Genesis

[Newtonian]

I welcome any comment on any verse or account in the Bible book of Genesis by anyone - I prefer, however, that respect for others of differing beliefs be shown. I invite you all to join those of my religion (Jehovah's Witnesses) in reading our assigned Bible reading from week to week (this week is Genesis chapters 34,35). Even atheists may choose to read the Bible for various reasons - one being that it is the most widely circulated book on this planet, and in the most languages.

However, any question or comment on any verse in Genesis is welcome.

I will start off with one question all of Jehovah's Witnesses on this planet will be commenting on at our mid-week meeting,this week to wit:

Who was Deborah, and what can we learn from her? (Genesis 35:8; 24:59)

Of course, I will post my comments on this thread - but I welcome anyone else's comments about Deborah in Genesis.

I will start with a link to our Bible dictionary on Deborah in Genesis (which also includes the other Deborah in Judges chapters 4 & 5):

Deborah — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

So Deborah accompanied Rebekah, Isaac's wife, for some 125 years, from Isaac's marriage until her death, which is the setting of this verse:

Genesis 35:8
Later Debʹo·rah,+ Re·bekʹah’s nurse, died and was buried at the foot of Bethʹel under an oak. So he named it Alʹlon-bacʹuth.*

Our Bible dictionary notes "The name given to the tree (Allon-bacuth, meaning “Massive Tree of Weeping”) indicates how beloved she had become to Jacob and his family.—Ge 35:8."

NW footnote on Alonbacuth:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"Meaning “Oak of Weeping.” NW ref. (1984 edition) has this footnote: "Meaning “Massive Tree of Weeping.”

[Feel free to go into depth on this Hebrew name.]

So what do we learn from Rebekah? For me, the life-long loyalty she showed to Rebekah as her nurse.. It reminds me of how thankful I have been for the nurses at the hospital during my many stays there recently - and now even in the face of death!

And we should weep at the death of nurses - or, in fact, at anyone's death. The Bible shows that death is an enemy (1 Corinthians 15:26). People don't die because God needs more angels in heaven - if that were true we would rejoice over the death of loved ones. Rachel wept bitterly over the death of her children (also symbolic, btw) because she knew "they were no more:

Jeremiah 31:15,16
“This is what Jehovah says:
‘A voice is heard in Raʹmah,+ lamentation and bitter weeping:
Rachel is weeping over her sons.*+
She has refused to be comforted over her sons,
Because they are no more.’”+
16 This is what Jehovah says:
“‘Hold back your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears,
For there is a reward for your activity,’ declares Jehovah.
‘They will return from the land of the enemy.’+

The land of the enemy is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), and return from death is the Bible hope of the resurrection - which we would not need if we are immortal souls, btw.

It is also noteworthy that mourning over the death of a loved one is pretty much a universal custom - it is actually God-given instinct because the dead return to the ground of dust (Ecclesiastes 3:18-20).

Bottom line - weeping over the death of a loved one is an indication of how much we loved that person.

Even Jesus groaned and gave way to tears when he saw his beloved friends Mary and Martha weeping over beloved Lazarus - see John 11:5,19-38.

 

[Toro]

I thought their music was boring and pedantic.

 

[Newtonian]

We will also consider Genesis chapter 34 in the account where Dinah is raped - a tragic result of bad association. Dinah left the security of her family's tents to visit, apparently alone, the city of Shechem to associate with girls there:

Genesis 34:1,2
Now Diʹnah, Jacob’s daughter by Leʹah,+ used to go out to spend time with* the young women of the land.+ 2 When Sheʹchem, the son of Haʹmor the Hiʹvite,+ a chieftain of the land, saw her, he took her and lay down with her and violated her.

One can just imagine the shame and anger Jacob and Leah felt over the rape of their daughter. As you read on we see this led to revenge through deceit - especially by Jacob's sons Simeon and Levi. Their revenge was so bad that Jacob said:

Genesis 34:30,31
At this Jacob said to Simʹe·on and to Leʹvi:+ “You have brought great trouble* on me in making me a stench to the inhabitants of the land, to the Caʹnaan·ites and the Perʹiz·zites. I am few in number, and they will certainly gather together to attack me and I will be annihilated, I and my house.” 31 But they said: “Should anyone treat our sister like a prostitute?”

