Genesis

[Newtonian]

Any consideration given as to why the Genesis fable would include the fact that the gods lied while Satan told the truth?

Satan lied by saying Eve would not die but would become like God.

Christendom repeats a similar liev - saying when we die we do not die because we have an immortal soul.

Ezekiel 18:4,20 says the soul dies. (KJV)

 

[Newtonian]

T

Re Deborah the servant, her death and burial under a terebinth tree points to the future of Bethel as a central place in Canaan accessible to all the tribes, or most of them, and of course to the future 'Deborah' of Bethel, a prophet and Judge of later fame. Some translations merely claim the terebinths were oak trees, but my NKJV of the verse in Genesis uses the literal 'terebinth' instead of oak..

The tree has a lot of symbolism attached to it throughout the Bible. I haven't tried to find if there is a chiastic structure that has been identified with those particular passages yet, re Genesis 31-35, but so far there are plenty of layers of allegory and symbolism re connecting the name and place on that particular road and the nearness of Bethel to the future of Israel with the coming of Jacob to the region, among other references. The passage is definitely tied to the founding and migration of Jacob to the region. That's an easy one to point out. Those interested in following that further, probably need to study Deborah the prophet in Judges and will probably find further links and references back to the Genesis stories there. Jacob also buried Laban's idols under a terebinth tree, for instance, according to

Under the Oak and Terebinth Trees - Biblical Hebrew and ...
blog.israelbiblicalstudies.com/holy-land-studies/two-biblic…


The alon tree, most often translated as “oak”, bears the name Quercus calliprinos. In popular literature it is also known as a Kermes oak. The alon is mentioned in the Bible as the first tree encountered by Abram upon entering the land (Gen. 12:6) and the tree under which Deborah, the nurse of Rebecca, was buried (Gen. 35:8) and the . The alon is also famously mentioned as a well-known landmark near the important Judahite city of Hebron: Elonei Mamre. This was one of the important settlement bases used by Abraham. He also buried Sarah in a cave here, which later became the national mausoleum containing the bodies of: Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, Leah.



The Cave of Machpelah, Hebron

Because they are among the only relatively tall trees in the Land, the alon and elah were thought to possess divine strength. The words alon and elah both contain the Hebrew root אל (el), referring back to their sacred status in the Canaanite cult of El. Consequently, both these trees were the subject of much criticism from the prophets in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Hosea writes:

My people ask a wooden statue of a god for advice.
They get answers from a stick of wood.
They are as unfaithful as prostitutes.
They are not faithful to their God.
They offer sacrifices on the mountaintops.
They burn offerings on the hills.
They worship under oak (alon), poplar (livneh) and terebinth (elah) trees.
The trees provide plenty of shade. (Hosea 4:12-13)

Another reason that the alon and elah might have become the subject of idolatrous worship is because both are very sturdy trees which have a miraculous ability regenerate when cut down. As Isaiah writes: “But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land” (Isaiah 6:13). Here is a photograph of an alon that has seemingly come back to life.

Thank you for the research Picaro! I will study the type of tree specified in Genesis further and get back to you.

No doubt there are several more layers in there, I just went with the first one I noticed. Nothing is there by accident, and everything has a significant reason to be there re biblical writings and meanings, in Genesis in particular the links and cross references are dense and prolific.

You're probably familiar with this, but many lurkers may not be, so I'll post a link to the literary structure of the book itself. The structure around the Rape Of Dinah looks interesting as well, #59 and it's relation to #55 Mahanaim; when I get time I'll see what I can find there.

Literary structure (chiasmus, chiasm) of Book of Genesis

Literary structure (chiasm, chiasmus) of Book of Genesis: Divided by 9

[59]The Rape of Dinah (Gen 34:1-31) A(34:1-7) Shechem's sin, Jacob avoided conflicts B(34:8-12) you can live among us (34:10) (תשׁבו) C(34:13-17) We will agree with you only on this condition, that you become like us by having every male among you circumcised. (34:15) B'(34:18-24) they may settle among us (34:23) (וישׁבו) A'(34:25-31) Dinah's humiliation, Jacob feared a vengeance

A: Shechem's sin and vengeance. B: Hamor's negotiation. C: Circumcision.

Thank you again Picarro, for your additional research. Moving on - we are now on Genesis chapters 36,37.

