Four ways Christians are getting the gay debate wrong

[poet]

That would be most Christians.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Which means you haven't a clue. I'll wait until you get around asking "most Christians", before I accept your position as valid. Too funny.

I'm a real Christian and that is how I feel! To me a person is not a homosexual unless he or she is engaging in sex with someone of the same gender. I'm not going to make fun of a person who acts as what some label "fruity." And actually, this is all stereotyping, because some of the most "macho" men are actually "fruits" themselves. A fornicator is not a fornicator until he fornicates. Now Jesus does say that even if one thinks it one has done it (Jimmy Carter once mentioned this); however, Jesus was pointing out that just because people do not do certain things doesn't make them better. At the same time though, Jesus isn't saying that one might as well just give up an go do this or that. Jesus is saying we all need the SAVIOR. And God will forgive all our transgressions. We need to strive to set righteous examples. America is best when it is promoting the IDEAL. America becomes a byword when as we become selfish.

Wow. Well, whether you're a good and faithful one, remains to be seen ("Ye shall know them by their fruits"). And fortunately, it's not up to you to judge or determine what constitutes, much less, "a homosexual", or homosexual behavior.
You make no sense with statements like, "A fornicator is not a fornicator until he fornicates".
And I couldn't be more opposed to people proselytizing, quoting scripture, or telling anyone what the Bible is saying, when the Bible is "readily available" to all, and scripture is open to interpretation, hence a "multitude" of preachers, viewpoints, faiths, and beliefs.
America is best when it is promoting Freedom, upon which it was founded. The 1st amendment provides for freedom of religion, as well as freedom from it. And don't get upset if others see things differently from you...as is their prerogative, by way of the Constitution.

 

[poet]

I don't think Christians have a problem with anyone being a homosexual, just with someone engaging in homosexual acts. Your link talks about the basketball player who came out... if he had said I'm gay but don't have sex he probably would be a hero amongst many Christians.

BS. Most "fake" Christians, see it as one and the same. And BS. Which "Christians" would those be?

Where is all the "gay" love..? All we hear is "BS"

Was that your attempt at being humorous or clever...because you failed on both fronts?

 

[Euroconservativ]

If we Christians can’t show more love and willingness to listen, it won’t change one person from gay to straight, but it will turn a lot of people against Christianity...."

A lot of people will turn against Christianity once it becomes fashionable

The same way that gay marriage has become fashionable in just one year or two.

Thinking trends among the masses are manufactured by politicians, journalists and movies

I bet that the first (openly) atheist US president will be celebrated

 

[poet]

If we Christians can’t show more love and willingness to listen, it won’t change one person from gay to straight, but it will turn a lot of people against Christianity...."

A lot of people will turn against Christianity once it becomes fashionable

The same way that gay marriage has become fashionable in just one year or two.

Thinking trends among the masses are manufactured by politicians, journalists and movies

I bet that the first (openly) atheist US president will be celebrated

Where is the evidence of that? If anything it's "the moral majority" ("fake Christians") and the evangelicals (more "fake Christians") and the religious "right" (still, more "fake Christians") who are giving Christianity a "black eye" ( along with the Catholic Church and its' hypocrisy and myriad clergy sex scandals). More of "shooting one's self in the foot", than any attacks from without.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I don't think Christians have a problem with anyone being a homosexual, just with someone engaging in homosexual acts. Your link talks about the basketball player who came out... if he had said I'm gay but don't have sex he probably would be a hero amongst many Christians.

That's sick. And really cold blooded.

How could a god make someone gay and then want him/her to live a life of loneliness?

 

[alan1]

I don't think Christians have a problem with anyone being a homosexual, just with someone engaging in homosexual acts. Your link talks about the basketball player who came out... if he had said I'm gay but don't have sex he probably would be a hero amongst many Christians.

That's sick. And really cold blooded.

How could a god make someone gay and then want him/her to live a life of loneliness?

Wow, interesting perspective you have.

The Christians I know also pray for the homeless, the cancer patients, the people in wars, this kids, the starving, and the unemployed in addition to the homosexuals.
They do that whether or not they believe god made them that way.

Oh, and by the way, why do you thing homosexuals "live a life of loneliness"?

You seem to be falsely implying a lot of things based upon your perceptions, not reality.

 

[LittleNipper]

BS. Most "fake" Christians, see it as one and the same. And BS. Which "Christians" would those be?