While this is an extreme example of the tragic results of bad associations by Dinah and the young women of Shechem, bad associations can lead to bad results. This is true on the internet as well.

 

[Picaro]

Re Deborah the servant, her death and burial under a terebinth tree points to the future of Bethel as a central place in Canaan accessible to all the tribes, or most of them, and of course to the future 'Deborah' of Bethel, a prophet and Judge of later fame. Some translations merely claim the terebinths were oak trees, but my NKJV of the verse in Genesis uses the literal 'terebinth' instead of oak..

The tree has a lot of symbolism attached to it throughout the Bible. I haven't tried to find if there is a chiastic structure that has been identified with those particular passages yet, re Genesis 31-35, but so far there are plenty of layers of allegory and symbolism re connecting the name and place on that particular road and the nearness of Bethel to the future of Israel with the coming of Jacob to the region, among other references. The passage is definitely tied to the founding and migration of Jacob to the region. That's an easy one to point out. Those interested in following that further, probably need to study Deborah the prophet in Judges and will probably find further links and references back to the Genesis stories there. Jacob also buried Laban's idols under a terebinth tree, for instance, according to

Under the Oak and Terebinth Trees - Biblical Hebrew and ...
blog.israelbiblicalstudies.com/holy-land-studies/two-biblic…


The alon tree, most often translated as “oak”, bears the name Quercus calliprinos. In popular literature it is also known as a Kermes oak. The alon is mentioned in the Bible as the first tree encountered by Abram upon entering the land (Gen. 12:6) and the tree under which Deborah, the nurse of Rebecca, was buried (Gen. 35:8) and the . The alon is also famously mentioned as a well-known landmark near the important Judahite city of Hebron: Elonei Mamre. This was one of the important settlement bases used by Abraham. He also buried Sarah in a cave here, which later became the national mausoleum containing the bodies of: Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, Leah.



The Cave of Machpelah, Hebron

Because they are among the only relatively tall trees in the Land, the alon and elah were thought to possess divine strength. The words alon and elah both contain the Hebrew root אל (el), referring back to their sacred status in the Canaanite cult of El. Consequently, both these trees were the subject of much criticism from the prophets in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Hosea writes:

My people ask a wooden statue of a god for advice.
They get answers from a stick of wood.
They are as unfaithful as prostitutes.
They are not faithful to their God.
They offer sacrifices on the mountaintops.
They burn offerings on the hills.
They worship under oak (alon), poplar (livneh) and terebinth (elah) trees.
The trees provide plenty of shade. (Hosea 4:12-13)

Another reason that the alon and elah might have become the subject of idolatrous worship is because both are very sturdy trees which have a miraculous ability regenerate when cut down. As Isaiah writes: “But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land” (Isaiah 6:13). Here is a photograph of an alon that has seemingly come back to life.

 

[Hollie]

Any consideration given as to why the Genesis fable would include the fact that the gods lied while Satan told the truth?

 

[Newtonian]

Any consideration given as to why the Genesis fable would include the fact that the gods lied while Satan told the truth?

Earlier in Genesis, of course. And it was Satan who lied saying Eve would not die but become like God:

Genesis 3:4,5
At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die.+ 5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.”+

The latter is worded wrong but is not an outright lie - Eve was choosing what was good and bad for herself rather than accepting God's standard of what was good and what was bad. In this case, Eve knew God had said it was bad to eat from that tree but she decided eating of the tree was good.

Genesis 3:6,7
Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it.+ Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it.+ 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together and made loin coverings for themselves.+

The lie Satan told is similar to a lie most religions including Christendom tell when saying that when a person dies he has not actually died but has become a spirit like God, who is a spirit - i.e. the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Ezekiel 18:4,20 clearly states the soul dies.

 

[Newtonian]

Re Deborah the servant, her death and burial under a terebinth tree points to the future of Bethel as a central place in Canaan accessible to all the tribes, or most of them, and of course to the future 'Deborah' of Bethel, a prophet and Judge of later fame. Some translations merely claim the terebinths were oak trees, but my NKJV of the verse in Genesis uses the literal 'terebinth' instead of oak..