Two points (among many):

1. Esau was named Edom primarily because he sold his birthright for a red pot of stew. Edom means red. Also, apparently, Edom was reddish. And I think some of the land Edom settled was reddish as well.

2. Joseph's brothers were very mad at his recounting dreams foretelling they would bow to him. This led them to want to murder Joseph (compare Cain). However, the oldest brother, Reuben, was responsible for Joseph and tried to save his life. He succeeded though Joseph was sold into slavery ending up in Egypt.

One of my favorite verses in this account shows that while Jacob was also angry at Joseph, he did not do anything to harm him. Nor did he ignore Joseph's dreams.

Genesis 37:11
And his brothers grew jealous of him,+ but his father kept the saying in mind.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Gen 3:15, first mention of Christ

 

[Hollie]

Any consideration given as to why the Genesis fable would include the fact that the gods lied while Satan told the truth?

Satan lied by saying Eve would not die but would become like God.

Christendom repeats a similar liev - saying when we die we do not die because we have an immortal soul.

Ezekiel 18:4,20 says the soul dies. (KJV)

Yes, there are many contradictions in the Bibles. It's reasonable to question why inconsistencies in a belief system are dismissed with hardly a peep or a whimper. The question of gods is the only question humans allow to escape the strictures of what constitutes knowledge. Everything else within our knowledgebase is required to adhere to strict guidelines before being embraced as actual fact, as best as we humans can manage to discern the truth. That does not always mean that the truth is readily evident or even that the evidence is interpreted correctly but there is a process.

 

[Picaro]

lol there are no contradictions in the Bible. If there were, nobody has found them yet.

 

[Newtonian]

Gen 3:15, first mention of Christ

What about Genesis 1:26 - who was "us?"

 

[Hollie]

lol there are no contradictions in the Bible. If there were, nobody has found them yet.

Lol, the bibles are drenched in contradictions. Lots of people have found them.

 

[Hollie]

Gen 3:15, first mention of Christ

What about Genesis 1:26 - who was "us?"

The unionized consortium of gods?

 

[Newtonian]

Any consideration given as to why the Genesis fable would include the fact that the gods lied while Satan told the truth?

Satan lied by saying Eve would not die but would become like God.

Christendom repeats a similar liev - saying when we die we do not die because we have an immortal soul.

Ezekiel 18:4,20 says the soul dies. (KJV)

Yes, there are many contradictions in the Bibles. It's reasonable to question why inconsistencies in a belief system are dismissed with hardly a peep or a whimper. The question of gods is the only question humans allow to escape the strictures of what constitutes knowledge. Everything else within our knowledgebase is required to adhere to strict guidelines before being embraced as actual fact, as best as we humans can manage to discern the truth. That does not always mean that the truth is readily evident or even that the evidence is interpreted correctly but there is a process.

So, assuming you are on topic and responding to my post - why do you think the Bible contradicts itself when saying the soul dies?

(KJV)Eze 18:4 Behold,H2005 allH3605 soulsH5315 are mine; as the soulH5315 of the father,H1 so also the soulH5315 of the sonH1121 is mine: the soulH5315 that sinneth,H2398 itH1931 shall die.H4191

H5315 is Hebrew nephesh/soul. Ezekiel 18:4 contradicts what Satan told Eve in Genesis 3:4, but it does not contradict any other verse in the Bible.

However, as is the case with most Hebrew, Greek and English words - there is more than one definition of nephesh (=Greek psyche). The primary definition is referred to at Genesis 2:7 where man BECAME a living soul - not was given a soul.

Genesis 2:7 (NW ref)
And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust*+ from the ground+ and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life,*+ and the man came to be a living soul.*+

Footnote:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"“A living soul [breathing creature].” Heb., leneʹphesh chai·yahʹ; Gr., ψυχὴν ζῶσαν (psy·khenʹ zoʹsan, “living soul”); Lat., aʹni·mam vi·venʹtem. See 1:20, 21, 30; 1Co 15:45; App 4A."

 

[Hollie]

Any consideration given as to why the Genesis fable would include the fact that the gods lied while Satan told the truth?

Satan lied by saying Eve would not die but would become like God.

Christendom repeats a similar liev - saying when we die we do not die because we have an immortal soul.

