France outlaws burkas

[Valerie]

Wow...all this because of 1900 women?

It does seem odd, doesn't it, that so few of them caused such a disturbance to have to create this law...I am conflicted as well, since I hate to see personal liberties taken away...But there is that sense of an imminent threat.


If it is sometimes legally justifiable for public surveillance, how is this any different than the legal standard of reasonable expectation of privacy? Do they really have a "right" to completely cover their face in public?

Does a democratic government have a "right" to forbid a religious practice that is for all intents and purposes harmless because someone might take advantage?

Covering their entire face is not actually required by their religion...And the vast majority of the French population supports their Senate vote of 246 to 1 that covering faces in public is not considered "harmless for all intents and purposes".

Muslim leaders concur that Islam does not require a woman to hide her face. But they have voiced concerns that a law forbidding them to do so would stigmatize the French Muslim population, which at an estimated five million is the second largest in France and the largest in western Europe. Numerous Muslim women who wear the face-covering veil have said they are now being harassed in the streets.

CBC News - World - French Senate bans burka

 

[Kalam]

Covering their entire face is not actually required by their religion...

That's a matter of interpretation and governments -- particularly non-Islamic governments -- have no business interpreting our religion for us.

 

[Valerie]

Covering their entire face is not actually required by their religion...

That's a matter of interpretation and governments -- particularly non-Islamic governments -- have no business interpreting our religion for us.

Did you see the bold part above that says Muslim leaders concur???

 

[ConHog]

Covering their entire face is not actually required by their religion...

That's a matter of interpretation and governments -- particularly non-Islamic governments -- have no business interpreting our religion for us.

Did you see the bold part above that says Muslim leaders concur???

You people need to read Kalam's posts more carefully. He is clearly of the opinion that non Muslims both people and governments should fuck off and die. He has advocated ignoring laws that conflict with Islam and has expressed glee in the attacks that his fellow terrorists have perpetrated.

 

[manifold]

I think that women shouldn't be forced to dress in a certain way by anyone...the government especially.

That contradicts some of your earlier comments, like this one for example...

Seriously, though, I think this is wrong... unless it was for a matter of imminent threat...

Are you now retracting your previously expressed opinion that it COULD be justified by an imminent threat?

 

[Kalam]

Covering their entire face is not actually required by their religion...

That's a matter of interpretation and governments -- particularly non-Islamic governments -- have no business interpreting our religion for us.

Did you see the bold part above that says Muslim leaders concur???

Sunni Islam has no clerical hierarchy. The word of one scholar is no more binding than the next and you can find scholars that represent just about every side of most issues like this. You've probably noticed, for example, that the Saudi dress code in certain parts of the country requires niqab.

 

[Ravi]

It does seem odd, doesn't it, that so few of them caused such a disturbance to have to create this law...I am conflicted as well, since I hate to see personal liberties taken away...But there is that sense of an imminent threat.


If it is sometimes legally justifiable for public surveillance, how is this any different than the legal standard of reasonable expectation of privacy? Do they really have a "right" to completely cover their face in public?

Does a democratic government have a "right" to forbid a religious practice that is for all intents and purposes harmless because someone might take advantage?

Covering their entire face is not actually required by their religion...And the vast majority of the French population supports their Senate vote of 246 to 1 that covering faces in public is not considered "harmless for all intents and purposes".

Muslim leaders concur that Islam does not require a woman to hide her face. But they have voiced concerns that a law forbidding them to do so would stigmatize the French Muslim population, which at an estimated five million is the second largest in France and the largest in western Europe. Numerous Muslim women who wear the face-covering veil have said they are now being harassed in the streets.

CBC News - World - French Senate bans burka

I don't think that matters. Catholics aren't required to wear crosses around their necks but many of them do.

 

[Sunni Man]

The burqa ban is just another attemp to intimidate muslims in the West.

We are used to being vilified and discriminated against.

Quran burning, banning of mosque construction, etc.

It's not going to stop us. Nor is it going to drives us away.

All these petty slaps in the face do is weaken the moderate muslims position.

Then the extremists say to the moderates, "We told you so".

 

[frazzledgear]

I can understand why they did it...but are they not condemning some women to choosing between their religious beliefs and their ability to leave the house?

France only proves time and again why we should bend over backwards to AVOID imitating them. What a pack of total losers.

