Zone1 Getting the jump on the Easter debates.

[rstrats]

Mark 16:2 says that the women came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

 

[onefour1]

Mark 16:2 says that the women came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

Interesting. This seems to go against John 20:1 where it says that Mary came when it was yet dark.

 

[onefour1]

I asked AI the following question:

Did Mary Magdalene arrive at the tomb on Sunday while it was dark or when the sun had risen?

Here is its answer:

Mary Magdalene arrived at the tomb on Sunday while it was still dark.

According to John 20:1, "Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb." This is the clearest and most direct statement from the Gospels on the timing of her arrival.

While other Gospel accounts mention the women arriving after sunrise (e.g., Mark 16:2: "Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise..."), John’s account specifically places Mary Magdalene at the tomb before dawn, during the pre-dawn darkness. This detail is significant because it emphasizes her early devotion and the unexpected nature of her discovery.

Her report to Peter and John—using the plural "we do not know where they have laid him" (John 20:2)—suggests she was not alone, but she was the first to arrive and the first to see the empty tomb. The other women may have arrived shortly after, as the sun rose.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Maybe. I won't argue the point.
I always thought it was a little silly for Christians and Jews to argue about what the first day of the week is when the days are named after Roman gods that neither believe in.

Not exactly true. What Roman God are each of the days named after?

 

[Woodznutz]

I don't think any verse tells us that Jesus was in the tomb for 72 hours. Matthew 12:40 tells us the following:

Matthew 12:40
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

To if Jesus were in heart of the earth for a partial night or partial day I think this would count as him being in the tomb for that night or that day. Jesus was crucified and then placed into the tomb before sunset and thus was in the tomb on that day before the sun set. I don't think Jesus rose on Sunday morning after the sun came up. I think he either rose on Sunday night which came before Sunday day or he rose very early before sunrise while it was still dark. I think this would count as Sunday night that he was in the tomb for part of the night. So I see it as:

Thursday day
Friday night
Friday day
Saturday night
Saturday day
Sunday night

This gives us 3 days and 3 nights. Mary in John 20:1 tells us that Mary came to the sepulchre before the sun came up when it was yet dark:

John 20:1
1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Jesus had already risen by this time. If Jesus rose sometime during Sunday night then the 3 days and 3 nights would take us back to Thursday day when Jesus entered the tomb. If Jesus had risen on Saturday day then it would take us back to Thursday night, and so on and so on. But we know Jesus was crucified during the day and they hurried to get the crucifixions finished before sunset which was to bring on the next day which was a sabbath. So logic tells me that Jesus likely resurrected in a night if he was placed in the tomb during the day before sunset.

The whole narrative of John 20 suggests that the events took place just after the Sabbath was ended, 'early on the first day of the week', not in the dead of night. As stated earlier the Greek word for "yet" should be translated as now, which reflects "a change from a previous state", that state being light; it was formerly light but is now dark.

 

[Woodznutz]

Mark 16:2 says that the women came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

John 20 says that it was dark. I think we have a problem here.

 

[onefour1]

The whole narrative of John 20 suggests that the events took place just after the Sabbath was ended, 'early on the first day of the week', not in the dead of night. As stated earlier the Greek word for "yet" should be translated as now, which reflects "a change from a previous state", that state being light; it was formerly light but is now dark.

Lets be clear on when the sabbath ended which was the seventh day of the week. It ended at sunset. The first day of the week started at sunset and first went through the night and then through the day up until the following sunset. It didn't start at 12:00 am midnight. So night came first and then daytime came after for each day.

Now lets look at the translation of John 20:1. Below is BibleHub's interlinear translation of the verse. The Greek word for "dark" is "σκοτία" and the Greek word for "yet" is "ἔτι". If you click these links, you will see that these words are translated correctly. Thus, according to John 20:1, Mary did come to the tomb when it was YET(or still) DARK.

