveyed the information to superiors and others at Gibson. The information received by the Gibson employee during the June 2008 trip, and sent to company management by the employee and others following the June 2008 trip, was not further investigated or acted upon prior to Gibson continuing to place orders with its supplier. Gibson received four shipments of Madagascar ebony fingerboard blanks from its supplier between October 2008 and September 2009.​

So Gibson agreed to this statements of fact. Fine. Only a moron would claim this was a political attack, but that doesn't stop some wingnut morons.

Gibson agreed to let the government say whatever it wanted to? Can you tell me how they would have stopped them?

They signed the agreement to accepting those facts, and agreeing to the fact they violated the Lacey Act. They don't dispute the fact that they signed the settlement that stipulated the violation shown above. They don't dispute that they paid the fine, did a financial community service, and forfeited the illegally imported wood.

If this is the kind of bullshit the tea baggers want to rally around, it's easy to see why their little lemmings.