Where is all the "gay" love..? All we hear is "BS"

Was that your attempt at being humorous or clever...because you failed on both fronts?

Why not just shoot me and you would have one less Bible thumper to contend with?

 

[poet]

Where is all the "gay" love..? All we hear is "BS"

Was that your attempt at being humorous or clever...because you failed on both fronts?

Why not just shoot me and you would have one less Bible thumper to contend with?

I don't shoot people. I hate guns. Repeal the Second Amendment. ban all guns.

 

[LittleNipper]

Was that your attempt at being humorous or clever...because you failed on both fronts?

Why not just shoot me and you would have one less Bible thumper to contend with?

I don't shoot people. I hate guns. Repeal the Second Amendment. ban all guns.

Ok, so you would lock me up and throw away the key...

 

[poet]

Why not just shoot me and you would have one less Bible thumper to contend with?

I don't shoot people. I hate guns. Repeal the Second Amendment. ban all guns.

Ok, so you would lock me up and throw away the key...

Why? The crazy, mentally disturbed and homeless roam the streets, unhindered, daily.

 

[ShackledNation]

That would be most Christians.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Which means you haven't a clue. I'll wait until you get around asking "most Christians", before I accept your position as valid. Too funny.

I'm a real Christian and that is how I feel! To me a person is not a homosexual unless he or she is engaging in sex with someone of the same gender. I'm not going to make fun of a person who acts as what some label "fruity." And actually, this is all stereotyping, because some of the most "macho" men are actually "fruits" themselves. A fornicator is not a fornicator until he fornicates. Now Jesus does say that even if one thinks it one has done it (Jimmy Carter once mentioned this); however, Jesus was pointing out that just because people do not do certain things doesn't make them better. At the same time though, Jesus isn't saying that one might as well just give up an go do this or that. Jesus is saying we all need the SAVIOR. And God will forgive all our transgressions. We need to strive to set righteous examples. America is best when it is promoting the IDEAL. America becomes a byword when as we become selfish.

Is a priest asexual for being abstinent? No. Sexual actions do not define one's sexuality. Homosexuality is the attraction towards the same-sex, regardless of whether that attraction is acted upon. If a gay man has sex with a woman, he is still gay.

 

[ShackledNation]

I don't think Christians have a problem with anyone being a homosexual, just with someone engaging in homosexual acts. Your link talks about the basketball player who came out... if he had said I'm gay but don't have sex he probably would be a hero amongst many Christians.

Absolutely. I have a friend who tells me he doesn't believe he was born that way, it is his choice of what attracts him - which is men. But he isn't in any relationship and hasn't been for years. It is a temptation - an attraction for him - well temptation isn't a sin! If it were a sin then Jesus wouldn't be sinless because the scriptures clearly state Jesus was tempted and sinned not.

My friend can be in heaven just as quickly as any world famous preacher could be. It isn't a sin to be tempted. Of course, we should never be doing what Westboro cult has been said to be doing. I don't even consider that a church. I've never seen anything like what they have been reported doing.

And my friend, who is a renowned scientist studying sexuality for decades, says that homosexuality is not a choice. But wait...how can we prove our friends are real in an online forum? We can't. My point: anecdotal evidence like that is useless and provides no foundation for argument in this context.

 

[FA_Q2]

I don't think Christians have a problem with anyone being a homosexual, just with someone engaging in homosexual acts. Your link talks about the basketball player who came out... if he had said I'm gay but don't have sex he probably would be a hero amongst many Christians.

Absolutely. I have a friend who tells me he doesn't believe he was born that way, it is his choice of what attracts him - which is men. But he isn't in any relationship and hasn't been for years. It is a temptation - an attraction for him - well temptation isn't a sin! If it were a sin then Jesus wouldn't be sinless because the scriptures clearly state Jesus was tempted and sinned not.

My friend can be in heaven just as quickly as any world famous preacher could be. It isn't a sin to be tempted. Of course, we should never be doing what Westboro cult has been said to be doing. I don't even consider that a church. I've never seen anything like what they have been reported doing.

And my friend, who is a renowned scientist studying sexuality for decades, says that homosexuality is not a choice. But wait...how can we prove our friends are real in an online forum? We can't. My point: anecdotal evidence like that is useless and provides no foundation for argument in this context.

I will tell you what did it for me. I realized that being gay was NOT a choice the day that I reflected back to when I ‘decided’ to like girls. The reality is that no one actually ‘chooses’ to be attracted to women. It simply happens. Normally, we even hide this from our peers as women are ‘yucky’ and have cooties. That occurrence is natural and out of your control. The idea that you chose this to happen is rather insane.