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[td]

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3588 [e]

1 ​

Tē

1 ​

Τῇ

1 ​

-

1 ​

Art-DFS

[/td]

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[td]
1161 [e]
de
δὲ
Now
Conj

[/td]

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[td]
1520 [e]
mia
μιᾷ
the first [day]
Adj-DFS

[/td]

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[td]
3588 [e]
tōn
τῶν
of the
Art-GNP

[/td]

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[td]
4521 [e]
sabbatōn
σαββάτων ,
week
N-GNP

[/td]

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[td]
3137 [e]
Maria
Μαρία
Mary
N-NFS

[/td]

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[td]
3588 [e]
hē
ἡ
-
Art-NFS

[/td]

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[td]
3094 [e]
Magdalēnē
Μαγδαληνὴ
Magdalene
N-NFS

[/td]

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[td]
2064 [e]
erchetai
ἔρχεται
comes
V-PIM/P-3S

[/td]

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[td]
4404 [e]
prōi
πρωῒ ,
early
Adv

[/td]

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[td]
4653 [e]
skotias
σκοτίας
dark
N-GFS

[/td]

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[td]
2089 [e]
eti
ἔτι
still
Adv

[/td]

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[td]
1510 [e]
ousēs
οὔσης ,
it being
V-PPA-GFS

[/td]

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[td]
1519 [e]
eis
εἰς
to
Prep

[/td]

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[td]
3588 [e]
to
τὸ
the
Art-ANS

[/td]

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[td]
3419 [e]
mnēmeion
μνημεῖον ,
tomb
N-ANS

[/td]

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[td]
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj

[/td]

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[td]
991 [e]
blepei
βλέπει
she sees
V-PIA-3S

[/td]

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[td]
3588 [e]
ton
τὸν
the
Art-AMS

[/td]

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[td]
3037 [e]
lithon
λίθον
stone
N-AMS

[/td]

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[td]
142 [e]
ērmenon
ἠρμένον
having been removed
V-RPM/P-AMS

[/td]

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[td]
1537 [e]
ek
ἐκ
from
Prep

[/td]

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[td]
3588 [e]
tou
τοῦ
the
Art-GNS

[/td]

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[td]
3419 [e]
mnēmeiou
μνημείου .
tomb
N-GNS

[/td]

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[td]


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[onefour1]

John 20 says that it was dark. I think we have a problem here.

OR as the AI post I suggested above says, Mary may have come earlier than those who were with her later. Mary may have come while it was YET DARK and the other women may have met her there after sunrise. Thus giving two accounts on the timing of their arrivals but not being totally clear about it.

 

[Woodznutz]

OR as the AI post I suggested above says, Mary may have come earlier than those who were with her later. Mary may have come while it was YET DARK and the other women may have met her there after sunrise. Thus giving two accounts on the timing of their arrivals but not being totally clear about it.

I think the translators tweaked the story to support a Sunday morning resurrection followed by changing the Sabbath day to Sunday.

I believe Mary and the others bought the spices on the 'preparation day' (Friday) after the 'high Sabbath' was ended. Then they rested on the weekly Sabbath (Saturday).When that Sabbath ended they went to the tomb hoping somehow to prepare Jesus' body as they knew that his tomb was sealed and guarded by Roman soldiers.

It makes more sense to me that all of this activity would have taken place on Sunday morning/evening early rather than in the dead of night. Mary M. would have had to go to the houses of the disciples and wake them up.

"Yet" can be translated as "now", as Strong's Hebrew dictionary reveals.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS G2089:
ἔτι, adverb, as yet, yet, still;
1. of time;
a. of a thing which went on formerly, whereas now a different state of things exists or has begun to exist: added to a participle,

Thus, as it was formerly light it is now getting dark.

 

[onefour1]

I think the translators tweaked the story to support a Sunday morning resurrection followed by changing the Sabbath day to Sunday.

I believe Mary and the others bought the spices on the 'preparation day' (Friday) after the 'high Sabbath' was ended. Then they rested on the weekly Sabbath (Saturday).When that Sabbath ended they went to the tomb hoping somehow to prepare Jesus' body as they knew that his tomb was sealed and guarded by Roman soldiers.

It makes more sense to me that all of this activity could have taken place on Sunday morning/evening early rather than in the dead of night. Mary M. would have had to go to the houses of the disciples and wake them up.

"Yet" can be translated as "now", as Strong's Hebrew dictionary reveals.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS G2089:
ἔτι, adverb, as yet, yet, still;
1. of time;
a. of a thing which went on formerly, whereas now a different state of things exists or has begun to exist: added to a participle,

Thus, as it was formerly light it is now getting dark.

