Fundamental Concepts

[Edgetho]

SERIOUSLY well worth reading. It's what so many of us have been trying to tell dimocraps for decades now.

When are you going to get it, dimocraps? Ever?

Fundamental Concepts - Dear Black Baltimore Rioter [Weirddave]


I'd like to take just a moment to chat with you if I may. I realize that you probably don't want to talk to me, all your life you've been told that I am the enemy, the cause of everything that you think is wrong with your life. I'm evil. I'm greedy. I'm white. I'm “rich”. I'm racist. I'm Republican. I'm an entire litany of evil, and you know what? For the sake of this conversation, I'll stipulate all of it. I am evil, white, racist and rich. I am Republican and racist. I'm every negative stereotype and every oppressor, real and imagined, that has had a negative effect on you or your ancestor's lives, going back to when they lost a war in Africa and were captured and sold to slave traders. All of that. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm not going to contest any of it. That being said, I have one simple question for you:

Fundamental Concepts - Dear Black Baltimore Rioter Weirddave

Read the whole thing. It's worth it

 

[PaintMyHouse]

"Do you realize that you're being manipulated and used?" Stupid *******, right Edge?

They should be here instead:

 

[Edgetho]

At least you took the time to read it.

I give you credit for having more intellectual curiosity than your peers, at least.

 

[Wuwei]

A solution in the article:

"Go to school, study, get a job, be productive. That's what we expect from you, it's what we expect from our own kids, it's the life we live ourselves."​

I see that "solution" a lot. It will work for maybe around 20% of the people. In another sense it is a bit myopic. If 100% of them got a higher education, what you will find are most of them overqualified for a minimum wage job with the extra burden of a heavy school loan. There aren't enough jobs with survival level wages to get everyone off the streets.

 

[usfan]

A solution in the article:

"Go to school, study, get a job, be productive. That's what we expect from you, it's what we expect from our own kids, it's the life we live ourselves."​

I see that "solution" a lot. It will work for maybe around 20% of the people. In another sense it is a bit myopic. If 100% of them got a higher education, what you will find are most of them overqualified for a minimum wage job with the extra burden of a heavy school loan. There aren't enough jobs with survival level wages to get everyone off the streets.

For all of human history, people had to work & struggle to survive. Why should some people be given a free ride?
Why should those who DO work be burdened with those who don't want to?
If some people want to be antisocial outliers in a culture, why should the productive members of society be forced to support and legitimitize them?

 

[Wuwei]

For all of human history, people had to work & struggle to survive. Why should some people be given a free ride?
Why should those who DO work be burdened with those who don't want to?
If some people want to be antisocial outliers in a culture, why should the productive members of society be forced to support and legitimitize them?

I agree, but you are talking about only 9% of the people. Most that can work do work. Even then, of those 9%, much of that involves health care and unemployment insurance while they look for jobs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...its-from-the-federal-government-in-six-charts

“Three-quarters of entitlement benefits written into law in the United States go toward the elderly or disabled. That's according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. And a big chunk of the rest goes to working households. Only about 9 percent of all entitlement benefits go toward non-elderly, non-disabled households without jobs (and much of that involves health care and unemployment insurance)”​

 

[usfan]

..doesn't matter if it is 9, 20, or 3%. Why should antisocial outliers be coddled and legitimatized?
Why should those who work and who ARE responsible, productive members of society support and encourage those who are not?

 

[Wuwei]

..doesn't matter if it is 9, 20, or 3%. Why should antisocial outliers be coddled and legitimatized?
Why should those who work and who ARE responsible, productive members of society support and encourage those who are not?

I don't see a prevalence of "coddling" at all in welfare recipients. The prevalence of "welfare queens" is a myth. They amount to a fraction of a percent.
But now you talk about antisocial outliers. I'm not sure what you are saying. You seem to be conflating welfare recipients with antisocial outliers. If not, you should be more clear.

You seem to be complaining about the 9% who are largely on unemployment insurance or receiving health care. In my state you can't get unemployment benefits unless you can prove you are looking for a job.

 

[usfan]

..doesn't matter if it is 9, 20, or 3%. Why should antisocial outliers be coddled and legitimatized?
Why should those who work and who ARE responsible, productive members of society support and encourage those who are not?

I don't see a prevalence of "coddling" at all in welfare recipients. The prevalence of "welfare queens" is a myth. They amount to a fraction of a percent.
But now you talk about antisocial outliers. I'm not sure what you are saying. You seem to be conflating welfare recipients with antisocial outliers. If not, you should be more clear.

You seem to be complaining about the 9% who are largely on unemployment insurance or receiving health care. In my state you can't get unemployment benefits unless you can prove you are looking for a job.

I am talking about human existence and survival. Why should some people, who are responsible and contributing positively to society, be burdened with those who can't or won't? Why should a third party decide to take what one person has worked for, and split it with his cronies?
Social policy has to have a sound basis, philosophically, or it is a Utopian fantasy.