The tree has a lot of symbolism attached to it throughout the Bible. I haven't tried to find if there is a chiastic structure that has been identified with those particular passages yet, re Genesis 31-35, but so far there are plenty of layers of allegory and symbolism re connecting the name and place on that particular road and the nearness of Bethel to the future of Israel with the coming of Jacob to the region, among other references. The passage is definitely tied to the founding and migration of Jacob to the region. That's an easy one to point out. Those interested in following that further, probably need to study Deborah the prophet in Judges and will probably find further links and references back to the Genesis stories there. Jacob also buried Laban's idols under a terebinth tree, for instance, according to

Under the Oak and Terebinth Trees - Biblical Hebrew and ...
blog.israelbiblicalstudies.com/holy-land-studies/two-biblic…


The alon tree, most often translated as “oak”, bears the name Quercus calliprinos. In popular literature it is also known as a Kermes oak. The alon is mentioned in the Bible as the first tree encountered by Abram upon entering the land (Gen. 12:6) and the tree under which Deborah, the nurse of Rebecca, was buried (Gen. 35:8) and the . The alon is also famously mentioned as a well-known landmark near the important Judahite city of Hebron: Elonei Mamre. This was one of the important settlement bases used by Abraham. He also buried Sarah in a cave here, which later became the national mausoleum containing the bodies of: Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, Leah.



The Cave of Machpelah, Hebron

Because they are among the only relatively tall trees in the Land, the alon and elah were thought to possess divine strength. The words alon and elah both contain the Hebrew root אל (el), referring back to their sacred status in the Canaanite cult of El. Consequently, both these trees were the subject of much criticism from the prophets in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Hosea writes:

My people ask a wooden statue of a god for advice.
They get answers from a stick of wood.
They are as unfaithful as prostitutes.
They are not faithful to their God.
They offer sacrifices on the mountaintops.
They burn offerings on the hills.
They worship under oak (alon), poplar (livneh) and terebinth (elah) trees.
The trees provide plenty of shade. (Hosea 4:12-13)

Another reason that the alon and elah might have become the subject of idolatrous worship is because both are very sturdy trees which have a miraculous ability regenerate when cut down. As Isaiah writes: “But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land” (Isaiah 6:13). Here is a photograph of an alon that has seemingly come back to life.

Thank you for the research Picaro! I will study the type of tree specified in Genesis further and get back to you.

 

[Newtonian]

Picarro - thank you for inciting me to research trees - I needed to branch out!

From a Hebrew-English interlinear for Genesis 35:8 here:

Genesis 35:8 Interlinear: And Deborah, Rebekah's nurse, dieth, and she is buried at the lower part of Bethel, under the oak, and he calleth its name 'Oak of weeping.'

biblehub.com

437 [e]
hā·’al·lō·wn;
הָֽאַלּ֑וֹן
the oak

Art | N‑ms

From our Bible dictionary under "Big Tree"

Big Tree — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"BIG TREE
[Heb., ʼe·lahʹ; ʼe·lohnʹ], Massive Tree [Heb., ʼal·lahʹ, ʼal·lohnʹ].

These Hebrew words are variously rendered “oak,” “elm,” and “teil tree” in the King James Version, also “terebinth” in the American Standard Version. However, many authorities acknowledge that these words may have been applied in Bible times simply to big trees in general.

At Amos 2:9 the Amorite people were likened to the cedar for height and to “massive trees” for vigor. These “massive trees” were especially abundant in Bashan, E of the Jordan, and are used in comparisons along with the cedars of Lebanon. (Isa 2:13; Zec 11:1, 2) Oars were fashioned from their wood. (Eze 27:6) Deborah was buried under such a tree at Bethel, resulting in the name Allon-bacuth, which means “Massive Tree of Weeping.” (Ge 35:8) The location of such trees on hills and high places made them popular places of shade under which false worshipers would engage in idolatrous practices.—Ho 4:13.

Doubtless the massive trees of Bashan included the oak. Renowned for their sturdiness and strength, oak trees live to a very great age. Several kinds of oaks continue to grow in Bashan as well as in the lofty parts of the Hauran, Gilead, Galilee, and Lebanon. Some of them are evergreen, while others are deciduous (that is, losing their leaves each fall). Their fruit, the acorn, is set in a cup and is rich in tannin. It is believed that the color for the “coccus scarlet” material used in the sanctuary (Ex 25:4; 26:1) was obtained from a scale insect that infects the branches of a species of oak.—See DYES, DYEING.