I will admit that it is possible for someone to force it and actually make it a choice. That is in the same manner that a gay person forces themselves into a straight relationship even if they truly are gay. I, personally would find that rather difficult – some parts on me just don’t work in the presence of other nude men, but it is possible. It likely even happens but to declare that being gay is a choice for everyone and they can simply ignore that basic part of them is nuts.

 

[ShackledNation]

Absolutely. I have a friend who tells me he doesn't believe he was born that way, it is his choice of what attracts him - which is men. But he isn't in any relationship and hasn't been for years. It is a temptation - an attraction for him - well temptation isn't a sin! If it were a sin then Jesus wouldn't be sinless because the scriptures clearly state Jesus was tempted and sinned not.

My friend can be in heaven just as quickly as any world famous preacher could be. It isn't a sin to be tempted. Of course, we should never be doing what Westboro cult has been said to be doing. I don't even consider that a church. I've never seen anything like what they have been reported doing.

And my friend, who is a renowned scientist studying sexuality for decades, says that homosexuality is not a choice. But wait...how can we prove our friends are real in an online forum? We can't. My point: anecdotal evidence like that is useless and provides no foundation for argument in this context.

I will tell you what did it for me. I realized that being gay was NOT a choice the day that I reflected back to when I ‘decided’ to like girls. The reality is that no one actually ‘chooses’ to be attracted to women. It simply happens. Normally, we even hide this from our peers as women are ‘yucky’ and have cooties. That occurrence is natural and out of your control. The idea that you chose this to happen is rather insane.

I will admit that it is possible for someone to force it and actually make it a choice. That is in the same manner that a gay person forces themselves into a straight relationship even if they truly are gay. I, personally would find that rather difficult – some parts on me just don’t work in the presence of other nude men, but it is possible. It likely even happens but to declare that being gay is a choice for everyone and they can simply ignore that basic part of them is nuts.

I agree. You are preaching to the choir.

 

[FA_Q2]

I agree. You are preaching to the choir.

I know
Didn’t mean to ‘preach’ though. I find that the anti-gay rights crowed refuses to reconcile this basic biological fact so I bring it into most discussions on this topic. It is important to recognize that for all our wonderful ideas on free will, we need to face the fact that not everything we do is purely a choice. There are biological functions that are at work here that MUST be acknowledged.

 

[LittleNipper]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Which means you haven't a clue. I'll wait until you get around asking "most Christians", before I accept your position as valid. Too funny.

I'm a real Christian and that is how I feel! To me a person is not a homosexual unless he or she is engaging in sex with someone of the same gender. I'm not going to make fun of a person who acts as what some label "fruity." And actually, this is all stereotyping, because some of the most "macho" men are actually "fruits" themselves. A fornicator is not a fornicator until he fornicates. Now Jesus does say that even if one thinks it one has done it (Jimmy Carter once mentioned this); however, Jesus was pointing out that just because people do not do certain things doesn't make them better. At the same time though, Jesus isn't saying that one might as well just give up an go do this or that. Jesus is saying we all need the SAVIOR. And God will forgive all our transgressions. We need to strive to set righteous examples. America is best when it is promoting the IDEAL. America becomes a byword when as we become selfish.

Is a priest asexual for being abstinent? No. Sexual actions do not define one's sexuality. Homosexuality is the attraction towards the same-sex, regardless of whether that attraction is acted upon. If a gay man has sex with a woman, he is still gay.

The act is what is harmful and sinful. To fight against the act is heroic. And actually a human "homosexual" is not a reality. For such would mean that two men joined together could produce a child. They can not. There are species that are asexual in that they divide to multiply. The Catholic priest is a male. His ability to produce children doesn't change because he isn't engaged in sex. And the way he would produce offspring doesn't change either.

 

[LittleNipper]

I don't shoot people. I hate guns. Repeal the Second Amendment. ban all guns.

Ok, so you would lock me up and throw away the key...

Why? The crazy, mentally disturbed and homeless roam the streets, unhindered, daily.

Don't blame me for that --- blame youself.

 

[poet]

Ok, so you would lock me up and throw away the key...

Why? The crazy, mentally disturbed and homeless roam the streets, unhindered, daily.

Don't blame me for that --- blame youself.

