Gaza...

[RoccoR]

pbel, et al,

I think that it is important, that this perspective gets out. But I have some real questions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/o...-and-israels-war-with-hamas-in-gaza.html?_r=1


The Israeli case for the bombardment of Gaza could be foolproof. If Benjamin Netanyahu had made a good-faith effort to find common cause with Palestinian moderates for peace and been rebuffed, it would be. He has not. Hamas is vile. I would happily see it destroyed. But Hamas is also the product of a situation that Israel has reinforced rather than sought to resolve.

This corrosive Israeli exercise in the control of another people, breeding the contempt of the powerful for the oppressed, is a betrayal of the Zionism in which I still believe

(QUESTIONS)

What is evidence of a "good-faith effort to find common cause?"

• Who are the Palestinian moderates?
• Do Palestinian moderates have sufficient influence to act on behalf of the Palestinians?
• Will HAMAS and the PLO just step aside?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

History will record the Cowardly Bombings of Gaza as a "Crime against Humanity," and will inspire writers and artists for generations to document the similarities of Gaza to Guernica...

This following passage from a correspondent from Guernica could be describing Gaza with the same exact words...

The Bombing of Guernica, 1937

"...collecting charred bodies that the flames had passed over. Some of the soldiers were sobbing like children. There were flames and-smoke and grit, and the smell of burning human flesh was nauseating. Houses were collapsing into the inferno.

In the Plaza, surrounded almost by a wall of fire, were about a hundred refugees. They were wailing and weeping and rocking to and fro. One middle-aged man spoke English. He told me: 'At four, before the-market closed, many aeroplanes came. They dropped bombs. Some came low and shot bullets into the streets. Father Aroriategui was wonderful. He prayed with the people in the Plaza while the bombs fell.'..

Ignorance is bliss. Amusing how you have American flags as your avatar and denounce Israel for its Gaza operation claiming how history will condemn them for it while not condemning your own side whose flag is drenched with blood for its own own sins in WWII. 225,000 dead is considered a very conservative estimate for how many civilians were killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki by US forces.

At least with conventional bombing the case can be made civilian casualties are unavoidable. But deliberately using two atomic weapons knowing full well civilians would be the majority of the casualties somehow goes uncommented on by you.

You're either a hypocrite, or an ignorant fool.

I'll tell you what I am...I am an American Firster who painted those flags and served under them as a Marine...Unlike you, I have one loyalty to America which has suffered much Terrorism for our ME policies...

Our support for AIPAC influenced policies that bought Politicians with an overwhelming supply of Zionist money in part for votes supplying the weapons that kill the innocent people in the ME...

Israel has helped make us Targets.

 

[pbel]

pbel, et al,

I think that it is important, that this perspective gets out. But I have some real questions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/o...-and-israels-war-with-hamas-in-gaza.html?_r=1


The Israeli case for the bombardment of Gaza could be foolproof. If Benjamin Netanyahu had made a good-faith effort to find common cause with Palestinian moderates for peace and been rebuffed, it would be. He has not. Hamas is vile. I would happily see it destroyed. But Hamas is also the product of a situation that Israel has reinforced rather than sought to resolve.

This corrosive Israeli exercise in the control of another people, breeding the contempt of the powerful for the oppressed, is a betrayal of the Zionism in which I still believe

(QUESTIONS)

What is evidence of a "good-faith effort to find common cause?"

• Who are the Palestinian moderates?
• Do Palestinian moderates have sufficient influence to act on behalf of the Palestinians?
• Will HAMAS and the PLO just step aside?

Most Respectfully,
R

Honestly, I don't want to get into a debate with a Dancer, but one quick one: Hamas joined Fatah to essentially get on the bad wagon if a peace deal came about...Nut&Yahoo used the three boys murders as an excuse to break up the marriage before it was consummated...Peace is his Enemy...

No more dances for you!

 

[pbel]

ISIS Next?