Ezekiel 18:4,20 says the soul dies. (KJV)

Yes, there are many contradictions in the Bibles. It's reasonable to question why inconsistencies in a belief system are dismissed with hardly a peep or a whimper. The question of gods is the only question humans allow to escape the strictures of what constitutes knowledge. Everything else within our knowledgebase is required to adhere to strict guidelines before being embraced as actual fact, as best as we humans can manage to discern the truth. That does not always mean that the truth is readily evident or even that the evidence is interpreted correctly but there is a process.

So, assuming you are on topic and responding to my post - why do you think the Bible contradicts itself when saying the soul dies?

(KJV)Eze 18:4 Behold,H2005 allH3605 soulsH5315 are mine; as the soulH5315 of the father,H1 so also the soulH5315 of the sonH1121 is mine: the soulH5315 that sinneth,H2398 itH1931 shall die.H4191

H5315 is Hebrew nephesh/soul. Ezekiel 18:4 contradicts what Satan told Eve in Genesis 3:4, but it does not contradict any other verse in the Bible.

However, as is the case with most Hebrew, Greek and English words - there is more than one definition of nephesh (=Greek psyche). The primary definition is referred to at Genesis 2:7 where man BECAME a living soul - not was given a soul.

Genesis 2:7 (NW ref)
And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust*+ from the ground+ and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life,*+ and the man came to be a living soul.*+

Footnote:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"“A living soul [breathing creature].” Heb., leneʹphesh chai·yahʹ; Gr., ψυχὴν ζῶσαν (psy·khenʹ zoʹsan, “living soul”); Lat., aʹni·mam vi·venʹtem. See 1:20, 21, 30; 1Co 15:45; App 4A."

Let's take small steps. First, and before you make claims to something you call a "soul" that is implanted by the gods, please make a supportable case for these gods. I'm under no obligation to accept specious claims to gods and gods implanting souls when you refuse to make a case for either.

I have no explanation for "spirits" or the "soul" because the soul remains undemonstrated. I have no properties and characteristics for that which does not exist. I do have a comment about personality, and where that comes from. The sense of self is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals (i.e., humans are not the only creatures with a sense of "self"). This in and of itself is enough to prove that "selfhood" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. Either that, or your gods have made monkeys and men with a soul each, and that means humans are not the especial creation of god. Language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man, which is a great case for man being of and a part of the natural world-- no gods needed.

Personality is a phenomenon of the brain. Remove sections of the brain and the "self" changes as well. Apparently the eternal "soul" is at the mercy of a few pounds of grey jelly, because the soul cannot override the impact to the brain and the change in personality that attends that impact. The soul must be fairly weak.

This is a perfectly valid explanation for emotions, and it doesn't require the mumbo-jumbo of gods to explain it.

Non-material concepts are not fully non-material. You need a brain to substantiate them. Damage or impact to the brain directly affects the development and delivery of the concepts. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, and not submitting any case to support it. I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

By way of example, I can

1. end all thought by killing that brain
2. create an emotion by chemical inducement of that brain
3. limit the thought and emotion of the brain by removing sections of it.

All the poetry about feelings and "souls" and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gods.

 

[BreezeWood]

I am submitting they are the effects of the brain along with neurons and chemicals within the brain, and I can demonstrate how they can be manipulated by physical impact.

All the poetry about feelings and "souls" and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain.

.
physiology is a metaphysical substance not native to planet Earth and is mutually dependent with its spiritual content for which neither survive with the loss of the other ... they seem inseparable during life though the spiritual destiny afterwards is non to clear.

Flora is void of a brain - CNS

only a depraved person would not recognize their spiritual being, physiological diversity and competitive nature to stay alive ... they too most certainly must willingly ascribe the benefits for the metaphysical religion of antiquity as their creation knowing full well their mere existence is dependent upon those decisions they make the same for all beings for their continued existence.

whether known or recognized by the being just as their heart beat their spiritual content is no less vital during their daily lives.

 

[watchingfromafar]

The cave of Machpelah is in Palestine. The Jews decided to bury their leaders in Jorden, not in the land now falsely claimed as “Israel”.
(I checked, it seems I was wrong)
The cave of Machpelah, in the West Bank city of Hebron, is the burial place of the Matriarchs and Patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca, and Leah. According to Jewish mystical tradition, it's also the entrance to the Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve are buried.