I agree that the coming to the tomb by the women mentioned in John 20 and Mark 16 was early in the morning on Sunday or the first day of the week. I just think that it is possible that Mary may have come earlier to the tomb while it was yet dark while the other women, Mary the mother of James and Salome could have come a little later around sunrise. This is not to say that Jesus resurrected on that morning. All we know is that he was resurrected before these women arrived. He could have been resurrected in the night but if Jesus was placed in the tomb on a day just before sunset, I think we can count that day as him being in the tomb. I don't believe we can count him being in the tomb on Sunday or the first day of the week from sunrise on. So if he rose on the night of the first day of the week, which came before the daytime, we could count that night as being in the tomb but rising from the tomb at some time during the night. So we can count a day as the time he entered the tomb and a night if he resurrected during the night. So that would leave us to full day/night times left to account for. What seems logical to me is that if we do count the day that he entered the tomb and not the night of that same day, we would then have to have a night that we account for but not the day of that same day. So if Jesus entered the tomb on Thursday during the day then a night would have to be accounted for with its day being counted. So if Jesus was in the the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights, it would start with one day and then have two consecutive night and days, and then end with a night. So I tend to lean toward Jesus rising from the tomb during a night which I do lean toward the night of the first day of the week which comes before the day of the first day of the week since day began at sunset. So the following makes sense to me:

Jesus enter the tomb on Thursday toward the end of the day.
Jesus is in the tomb on Friday night and Friday day.
Jesus is in the tomb on Saturday or the Sabbath night and day.
Jesus is in the tomb on the First day of the week or Sunday night and resurrects while it is night.

If Thursday during the day is counted, then Jesus would have to have resurrected in the night to complete the 3 days and 3 nights prophesy. So this would mean that he didn't resurrected on the day of the Sabbath or Friday during the day. If Mary Magdalene arrived at the tomb and found it open and Jesus had already risen while it was yet dark, then this would mean that Jesus likely rose sometime during the night of the first day of the week or Sunday since Sunday night comes before Sunday day.

 

[Woodznutz]

I agree that the coming to the tomb by the women mentioned in John 20 and Mark 16 was early in the morning on Sunday or the first day of the week. I just think that it is possible that Mary may have come earlier to the tomb while it was yet dark while the other women, Mary the mother of James and Salome could have come a little later around sunrise. This is not to say that Jesus resurrected on that morning. All we know is that he was resurrected before these women arrived. He could have been resurrected in the night but if Jesus was placed in the tomb on a day just before sunset, I think we can count that day as him being in the tomb. I don't believe we can count him being in the tomb on Sunday or the first day of the week from sunrise on. So if he rose on the night of the first day of the week, which came before the daytime, we could count that night as being in the tomb but rising from the tomb at some time during the night. So we can count a day as the time he entered the tomb and a night if he resurrected during the night. So that would leave us to full day/night times left to account for. What seems logical to me is that if we do count the day that he entered the tomb and not the night of that same day, we would then have to have a night that we account for but not the day of that same day. So if Jesus entered the tomb on Thursday during the day then a night would have to be accounted for with its day being counted. So if Jesus was in the the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights, it would start with one day and then have two consecutive night and days, and then end with a night. So I tend to lean toward Jesus rising from the tomb during a night which I do lean toward the night of the first day of the week which comes before the day of the first day of the week since day began at sunset. So the following makes sense to me:

Jesus enter the tomb on Thursday toward the end of the day.
Jesus is in the tomb on Friday night and Friday day.
Jesus is in the tomb on Saturday or the Sabbath night and day.
Jesus is in the tomb on the First day of the week or Sunday night and resurrects while it is night.

If Thursday during the day is counted, then Jesus would have to have resurrected in the night to complete the 3 days and 3 nights prophesy. So this would mean that he didn't resurrected on the day of the Sabbath or Friday during the day. If Mary Magdalene arrived at the tomb and found it open and Jesus had already risen while it was yet dark, then this would mean that Jesus likely rose sometime during the night of the first day of the week or Sunday since Sunday night comes before Sunday day.

Jesus's statement to the Jews was the only definitive evidence we have, He repeated it regarding the destruction of the "temple" referred to himself. He further defined it as being the same time span that Jonah was in the belly of the fish/whale, which was 72 consecutive hours. There is no evidence that partial days were counted as a full day in Jonah's time. Jesus may have stated it in the way that he did so there would be no misunderstanding.

This as well.

The phrase "Are there not twelve hours in a day?" originates from the Bible, specifically John 11:9, where Jesus refers to the twelve daylight hours available for work and safety. This concept emphasizes that as long as one walks during these hours, they will not stumble because they can see the light of the world. The twelve hours represent a traditional division of daytime, which is significant in various cultural and religious contexts, including the notion of halachic hours, which are based on the amount of daylight available.