A tree considered likely to be among “the big trees” of the Bible is the terebinth, or turpentine tree (Pistacia palaestina or Pistacia atlantica). (Ge 12:6; 14:13) It is a common tree in Palestine and has a thick trunk and widespreading branches. Some varieties may attain to heights of as much as 15 m (50 ft), providing excellent shade. By making incisions in the bark, one can obtain a perfumed resin from which turpentine is produced."

Genesis 12:6 (NW)


From the same interlinear:

Genesis 12:6 Interlinear: And Abram passeth over into the land, unto the place Shechem, unto the oak of Moreh; and the Canaanite is then in the land.

biblehub.com

436 [e]
’ê·lō·wn
אֵל֣וֹן
the terebinth tree
N‑msc

Our literature notes a number of verses where translators rendered a Hebrew word as Terebinth, e.g.:

For example, from the Bible in LIving English (By)

1 Samuel 17 — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1 Samuel 17:2 (By)
and Saul and the men of Israel came together and camped in Terebinth Vale, and offered battle to the Philistines

also at verse 19

Some translations of 1 Samuel 17:19 here:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

NW: Valley of Elah [also KJV]; NW ref: low plain of Elah; AS [American Standard): vale of Elah; By - Terebinth Vale.

Other translations include:
Darby Bible Translation
Now Saul, and they, and all the men of Israel [were] in the valley of terebinths, fighting against the Philistines.

From the Greek LXX (= Septuagint)

1 Samuel 17:19
(ABP+) AndG2532 Saul,G* andG2532 they,G1473 andG2532 everyG3956 manG435 of IsraelG* inG1722 theG3588 valleyG2835.1 of theG3588 oakG1409.2 were warringG4170 withG3326 theG3588 Philistines.G246

(DRB)[Douay] But Saul, and they, and all the children of Israel, were in the valley of Terebinth, fighting against the Philistines.

(KJV+) Now Saul,H7586 and they,H1992 and allH3605 the menH376 of Israel,H3478 were in the valleyH6010 of Elah,H425 fightingH3898 withH5973 the Philistines.H6430

From Strong's Hebrew dictionary:

H425
אֵלָה
'êlâh
ay-law'
The same as H424; Elah, the name of an Edomite, or four Israelites, and also of a place in Palestine: - Elah.
Total KJV occurrences: 16

From BDB:

H425
אלה
'êlâh
BDB Definition:
Elah = “An oak”
1) an Edomite chief
2) a king of Israel for two years, son of Baasha
3) the father of king Hoshea of Israel
4) a son of Caleb
5) son of Uzzi
Part of Speech: noun proper masculine, locative
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: the same as H424

From our Bible dictionary here:

Elah — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"ELAH
(Eʹlah).
[1-5: related to Heb. ʼEl, “God”].....{listing #'s 1-5)
What was the setting in which David faced Goliath?


6. [Big Tree]. A low plain, or valley, perhaps named for an outstandingly large tree located therein. “The low plain of Elah” was the site of the encounter between the Israelites and the Philistines, championed by Goliath. (1Sa 17:2, 19; 21:9) It is usually associated with the fertile Wadi es-Sant, one of the principal wadis extending from the Philistine plains through the Shephelah into the mountainous regions of Judah, passing between the suggested locations of Azekah and Socoh. (1Sa 17:1) It thus lay about 25 km (15 mi) SW of Jerusalem. The well-watered plain is about half a kilometer (0.25 mi) wide and quite level. The opposing forces faced each other across this valley, each side having a strong position on a mountainside, the Philistines perhaps to the S and the Israelites to the N or NE. Through the low plain ran “the torrent valley,” probably the dry streambed still found there. (1Sa 17:40) Perhaps the delay of “forty days” spent by the two armies was due in part to the weak position in which either side would place itself in having to cross over this torrent valley and then go up against the enemy force on the opposing mountainside. (1Sa 17:16) David selected five smooth stones from the torrent valley when crossing over to face Goliath. After David’s victory, the routed Philistine army fled down the valley to the Philistine plain and the cities of Gath and Ekron.—1Sa 17:52.

to be continued

 

[Newtonian]

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:

OAK AND TEREBINTH - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

"
OAK AND TEREBINTH:
By: Emil G. Hirsch, I. M. Casanowicz

The Hebrew terms calling for consideration here are: "elah" (Gen. xxxv. 4; Judges vi. 11, 19, and elsewhere); "el" (only in the plural form "elim"; Isa. i. 29, lvii. 5, A. V. "idols," R. V. "oaks"; lxi. 3, A. V. "trees"); "elon" (Gen. xii. 6, A. V. "plain"; R. V. "oak"; xiii. 18); "allah" (Josh. xxiv. 26, E. V. "oak"); and "allon" (Gen. xxxv. 8; Isa. ii. 13, xliv. 14, and often E. V. "oak"). All these terms may have originally denoted large, strong trees in general (comp. the Latin robur), comprising both the oak and the terebinth, which are similar in outward appearance. But "elah" (which in Isa. vi. 13 and Hos. iv. 13 is distinguished from "allon") and its cognates "elon" and "elim" are assumed to mean the terebinth, while "allon" (which is repeatedly connected with Bashan [Isa. ii. 13; Ezek. xxvii. 6; Zech. xi. 2], a district famous for its oaks) and "allah" are assumed to denote the oak.
Both the oak and the terebinth offered favorite resorts for religious practises (Isa. i. 29, lvii. 5; Ezek. vi. 13; Hos. iv. 13), and were associated with theophanies (Judges vi. 11; comp. Gen. xii. 6; Judges ix. 37). By reason of their striking appearance and their longevity they served also as topographical landmarks (Gen. xxxv. 8; Judges iv. 11, vi. 11, ix. 6; I Sam. x. 3, xvii. 2). The custom of burial beneath these trees is mentioned (Gen. xxxv.8; I Chron. x. 12). Oak timber was used for the manufacture of idols (Isa. xliv. 14) and for ship-building (Ezek. xxvii. 6). The oak and the terebinth are employed as emblems of strength and durability (Amos ii. 9; Isa. lxi. 3).
According to Tristram, the following three species of oak are at present common in Palestine: (1) the prickly evergreen oak (Quercus pseudo-coccifera), abundant in Gilead; the most famous exemplar of this species is the so-called "Abraham's oak" near. Hebron, measuring 23 feet in girth with a diameter of foliage of about 90 feet (see Abraham's Oak); (2) the Valona oak (Q. Ægilops), common in the north and supposed to represent the "oaks of Bashan"; (3) the Oriental gall-oak (Q. infectoria), on Carmel.
The terebinth (Pistacia Terebinthus) is abundant in the south and southeast. See Forest.
Bibliography:

• Kotschy, Die Eichen Europas und des Orients, Olmütz, 1862;
• Tristram, Nat. Hist. p. 367, London, 1867;
• Wagler, Die Eiche in Alter und Neuer Zeit: Mythologisch-Kulturgeschichtliche Studie, Berlin, 1891."

 

[ding]

I thought their music was boring and pedantic.

The groundhog emerges!!!!!

 

[ding]

I listened to a very interesting interpretation by a Rabbi on Adam and Eve.

In a nutshell Adam was created by God with male and female attributes and resided with God. So therefore, they knew no death and knew no “evil.” Adam was destined to experience the material world. As such he was destined to experience death and experience good and “evil.”

So originally Adam was created in God’s image containing male and female attributes and was later split apart into male and female.

Lastly, the original sin isn’t disobeying God, the original sin is failing to take accountability for disobeying God. This knowledge is the key to transformation.

 

[Hollie]

Any consideration given as to why the Genesis fable would include the fact that the gods lied while Satan told the truth?

Earlier in Genesis, of course. And it was Satan who lied saying Eve would not die but become like God:

Genesis 3:4,5
At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die.+ 5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.”+

The latter is worded wrong but is not an outright lie - Eve was choosing what was good and bad for herself rather than accepting God's standard of what was good and what was bad. In this case, Eve knew God had said it was bad to eat from that tree but she decided eating of the tree was good.

Genesis 3:6,7
Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it.+ Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it.+ 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together and made loin coverings for themselves.+

The lie Satan told is similar to a lie most religions including Christendom tell when saying that when a person dies he has not actually died but has become a spirit like God, who is a spirit - i.e. the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Ezekiel 18:4,20 clearly states the soul dies.

That's a lot of re-writing and adding selective interpretation to make the bibles not what they are but what you would like them to be.

As the fable goes, yours gods said that eating the apple would have this affect:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The serpent said:

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

A&E (not the cable station) didn't die

The gods lied. Satan told the truth.

Aren't you lucky to have me here to explain you religion to you?