First they open their doors to Muslim immigrants and encouraged them to come to France by the millions because they wanted to exploit them as a source of cheap labor. As a result France has a significantly higher Muslim population than we do. But at the very same time their Muslim population is significantly more poor as a whole compared to other groups in France. Instead of doing all they could to positively encourage them to assimilate them into their society, once they arrived they were herded into Muslim ghettos where they are cut off from the general population, where they are significantly more poor as a whole and as a result where rage, resentment and extremism flourish. THEN after realizing what a tinderbox they are creating for themselves, they do stuff like passing this law in the belief they can now FORCE their Muslim population to outwardly pretend to be well assimilated into their general population. Even as they remain segregated, exploited and poor -but now their Muslim population WANTS to be isolated from their general population. Wearing a burka in a western nation is an indication of the severity of isolation felt by their Muslim population from the general population. And France will never relieve that by demanding their Muslim population PRETEND they are assimilated with a change of clothing -while nothing else about their circumstances changes at all. This law will only further fuel their anger, resentment, isolation -and extremism. France's Muslim population is SIGNIFICANTLY more extremist than our own. What they did to their own Muslim population was born of French arrogance and belief that France is for the "real" French -they do NOT want to be a nation of immigrants as the US is, which is why they deliberately isolated their immigrant Muslim population. I have no sympathy for what they are bringing down on themselves as their result of their own arrogance and condescension for others and deliberate policies to exploit others for their own benefit while denying them full status in their country that the French believe is reserved for themselves alone. The French suck at freedom and to this day haven't a clue what it really is. It is why even though the US is one of the youngest nations in the world, it is closing in on having liberated 1 billion other human beings during its existence. While France, which is centuries older than the US- has liberated ZERO. Unlike our country, the French really do believe liberty is something to be hoarded for themselves, not shared. God save us all from the French and their "values".

We did it differently here. Muslims here are free to wear burkas if they want -the difference is in this country, we didn't herd them into Muslim ghettos when they did immigrate, we didn't try to exploit them financially for our own benefit, they don't feel segregated off from our general population and they don't want to be either. We gave them the freedom to live their lives as they saw fit and for the most part, they chose to be Americans and fully assimilated into our general population. The day we pass a law outlawing the wearing of any article of clothing in public that denotes someone's religion -is the day we have tossed our Constitution into the trash. FREEDOM works -force does not.

 

[Ravi]

I think that women shouldn't be forced to dress in a certain way by anyone...the government especially.

That contradicts some of your earlier comments, like this one for example...

Seriously, though, I think this is wrong... unless it was for a matter of imminent threat...

Are you now retracting your previously expressed opinion that it COULD be justified by an imminent threat?

Again, I do not believe this is an imminent threat. This is no different than how I feel about racial profiling. If a certain ethnic group is suddenly suicide bombing planes then go right ahead and profile. If they aren't then there is no reason to do so.

 

[Ravi]

I can understand why they did it...but are they not condemning some women to choosing between their religious beliefs and their ability to leave the house?

France only proves time and again why we should bend over backwards to AVOID imitating them. What a pack of total losers.

First they open their doors to Muslim immigrants and encouraged them to come to France by the millions because they wanted to exploit them as a source of cheap labor. As a result France has a significantly higher Muslim population than we do. But at the very same time their Muslim population is significantly more poor as a whole compared to other groups in France. Instead of doing all they could to positively encourage them to assimilate them into their society, once they arrived they were herded into Muslim ghettos where they are cut off from the general population, where they are significantly more poor as a whole and as a result where rage, resentment and extremism flourish. THEN after realizing what a tinderbox they are creating for themselves, they do stuff like passing this law in the belief they can now FORCE their Muslim population to outwardly pretend to be well assimilated into their general population. Even as they remain segregated, exploited and poor -but now their Muslim population WANTS to be isolated from their general population. Wearing a burka in a western nation is an indication of the severity of isolation felt by their Muslim population from the general population. And France will never relieve that by demanding their Muslim population PRETEND they are assimilated with a change of clothing -while nothing else about their circumstances changes at all. This law will only further fuel their anger, resentment, isolation -and extremism. France's Muslim population is SIGNIFICANTLY more extremist than our own. What they did to their own Muslim population was born of French arrogance and belief that France is for the "real" French -they do NOT want to be a nation of immigrants as the US is, which is why they deliberately isolated their immigrant Muslim population. I have no sympathy for what they are bringing down on themselves as their result of their own arrogance and condescension for others and deliberate policies to exploit others for their own benefit while denying them full status in their country that the French believe is reserved for themselves alone. The French suck at freedom and to this day haven't a clue what it really is. It is why even though the US is one of the youngest nations in the world, it is closing in on having liberated 1 billion other human beings during its existence. While France, which is centuries older than the US- has liberated ZERO. Unlike our country, the French really do believe liberty is something to be hoarded for themselves, not shared. God save us all from the French and their "values".

We did it differently here. Muslims here are free to wear burkas if they want -the difference is in this country, we didn't herd them into Muslim ghettos when they did immigrate, we didn't try to exploit them financially for our own benefit, they don't feel segregated off from our general population and they don't want to be either. We gave them the freedom to live their lives as they saw fit and for the most part, they chose to be Americans and fully assimilated into our general population. The day we pass a law outlawing the wearing of any article of clothing in public that denotes someone's religion -is the day we have tossed our Constitution into the trash. FREEDOM works -force does not.

Wow. I do believe that is the first intelligent things I've ever seen you post.

 

[manifold]

Again, I do not believe this is an imminent threat...