Bible Hub+3

 

[onefour1]

Jesus's statement to the Jews was the only definitive evidence we have, He repeated it regarding the destruction of the "temple" referred to himself. He further defined it as being the same time span that Jonah was in the belly of the fish/whale, which was 72 consecutive hours. There is no evidence that partial days were counted as a full day in Jonah's time. Jesus may have stated it in the way that he did so there would be no misunderstanding.

This as well.

The phrase "Are there not twelve hours in a day?" originates from the Bible, specifically John 11:9, where Jesus refers to the twelve daylight hours available for work and safety. This concept emphasizes that as long as one walks during these hours, they will not stumble because they can see the light of the world. The twelve hours represent a traditional division of daytime, which is significant in various cultural and religious contexts, including the notion of halachic hours, which are based on the amount of daylight available.
Bible Hub+3

Can you show me where it states 3 FULL days and 3 FULL nights for either Jesus or Jonah? I don't believe that when they always mention a night and a day that it is 12 hours each.

 

[Woodznutz]

Can you show me where it states 3 FULL days and 3 FULL nights for either Jesus or Jonah? I don't believe that when they always mention a night and a day that it is 12 hours each.

I haven't found anything to dispel this time frame. Three days and three nights seems pretty definitive.

 

[rstrats]

I asked AI the following question:

Did Mary Magdalene arrive at the tomb on Sunday while it was dark or when the sun had risen?

Here is its answer:

Mary Magdalene arrived at the tomb on Sunday while it was still dark.

According to John 20:1, "Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb." This is the clearest and most direct statement from the Gospels on the timing of her arrival.

While other Gospel accounts mention the women arriving after sunrise (e.g., Mark 16:2: "Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise..."), John’s account specifically places Mary Magdalene at the tomb before dawn, during the pre-dawn darkness. This detail is significant because it emphasizes her early devotion and the unexpected nature of her discovery.

Her report to Peter and John—using the plural "we do not know where they have laid him" (John 20:2)—suggests she was not alone, but she was the first to arrive and the first to see the empty tomb. The other women may have arrived shortly after, as the sun rose.

But if you just go by the account, she seemed to leave to go to the disciples right after seeing that the stone had been removed. So, if the women had arrived after that, as you noted, then when Mary got to Peter, how could she have told him that "we don't know where they have laid Him?

 

[Woodznutz]

But if you just go by the account, she seemed to leave to go to the disciples right after seeing that the stone had been removed. So, if the women had arrived after that, as you noted, then when Mary got to Peter, how could she have told him that "we don't know where they have laid Him?

On a hunch I looked up "sunrise" in Strong's Concordance of the KJV. The word "sunrise" doesn't appear in any chapter or verse of the KJV. So, as I suspected it was added by the translators in other versions to support the Catholic sunrise/Sunday resurrection of Jesus. It also gives legitimacy to the pagan "Easter" celebration. See my post #29.

PRIMARY RESULTS


[th width="656px"]
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Adv. Options

[td]
WORD SEARCH

[/th]
[th width="575px"]
sunrise
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the KJV.

[/th]​

There are no concordance results for sunrise in the KJV.

See results from these other Bibles:

7 results in the NKJV


8 results in the NLT


13 results in the NIV


10 results in the ESV


8 results in the CSB


9 results in the NASB20


7 results in the NASB95


19 results in the LSB


10 results in the AMP


8 results in the NET


7 results in the RSV


17 results in the HNV


3 results in the BYou can also browse through the various dictionaries​

 

[onefour1]

But if you just go by the account, she seemed to leave to go to the disciples right after seeing that the stone had been removed. So, if the women had arrived after that, as you noted, then when Mary got to Peter, how could she have told him that "we don't know where they have laid Him?

The account is a bit confusing. My guess is that Mary arrived while it was yet dark but it must have been close to sunrise. Maybe she waited there until the other women arrived since they all planned to be there with their spices. Upon noticing that the rock was removed from the tomb it says that Mary M. ran to Peter. It seems to me that she not only saw the rock removed but also went inside the tomb else how could she know for sure the body was gone. And the "we" tells us that the other women were present when she spoke with Peter. So my guess is that she arrived first while yet dark, then as the sun began to arise the other women showed up and they all saw that the rock was removed and went inside and also saw that the body was gone. It was after this that they ran to Peter and told them what had happened. Maybe Mary said she arrived while yet dark while the other women said they arrived at sunrise. Maybe this is why we have differing accounts. Another explanation might be that Mark or John got the account wrong. John tends to only mention Mary M. by name by still uses the plural, "we" when they showed up to tell Peter about the rock and the missing body.