 

[ding]

That's a lot of re-writing and adding selective interpretation to make the bibles not what they are but what you would like them to be.

Or in your case what you want them not to be.

Ancient man had good reason to pass these accounts down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years.

You have no good reason not to search for that reason.

 

[ding]

Any consideration given as to why the Genesis fable would include the fact that the gods lied while Satan told the truth?

Earlier in Genesis, of course. And it was Satan who lied saying Eve would not die but become like God:

Genesis 3:4,5
At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die.+ 5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.”+

The latter is worded wrong but is not an outright lie - Eve was choosing what was good and bad for herself rather than accepting God's standard of what was good and what was bad. In this case, Eve knew God had said it was bad to eat from that tree but she decided eating of the tree was good.

Genesis 3:6,7
Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it.+ Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it.+ 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together and made loin coverings for themselves.+

The lie Satan told is similar to a lie most religions including Christendom tell when saying that when a person dies he has not actually died but has become a spirit like God, who is a spirit - i.e. the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Ezekiel 18:4,20 clearly states the soul dies.

That's a lot of re-writing and adding selective interpretation to make the bibles not what they are but what you would like them to be.

As the fable goes, yours gods said that eating the apple would have this affect:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The serpent said:

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

A&E (not the cable station) didn't die

The gods lied. Satan told the truth.

Aren't you lucky to have me here to explain you religion to you?

Your interpretation won’t help you progress one bit.

 

[Picaro]

That's a lot of re-writing and adding selective interpretation to make the bibles not what they are but what you would like them to be.

Or in your case what you want them not to be.

Ancient man had good reason to pass these accounts down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years.

You have no good reason not to search for that reason.

Well, she has an excuse; she's busy learning all that 'scientific vocabulary' stuff, like some of the latest science fiction re 'evolution' and the newest handwaves like 'horizontal gene transfer', 'epigenetics', stuff like that, i.e. studying her cult inventions.

 

[Picaro]

Re Deborah the servant, her death and burial under a terebinth tree points to the future of Bethel as a central place in Canaan accessible to all the tribes, or most of them, and of course to the future 'Deborah' of Bethel, a prophet and Judge of later fame. Some translations merely claim the terebinths were oak trees, but my NKJV of the verse in Genesis uses the literal 'terebinth' instead of oak..

The tree has a lot of symbolism attached to it throughout the Bible. I haven't tried to find if there is a chiastic structure that has been identified with those particular passages yet, re Genesis 31-35, but so far there are plenty of layers of allegory and symbolism re connecting the name and place on that particular road and the nearness of Bethel to the future of Israel with the coming of Jacob to the region, among other references. The passage is definitely tied to the founding and migration of Jacob to the region. That's an easy one to point out. Those interested in following that further, probably need to study Deborah the prophet in Judges and will probably find further links and references back to the Genesis stories there. Jacob also buried Laban's idols under a terebinth tree, for instance, according to

Under the Oak and Terebinth Trees - Biblical Hebrew and ...
blog.israelbiblicalstudies.com/holy-land-studies/two-biblic…


The alon tree, most often translated as “oak”, bears the name Quercus calliprinos. In popular literature it is also known as a Kermes oak. The alon is mentioned in the Bible as the first tree encountered by Abram upon entering the land (Gen. 12:6) and the tree under which Deborah, the nurse of Rebecca, was buried (Gen. 35:8) and the . The alon is also famously mentioned as a well-known landmark near the important Judahite city of Hebron: Elonei Mamre. This was one of the important settlement bases used by Abraham. He also buried Sarah in a cave here, which later became the national mausoleum containing the bodies of: Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, Leah.



The Cave of Machpelah, Hebron

Because they are among the only relatively tall trees in the Land, the alon and elah were thought to possess divine strength. The words alon and elah both contain the Hebrew root אל (el), referring back to their sacred status in the Canaanite cult of El. Consequently, both these trees were the subject of much criticism from the prophets in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Hosea writes:

My people ask a wooden statue of a god for advice.
They get answers from a stick of wood.
They are as unfaithful as prostitutes.
They are not faithful to their God.
They offer sacrifices on the mountaintops.
They burn offerings on the hills.
They worship under oak (alon), poplar (livneh) and terebinth (elah) trees.
The trees provide plenty of shade. (Hosea 4:12-13)

Another reason that the alon and elah might have become the subject of idolatrous worship is because both are very sturdy trees which have a miraculous ability regenerate when cut down. As Isaiah writes: “But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land” (Isaiah 6:13). Here is a photograph of an alon that has seemingly come back to life.