Netanyahu Wants Hamas to Stay - The Daily Beast

The modest goal of Netanyahu’s current war contrasts with his government’s rhetoric about its target. Last month, Israel’s Minister of Intelligence compared Hamas to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Sham (ISIS), the Jihadist fanatics rampaging through Syria and Iraq.Netanyahu himself has made similar comparisons. “Hamas is like ISIS, Hamas is like al Qaeda,” he said during a press conference on July 22. But it’s not the first time the rhetoric about Hamas and reality of Israel’s war aims haven’t quite matched. At the end of Operation Cast Lead, in 2008 and 2009, Israeli troops stopped short of attacking Hamas leadership who were camped underneath al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City for the war. The brief skirmish between Hamas and Israel in 2012 also ended with Hamas still in place. While the terms of the ceasefire and an agreement between Israel and the United States to cooperate on interdicting illicit arms shipments to Gaza was supposed to defang Hamas, the deal didn’t work. - See more at: Netanyahu Wants Hamas to Stay - The Daily Beast

 

[Daniyel]

[MENTION=35713]pbel[/MENTION]l you are primitive and low to think we would harm our own (3 KIDS!!) for the "GREATER GOOD" - this belongs to the suicide bombers on the other side of the god damn wall, all we want to LIVE we don't want Palestinians at all, not Hamas, not ISIS, not Hezbullah, not Islamic Jihad, not PFLP, no AAM, not individual terorr - NOTHING!
Remember Shalit exchange? 1000+ convicted terrorists for 1 skinny tank operator..so if you ask me we need another 52,000 terrorists for the fallen IDF soldiers so far.

 

[pbel]

[MENTION=35713]pbel[/MENTION]l you are primitive and low to think we would harm our own (3 KIDS!!) for the "GREATER GOOD" - this belongs to the suicide bombers on the other side of the god damn wall, all we want to LIVE we don't want Palestinians at all, not Hamas, not ISIS, not Hezbullah, not Islamic Jihad, not PFLP, no AAM, not individual terorr - NOTHING!
Remember Shalit exchange? 1000+ convicted terrorists for 1 skinny tank operator..so if you ask me we need another 52,000 terrorists for the fallen IDF soldiers so far.

Where did I say Israel harmed 3 kids dolt? Nut&Yahoo used that criminal act as an excuse to attack Gaza, Got it now, Jackass?

 

[Daniyel]

[MENTION=35713]pbel[/MENTION]l you are primitive and low to think we would harm our own (3 KIDS!!) for the "GREATER GOOD" - this belongs to the suicide bombers on the other side of the god damn wall, all we want to LIVE we don't want Palestinians at all, not Hamas, not ISIS, not Hezbullah, not Islamic Jihad, not PFLP, no AAM, not individual terorr - NOTHING!
Remember Shalit exchange? 1000+ convicted terrorists for 1 skinny tank operator..so if you ask me we need another 52,000 terrorists for the fallen IDF soldiers so far.

Where did I say Israel harmed 3 kids dolt? Nut&Yahoo used that criminal act as an excuse to attack Gaza, Got it now, Jackass?

PM NETANYAHU SAID THE ROCKETS AND INFILTRATIONS MUST STOP - LIKE IT OR NOT.
The kidnapping just prove how the Palestinians value OUR LIFE.

 

[pbel]

[MENTION=35713]pbel[/MENTION]l you are primitive and low to think we would harm our own (3 KIDS!!) for the "GREATER GOOD" - this belongs to the suicide bombers on the other side of the god damn wall, all we want to LIVE we don't want Palestinians at all, not Hamas, not ISIS, not Hezbullah, not Islamic Jihad, not PFLP, no AAM, not individual terorr - NOTHING!
Remember Shalit exchange? 1000+ convicted terrorists for 1 skinny tank operator..so if you ask me we need another 52,000 terrorists for the fallen IDF soldiers so far.

Where did I say Israel harmed 3 kids dolt? Nut&Yahoo used that criminal act as an excuse to attack Gaza, Got it now, Jackass?

PM NETANYAHU SAID THE ROCKETS AND INFILTRATIONS MUST STOP - LIKE IT OR NOT.
The kidnapping just prove how the Palestinians value OUR LIFE.

You are proving that you are animals dropping bombs on civilians instead of fighting like men, and 1.5 Billion Muslims will never forget this, and the day of reckoning will come in time...

 

[Daniyel]

Where did I say Israel harmed 3 kids dolt? Nut&Yahoo used that criminal act as an excuse to attack Gaza, Got it now, Jackass?

PM NETANYAHU SAID THE ROCKETS AND INFILTRATIONS MUST STOP - LIKE IT OR NOT.
The kidnapping just prove how the Palestinians value OUR LIFE.

You are proving that you are animals dropping bombs on civilians instead of fighting like men, and 1.5 Billion Muslims will never forget this, and the day of reckoning will come in time...

So now you talk about Muslims?
So guess what *****, they dont like us anyway - Not the US not the Europeans not the Israelis..
And like you said yourself - Muslims - because we are not Muslims!

 

[pbel]

PM NETANYAHU SAID THE ROCKETS AND INFILTRATIONS MUST STOP - LIKE IT OR NOT.
The kidnapping just prove how the Palestinians value OUR LIFE.