This was one of the important settlement bases used by Abraham. He also buried Sarah in a cave here, which later became the national mausoleum containing the bodies of: Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, Leah.
Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين‎, romanized: Filasṭīn), officially recognized as the State of Palestine. (Arabic: دولة فلسطين‎, romanized: Dawlat Filasṭīn) by the United Nations and other entities, is a de jure sovereign state in Western Asia officially governed by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and claiming the West Bank and Gaza Strip with Jerusalem as the designated capital; in practice, however, only partial administrative control is held over the 167 "islands" in the West Bank, and Gaza is ruled by a rival government (Hamas). The entirety of territory claimed by the State of Palestine has been occupied since 1948, first by Egypt (Gaza Strip) and Jordan (West Bank) and then by Israel after the Six-Day War in 1967. Palestine has a population of 5,051,953 as of February 2020, ranked 121st in the world.
State of Palestine - Wikipedia

The Palestinians will get their rightful land back!!!!!!!​

-

 

[HaShev]

Any consideration given as to why the Genesis fable would include the fact that the gods lied while Satan told the truth?

Earlier in Genesis, of course. And it was Satan who lied saying Eve would not die but become like God:

Genesis 3:4,5
At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die.+ 5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.”+

The latter is worded wrong but is not an outright lie - Eve was choosing what was good and bad for herself rather than accepting God's standard of what was good and what was bad. In this case, Eve knew God had said it was bad to eat from that tree but she decided eating of the tree was good.

Genesis 3:6,7
Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it.+ Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it.+ 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together and made loin coverings for themselves.+

The lie Satan told is similar to a lie most religions including Christendom tell when saying that when a person dies he has not actually died but has become a spirit like God, who is a spirit - i.e. the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Ezekiel 18:4,20 clearly states the soul dies.

True, Probably the single worst borrowed pagan precept (death cultism of the Greeks and underworld teachings of the Egyptians) that has enslaved & destroyed cultures believing in false soul flying life beyond creation, even creating a kingdom in death opposite the Creators(force and source) creation (life).
I did an essay on this in the late 90's:
Somehow the page still survived:

The Deception of Afterlife=Death

Truth About the Afterlife

hashev.tripod.com

Understanding the difference between Judaic concept of a "return/placed back" into life (advanced/perfected) over pagan precepts of
Kingdom in death and difference in defining heaven (olam habah) is required to secret Genesis story of Adam(man) and Eve (his 2nd wife).
We know Adam and Eve aren't literal first inhabitants, they are symbols in a story representing something.
You won't see that message if you don't have the key, that being understanding where the message comes from and it's purpose. You all see the messages coming from the past to warn the future forgeting Heaven is the perfected kingdom to come in Judaism and the Michaeline faiths such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh (Sheva) day Adventist, thus Future which is warning the past. You don't notice these things, because people think of time in a linear sense when the message is from the non linear capability advanced future. You were given clues when the OT said in Isaiah, the begining is at the end. Now with this key re-read Genesis representing warnings to man from those who know where we mess up.

In the Zohar Lilith "the first woman" is equated as Israel. Lilith left man when man refused her equality and she refused his "missionary" position.
Adam (meaning man) was then given a partner which came out of his rib (not out of God's creation) as soon as she saw Eve (adam-man's second bride=the church)clinging to his side she (Lilith- the Night Spector) fled from man .

Lilith thus was cast into the depths of the sea (Rome was called "sea" as code slang, so enslaved into the depths of the Roman Empire), where she abode until the time that Adam and his wife (the church) sinned. Then the Holy One, brought her out from the depth of the sea (Rome) and gave her power over all those children by "bringing back" the first bride (Israel).
Remember it was Eve(the church) who was convinced by the fallen false prophet Jesus =serpent to partake of his fruit(teachings) claiming to believe in his tree (cross) and you'll be eternal(in death not life).

Eve(church) talked Adam (man) to partake on this serpents(Jesus) teachings both good and evil mixed in a way unrecognizable to what was benefit and what was harmful and thus they did die from partaking this fruit.

The word regarding them naked is spelled in Hebrew in the same manner as being unveiled(exposed) of deceptions, therefore they covered their deceptions as in covering up the naked truth.