But if you did, you'd conclude that the ban is justified, correct?

 

[Ravi]

Again, I do not believe this is an imminent threat...

But if you did, you'd conclude that the ban is justified, correct?

Temporarily, yes. And not just for women.

 

[ConHog]

I think that women shouldn't be forced to dress in a certain way by anyone...the government especially.

That contradicts some of your earlier comments, like this one for example...

Seriously, though, I think this is wrong... unless it was for a matter of imminent threat...

Are you now retracting your previously expressed opinion that it COULD be justified by an imminent threat?

Again, I do not believe this is an imminent threat. This is no different than how I feel about racial profiling. If a certain ethnic group is suddenly suicide bombing planes then go right ahead and profile. If they aren't then there is no reason to do so.

you are so stupid. Can you give me one example of profiling being used when it wasn't the case that the group being profiled needed to be profiled?

 

[manifold]

Again, I do not believe this is an imminent threat...

But if you did, you'd conclude that the ban is justified, correct?

Temporarily, yes. And not just for women.

Are you telling me that this ban doesn't apply to men also? That men, if they chose to, could wear burkas?

 

[nia588]

Ignorance of what goes on in the middle east is still in style I see. Instead bashing a region of the world leave your couch every once and while and actually see it for yourself.

Only Saudi and Iran (and in some parts of yemen) do they impose the hijab. In the rest of the middle east you can pretty much wear whatever. And actually in some places like Tunisia and Morroco hijab is actually discouraged in many work places.

I lived in the middle east for over 10 years and I faced no problems being hijabless. I actually knew some women who's families forbade them from wearing hijab (which i think is wrong because every woman has choice)

and many of the women who wore niqab were educated and it was their choice.

and it's a myth you can't drive with the niqab on. it doesn't impair your vision in anyway. i tested it myself.

 

[Ravi]

But if you did, you'd conclude that the ban is justified, correct?

Temporarily, yes. And not just for women.

Are you telling me that this ban doesn't apply to men also? That men, if they chose to, could wear burkas?

Let us see if any sheiks arrive in France and are told to change into a business suit.

 

[Si modo]

Ignorance of what goes on in the middle east is still in style I see.

Only Saudi and Iran (and in some parts of yemen) do they impose the hijab. In the rest of the middle east you can pretty much wear whatever. And actually in some places like Tunisia and Morroco hijab is actually discouraged in many work places.

I lived in the middle east for over 10 years and I faced no problems being hijabless. I actually knew some women who's families forbade them from wearing hijab (which i think is wrong because every woman has choice)

and many of the women who wore niqab were educated and it was their choice.

and it's a myth you can't drive with the niqab on. it doesn't impair your vision in anyway. i tested it myself.

Then the woman I encountered driving in one was a moron. She drove like shit and was a hazard on the road. She clearly did not see me and others when she tried to pull in front of us.

It limits vision and that's a hazard when driving.

 

[nia588]

Ignorance of what goes on in the middle east is still in style I see.

Only Saudi and Iran (and in some parts of yemen) do they impose the hijab. In the rest of the middle east you can pretty much wear whatever. And actually in some places like Tunisia and Morroco hijab is actually discouraged in many work places.

I lived in the middle east for over 10 years and I faced no problems being hijabless. I actually knew some women who's families forbade them from wearing hijab (which i think is wrong because every woman has choice)

and many of the women who wore niqab were educated and it was their choice.

and it's a myth you can't drive with the niqab on. it doesn't impair your vision in anyway. i tested it myself.

Then the woman I encountered driving in one was a moron. She drove like shit and was a hazard on the road. She clearly did not see me and others when she tried to pull in front of us.

It limits vision and that's a hazard when driving.

the woman is probably a crappy driver with or without the niqab. like i said i drove with the face veil on before and it does not in anyway impair vision.

try it for youself if you don't believe me.

 

[Si modo]

Ignorance of what goes on in the middle east is still in style I see.

Only Saudi and Iran (and in some parts of yemen) do they impose the hijab. In the rest of the middle east you can pretty much wear whatever. And actually in some places like Tunisia and Morroco hijab is actually discouraged in many work places.

I lived in the middle east for over 10 years and I faced no problems being hijabless. I actually knew some women who's families forbade them from wearing hijab (which i think is wrong because every woman has choice)

and many of the women who wore niqab were educated and it was their choice.

and it's a myth you can't drive with the niqab on. it doesn't impair your vision in anyway. i tested it myself.

Then the woman I encountered driving in one was a moron. She drove like shit and was a hazard on the road. She clearly did not see me and others when she tried to pull in front of us.

It limits vision and that's a hazard when driving.

the woman is probably a crappy driver with or without the niqab. like i said i drove with the face veil on before and it does not in anyway impair vision.

try it for youself if you don't believe me.

No thanks. I like my car too much.

Fact: The niqab limits vision, especially peripheral vision.

Fact: One must pass a peripheral vision test to be legally licensed to drive in many states. I wonder why that is necessary?