You are proving that you are animals dropping bombs on civilians instead of fighting like men, and 1.5 Billion Muslims will never forget this, and the day of reckoning will come in time...

So now you talk about Muslims?
So guess what *****, they dont like us anyway - Not the US not the Europeans not the Israelis..
And like you said yourself - Muslims - because we are not Muslims!

This Conflict has always been an East/West struggle from the time of the Crusaders...Their invasions like Israel will founder in wars of Attrition until the invaders leave from constant warfare...

Thus far, every invader has been defeated by this tactic of slow motion war...

 

[Daniyel]

You are proving that you are animals dropping bombs on civilians instead of fighting like men, and 1.5 Billion Muslims will never forget this, and the day of reckoning will come in time...

So now you talk about Muslims?
So guess what *****, they dont like us anyway - Not the US not the Europeans not the Israelis..
And like you said yourself - Muslims - because we are not Muslims!

This Conflict has always been an East/West struggle from the time of the Crusaders...Their invasions like Israel will founder in wars of Attrition until the invaders leave from constant warfare...

Thus far, every invader has been defeated by this tactic of slow motion war...

You right, the crusaders couldn't stand the middle eastern weather against the native arabs, just like the nazis on the eastern front couldn't survive the winter against the native russians, and so does the Palestinians in Israel against the jews, however - today what settle conflicts is politics and warheads, and so it will be in the future.

 

[Humanity]

PM NETANYAHU SAID THE ROCKETS AND INFILTRATIONS MUST STOP - LIKE IT OR NOT.
The kidnapping just prove how the Palestinians value OUR LIFE.

You are proving that you are animals dropping bombs on civilians instead of fighting like men, and 1.5 Billion Muslims will never forget this, and the day of reckoning will come in time...

So now you talk about Muslims?
So guess what *****, they dont like us anyway - Not the US not the Europeans not the Israelis..
And like you said yourself - Muslims - because we are not Muslims!

"they dont like us anyway - Not the US not the Europeans not the Israelis.. "

"Muslim" is NOT a place...

You do know that don't you?

You will find Muslims in the US and Europe....

As you have American Jews you will also fin American Muslims

 

[Daniyel]

You are proving that you are animals dropping bombs on civilians instead of fighting like men, and 1.5 Billion Muslims will never forget this, and the day of reckoning will come in time...

So now you talk about Muslims?
So guess what *****, they dont like us anyway - Not the US not the Europeans not the Israelis..
And like you said yourself - Muslims - because we are not Muslims!

"they dont like us anyway - Not the US not the Europeans not the Israelis.. "

"Muslim" is NOT a place...

You do know that don't you?

You will find Muslims in the US and Europe....

As you have American Jews you will also fin American Muslims

Madness is not a state of mind, Islam is a place.. they fight each other and everyone who is not Muslim, anywhere and for any reason - on top of that - because the "Convert or Kill"
Because of that, Muslim states doesn't like us anyway.

 

[Disir]

History will record the Cowardly Bombings of Gaza as a "Crime against Humanity," and will inspire writers and artists for generations to document the similarities of Gaza to Guernica...

This following passage from a correspondent from Guernica could be describing Gaza with the same exact words...

The Bombing of Guernica, 1937

"...collecting charred bodies that the flames had passed over. Some of the soldiers were sobbing like children. There were flames and-smoke and grit, and the smell of burning human flesh was nauseating. Houses were collapsing into the inferno.

In the Plaza, surrounded almost by a wall of fire, were about a hundred refugees. They were wailing and weeping and rocking to and fro. One middle-aged man spoke English. He told me: 'At four, before the-market closed, many aeroplanes came. They dropped bombs. Some came low and shot bullets into the streets. Father Aroriategui was wonderful. He prayed with the people in the Plaza while the bombs fell.'..

Actually, this is going to be a turning point in history.

It's also going to divide the left.

People are going to start taking out their calculators and adding up how much money their country is sending to the Palestinians and demanding accountability for the cash. Secondly, the NGOs are going to be heavily questioned. This is already taking place in other countries.

This article focuses on the West Bank but there will be a focus on instigation.
Financing the flames from a mobile home in Florida | The Times of Israel

Because of the level of bias and propaganda there are many left wing new sources that will also lose credibility.

The UN has, at this point, lost all credibility. Note that it was designed not to accomplish anything. However, the storage of rockets indicates that someone was not just aware but allowed it.

 

[fanger]

You are proving that you are animals dropping bombs on civilians instead of fighting like men, and 1.5 Billion Muslims will never forget this, and the day of reckoning will come in time...