Thank you for the research Picaro! I will study the type of tree specified in Genesis further and get back to you.

No doubt there are several more layers in there, I just went with the first one I noticed. Nothing is there by accident, and everything has a significant reason to be there re biblical writings and meanings, in Genesis in particular the links and cross references are dense and prolific.

You're probably familiar with this, but many lurkers may not be, so I'll post a link to the literary structure of the book itself. The structure around the Rape Of Dinah looks interesting as well, #59 and it's relation to #55 Mahanaim; when I get time I'll see what I can find there.

Literary structure (chiasmus, chiasm) of Book of Genesis

Literary structure (chiasm, chiasmus) of Book of Genesis: Divided by 9

[59]The Rape of Dinah (Gen 34:1-31) A(34:1-7) Shechem's sin, Jacob avoided conflicts B(34:8-12) you can live among us (34:10) (תשׁבו) C(34:13-17) We will agree with you only on this condition, that you become like us by having every male among you circumcised. (34:15) B'(34:18-24) they may settle among us (34:23) (וישׁבו) A'(34:25-31) Dinah's humiliation, Jacob feared a vengeance

A: Shechem's sin and vengeance. B: Hamor's negotiation. C: Circumcision.

 

[Hollie]

That's a lot of re-writing and adding selective interpretation to make the bibles not what they are but what you would like them to be.

Or in your case what you want them not to be.

Ancient man had good reason to pass these accounts down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years.

You have no good reason not to search for that reason.

Well, she has an excuse; she's busy learning all that 'scientific vocabulary' stuff, like some of the latest science fiction re 'evolution' and the newest handwaves like 'horizontal gene transfer', 'epigenetics', stuff like that, i.e. studying her cult inventions.

The citations I posted are pretty clear. I noticed you couldn't refute the bibles so you launched into a rant aimed at something completely irrelevant to my post.

 

[Picaro]

That's a lot of re-writing and adding selective interpretation to make the bibles not what they are but what you would like them to be.

Or in your case what you want them not to be.

Ancient man had good reason to pass these accounts down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years.

You have no good reason not to search for that reason.

Well, she has an excuse; she's busy learning all that 'scientific vocabulary' stuff, like some of the latest science fiction re 'evolution' and the newest handwaves like 'horizontal gene transfer', 'epigenetics', stuff like that, i.e. studying her cult inventions.

The citations I posted are pretty clear. I noticed you couldn't refute the bibles so you launched into a rant aimed at something completely irrelevant to my post.

lol you didn't say anything coherent or factual, so what was there to 'refute'? You're just a troll, is all, and not a very entertaining one.

 

[Hollie]

That's a lot of re-writing and adding selective interpretation to make the bibles not what they are but what you would like them to be.

Or in your case what you want them not to be.

Ancient man had good reason to pass these accounts down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years.

You have no good reason not to search for that reason.

Well, she has an excuse; she's busy learning all that 'scientific vocabulary' stuff, like some of the latest science fiction re 'evolution' and the newest handwaves like 'horizontal gene transfer', 'epigenetics', stuff like that, i.e. studying her cult inventions.

The citations I posted are pretty clear. I noticed you couldn't refute the bibles so you launched into a rant aimed at something completely irrelevant to my post.

lol you didn't say anything coherent or factual, so what was there to 'refute'? You're just a troll, is all, and not a very entertaining one.

I can see you're angry and emotive but I gave you the verses from your bibles. If you choose to ignore what is in the bibles, that's no reason to rail at me.

 

[ding]

That's a lot of re-writing and adding selective interpretation to make the bibles not what they are but what you would like them to be.

Or in your case what you want them not to be.

Ancient man had good reason to pass these accounts down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years.

You have no good reason not to search for that reason.

Well, she has an excuse; she's busy learning all that 'scientific vocabulary' stuff, like some of the latest science fiction re 'evolution' and the newest handwaves like 'horizontal gene transfer', 'epigenetics', stuff like that, i.e. studying her cult inventions.

The citations I posted are pretty clear. I noticed you couldn't refute the bibles so you launched into a rant aimed at something completely irrelevant to my post.

Your interpretations suck big green donkey dicks by choice.