Blame myself??? That is you, and you're responsible for yourself.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Crumbs from the Communion Table ? Four ways Christians are getting the gay debate wrong.
"......Let me be clear: I think everyone has a right to their moral views, even when they disagree with mine. We Americans can disagree on the morality of gay sex just as we can disagree on the morality of eating meat or drinking alcohol. We Christians have disagreed for centuries on theological questions from the makeup of the Scriptures to infant baptism to transubstantiation. But this isn’t just about a moral disagreement; it’s about how we treat one another and how we talk about one another. If we Christians can’t show more love and willingness to listen, it won’t change one person from gay to straight, but it will turn a lot of people against Christianity...."

Hush, truth.

You're confused. God's word is clear. Homosexuality is an abomination. Period. Either one believes God or believes a lie. Period. There is no "willingness to listen". There is repentance or damnation for all. Period. Precisely how one comes to homosexuality is not relevant at all. Beyond that, God can and does deliver people from homosexuality all the time. The rest is just you rejecting the realities of the Fall, its effect on man on every level of his being, including genetics. Can you say, "illusion"?

 

[turzovka]

Four ways Christians are getting the gay debate wrong.

1. Equating “being gay” with “having sex.”

So what if most do? Are you looking for a technicality to throw the whole main argument out? The vast, vast majority of “Christians” (quotations since that term is now far more difficult to define than “being gay”) when voicing their opinions or disapproval on this topic are using the assumption we are talking about the act. So let not your author create this big division or diversion where none really exists.

2. Using that (assumed) sex act to define us as people.

How so? And where and when? If you are gay and protesting against the Catholic Church’s stance on gay marriage, then in that context we may refer to your sexual choice as a way of describing you. If you are trying to sell me insurance, I will not ask you first if you are gay. Once again, your author is making a needless and distracting argument.

3. Treating gay people as symbols of a culture war instead of as human beings.

How naïve is this author? Being gay or promoting the gay agenda is going to be controversial in a society that still mostly considers it to be an unpleasant find amongst their own family, a sinful matter (the act) within their religious beliefs, and a disturbing idea to have their own children think about or consider. It is unnatural (for one) no matter how much you care to spin it.

4. Assuming that being gay is a choice.

I see, so science has proven to the world this is an open and shut case, and for any of us to question that is bigoted to say the least? So is bi-sexual a choice? Is there a gene for that, too? You think culture and society’s norms do not influence a confused teen or an eager experimenting teen to go further?
Nowadays, gay is hot. Gay is mainstream (some bullying notwithstanding) where you can be accepted at a young age and pursue your desires. Good and bad. Not for one second do I think teenage girls who “hook up” for the excitement of the sex have one molecule of a “gay gene” in their bodies. I just think sexual desires manifest themselves in many, many ways, and if there is no moral or spiritual conscience holding one back, they will very likely experiment.
I am opposed to shaming or discriminating against gays. I am heavily opposed to Christians telling them they will go to hell because of their sin. But I am also heavily opposed to public schools promoting this lifestyle as normal or a perfectly ok path to choose. Because this is a moral and spiritual matter, and the government has no right to be an advocate for something that may have grave eternal implications. It is a religious matter in many ways.
So have your gay marriage, but don’t think that God has not weighed in on this. I believe the free immoral environment the West has been relishing in for 50 years has contributed greatly to influencing and enticing humanity to choose whatever sexual path “feels right” and that surely is now evident. Many more now experiment with gay sex and openly promote it to others who are young or not sure about themselves. This is a bad moral development in my opinion. Not unlike how all other kinds of pre-marital sex have been promoted and given the public’s blessing which is just as bad or worse than the gay phenomenon.

We Christians have disagreed for centuries on theological questions from the makeup of the Scriptures to infant baptism to transubstantiation.

Yes, so what? Are you suggesting that one position cannot be more correct and the other wrong according to God? Or do you think God wants everyone to use their own poorly formed consciences and self-centered desires to determine what is good and what is bad?
I see somewhere else in this thread you call fundamentalists bad christians, evangelists bad christians, right wing christians bad christians and catholics hypocrites and bad christians. Oh please, enlighten us what you are that makes you a good christian? Is it your propensity to judge everyone?

But this isn’t just about a moral disagreement; it’s about how we treat one another and how we talk about one another.

Oh, so profound. I guess only those who say “hey buddy if it feels good do it” are the ones who treat others kindly? No worries of being persecuted for Jesus’ sake under those pretenses.

If we Christians can’t show more love and willingness to listen…

I’m listening.