A graphic video showing the killing of journalist Ramy Ryan in Gaza and an attack on an ambulance and rescue workers by Israeli air strikes has surfaced online. Warning: This six-minute video is very graphic. Viewer discretion is advised.

The video uploaded onto YouTube by Abu Shaar shows two ambulances arriving urgently on the scene where Ramy Ryan is seen covering the situation. About 15 seconds into the video, the first missile strikes the ambulance. Fourteen seconds later, the second missile strikes.
At 0:40 seconds, the third strike. 0:55, the fourth strike. 1:09, the fifth. The cameraman stands up and we see a dozen men lying on the ground, all seemingly injured and trying to escape towards the walls to take refuge. 1:20, the sixth strike. 1:32, the seventh. 1:47, the eighth. 1:57, the ninth. At 2:00 the cameraman moves again and crawls towards the injured men on his left. 2:07, the tenth strike. 2:20, the cameraman moves toward another injured man who's yelling “Ya Allah, Ya Mohammad”. At 2:40, he captures another man unconscious or dead. At 2:50, he takes cover with a group of injured men. The old man at 3:00 is saying “I can't. I can't,” while limping. A 3:27, we hear another missile.

At 3:50, we see Ramy Ryan on the floor, lying over a pool of blood. He's dead. A man is telling us “Look, look. A journalist. Look.

[Warning: Graphic] Video From Gaza Documents the Killing of Journalist Ramy Ryan by Israeli Missiles · Global Voices

Wow, Bombing an ambulance and rescue workers

 

[RoccoR]

et al,

It is extremely important to remember that there is more than one set of goal and objectives to look towards as being successful. In the development of any solution, there must be an end-state that is commonly agreed upon.

􀂾 Success in the Settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict may be Defined in steps.

• Short term: That Israel and Palestinian Factions enter into a new era of relationships which are divorced from the threat or use of force against the others territorial integrity or political independence. The principle political milestones, building democratic institutions, and progress toward mutually beneficial settlement of their international disputes by peaceful means.
• Medium term: That both parties (Israel and Palestinian Factions) lead in the development of solutions that promote constitutional government, and both are on their way to achieving their economic, commercial, and political potential in strengthening their states.
• Longer term: Israel and Palestine become peaceful states and neighbors, each enjoying sovereign equality and individually stable and secure in themselves; yet, stronger together than they are separately. They must jointly be well integrated into the international community and full partners in the global and regional developments.​

Today, neither country can really express, if they can see it at all, a realistically successful end-state that they can each agree upon. They can barely see beyond the current skirmish in Gaza. Both sides need a change (&#8710 in the way their respective leaders address the issues. No matter what the outcome of the skirmish in Gaza this time around, unless it ultimately results in forward thinking change, the outcome will mean little in terms of the short-term goal of peace.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UygWCY1PuxA [MENTION=38033]Indofred[/MENTION]

I'm pretty sure I can find a few Jewish dudes on youtube, ranting on about destroying Islam.
What's your point?

My point is that Jewish Rabbis and Christians Priests doesn't incite for war based on religion..

They are inciting the defense of their land and homes of a millennia from European and American invaders...That is their view, Israel was created by UN declarations and by the force of arms of Zionists...It has nothing to do with Religion...

 

[Lipush]

I'll just put this here....

Sucks not controlling the media here like you do America doesn't it?

Do you even know what you just said?

How does that stupid sentence, with no connection to reality, contradict the fact that the truth is never shown fully when concerning Gaza.

Wow. I'm surrounded by Anti-Zionist bozos.

 

[Coyote]

Thread has been cleaned of a lot of derailing posts - please try to discuss the topic (Gaza) - discussions involving individual poster's relative sanity and discussions of religion in general do not belong here.

Further violations will be dealt with on a case by case basis.

 

[pbel]

These are moments that will be inscribed into the collective memory of Palestine and beyond for a thousand years, Civilians and children dying constitute 80 percent (1300 plus)or more of the casualties by bombing while 52 IDF soldiers dead and 200 Gaza militants...

It is a Civilian killing field to instill Terror like Guernica...

West Bank?s Palestinians helplessly watch, worry about relatives in Gaza - World - The Boston Globe

Moments earlier, Shaath received a text message he had been dreading. His cousin Muhammad, 25, had died in a Cairo hospital from injuries he sustained when an Israeli airstrike hit his home in Khan Younis, in the southern Gaza Strip, a few days earlier. Three of Muhammad’s brothers were killed instantly in the attack, which leveled their house.