 

[Wuwei]

I am talking about human existence and survival. Why should some people, who are responsible and contributing positively to society, be burdened with those who can't or won't? Why should a third party decide to take what one person has worked for, and split it with his cronies?
Social policy has to have a sound basis, philosophically, or it is a Utopian fantasy.

"Split it with his cronies" - you think the elderly and disabled are cronies? That's an overreach.

Sure. I see your point. Then what do you propose society do with the large majority of those on welfare who are too old or disabled to work? Also remember that by definition 50% of people are below average intelligence. So, what do you propose to do with those who cannot do well in school and only be able to get jobs at wages below subsistence level.

We certainly are not a utopia. I'm not promoting welfare here, but just curious how you would handle those people.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Hundreds of (mostly black) Americans line up for hours for a few jobs at a Walmart.

Why don't you people dispense your economic genius to the hundreds who didn't get a job that day?

 

[usfan]

I am talking about human existence and survival. Why should some people, who are responsible and contributing positively to society, be burdened with those who can't or won't? Why should a third party decide to take what one person has worked for, and split it with his cronies?
Social policy has to have a sound basis, philosophically, or it is a Utopian fantasy.

"Split it with his cronies" - you think the elderly and disabled are cronies? That's an overreach.

Sure. I see your point. Then what do you propose society do with the large majority of those on welfare who are too old or disabled to work? Also remember that by definition 50% of people are below average intelligence. So, what do you propose to do with those who cannot do well in school and only be able to get jobs at wages below subsistence level.

We certainly are not a utopia. I'm not promoting welfare here, but just curious how you would handle those people.

1. Eliminate the welfare state. It breeds corruption and is a fiscal failure. This will take some time weaning people off of dependency.
2. Turn the culture from looking to govt to looking to the family for a safety net. Family centered cultures are stronger and last longer than state centered ones.
3. Collective policies that aid families, rather than usurp them, can be considered by LOCAL communities.
4. Put responsibility for old age back where it belongs: with the individual. If someone wants to live like a grasshopper in their working years, why should they be afforded security and abundance in their retirement?
5. Let local communities provide soup kitchens, pauper houses, or other welfare solutions they can pay for and manage. Distant, centralized control breeds corruption and inefficiency.

 

[usfan]

Hundreds of (mostly black) Americans line up for hours for a few jobs at a Walmart.

Why don't you people dispense your economic genius to the hundreds who didn't get a job that day?

Why is it my responsibility to get anyone a job?

 

[Wuwei]

Why is it my responsibility to get anyone a job?

Right. It's nobody's responsibility. But beware, if they can't find jobs they may find their own way of making a living by dealing drugs, stealing cars, looting, prostitution, tax refund fraud, .....Jobs are for your and the nations well being.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A solution in the article:

"Go to school, study, get a job, be productive. That's what we expect from you, it's what we expect from our own kids, it's the life we live ourselves."​

I see that "solution" a lot. It will work for maybe around 20% of the people. In another sense it is a bit myopic. If 100% of them got a higher education, what you will find are most of them overqualified for a minimum wage job with the extra burden of a heavy school loan. There aren't enough jobs with survival level wages to get everyone off the streets.

Twenty percent? And how did you arrive at this number? What is this prediction based on? And who said higher education automatically leads to unemployment with huge school loans you can't pay? Also, what makes you think the number of available jobs is static?

Oh, and what solution would you advocate that doesn't involve being educated and productive? How's it going to work?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why is it my responsibility to get anyone a job?

Right. It's nobody's responsibility. But beware, if they can't find jobs they may find their own way of making a living by dealing drugs, stealing cars, looting, prostitution, tax refund fraud, .....Jobs are for your and the nations well being.

Riiiiight. Criminals are really good-hearted folks who just turned to harming others out of despair after numerous attempts to get hired at McDonald's failed.

 

[Wuwei]

1. Eliminate the welfare state. It breeds corruption and is a fiscal failure. This will take some time weaning people off of dependency.
2. Turn the culture from looking to govt to looking to the family for a safety net. Family centered cultures are stronger and last longer than state centered ones.
3. Collective policies that aid families, rather than usurp them, can be considered by LOCAL communities.
4. Put responsibility for old age back where it belongs: with the individual. If someone wants to live like a grasshopper in their working years, why should they be afforded security and abundance in their retirement?
5. Let local communities provide soup kitchens, pauper houses, or other welfare solutions they can pay for and manage. Distant, centralized control breeds corruption and inefficiency.

1. Sure. If you can, after a few generations. But it is not a failure. It's the best we can do so far.
2. How do you do that with dysfunctional families and dysfunctional schools?
3. Where to get the money? Increase local taxes? In Detroit, Baltimore, etc. the middle class largely moved to the suburbs.
4. That is often not their choice. Wages at survival level doesn't allow for IRA's and Keogh plans. Often one medical disaster, or missed payments and foreclosure will wipe out everything.
5. Many exist where I live. They can't handle the load.

Defining a utopia is one thing. Figuring out how to get there is the real problem.
One underlying problem is the sparsity of jobs with middle class pay. Automation and outsourcing is increasingly eliminating manufacturing and service jobs.