Florida gun shop owner to make business "muslim free zone."

[Ringel05]

It doesn't matter, for once (and I can't believe I'm saying this) PaintMyHouse actually got something right and I have to agree with him. Ya can't discriminate based on religion, it's covered under this little known document call the Constitution.......

Absolutely they can descriminate. It's a private business. Gov't can't descriminate but a business owner sure the hell can. Show me where, in the constitution, it tells private business owners who they can cater to.
You need to learn your laws.

Not selling a gun to someone because you think he might be a felon or an illegal alien isn't discrimination - it's the law.

You cannot sell to a known felon, that is the law. It's not about what you think, it's about what you can prove using the available methods of checking backgrounds.

I have refused to sell to several people over the years for various reasons. A guy came in to buy fourteen AR's, I didn't sell to him, another guy came in with a paper license, I didn't sell to him. I also didn't sell a gun to a guy that acted like he was fresh off the funny farm. There are many reasons why I will not sell to certain people and it's mostly just a gut feeling. I have yet to be sued or cited.

You didn't sell because of what you observed, what they had as identification proof and (probably) because you didn't need or want the BATF coming down on you. So far you haven't claimed to have not sold because someone was black, white, yellow, red, orange, green, Baptist, Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim..........

 

[manifold]

and when they're deposed, and the question asked "why did you think that?" what will happen? what will happen when the security footage doesn't show what they claim, or when the other buyers that day didn't see what was claimed. what happens when suddenly every muslim that tries to buy a gun is somehow believed to be a danger to themselves or others for no reason?

"I don't recall specifically, I just remember that's how I felt at the time"


Of course we both know it would never even get that far.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

There is no such thing as a reasonable person who believes it what can't be proven to exist. There's also no such thing as a reasonable person who believes in what cannot be proven not to exist either. Reasonable people deal only with what is known or what is unknown but likely to exist. God does not make the cut.

Whatever you gotta tell yourself I guess.

But I don't believe for a second that you don't know a single person who is religious that is also a generally reasonable person.

Anyone who believes in religion is unreasonable, by definition. And what you believe I couldn't give a damn about.

Now you're back to being the blind idiot I've come to know and..... Well come to know......

If I believe that a giant green dragon lives in my underwear drawer and spies on me at night but I'm sane in all other aspects of life, does that make me a reasonable person? Yes, or no?

 

[ogibillm]

of course it would. how many legit reasons are there for denying someone the sale of a gun?

You only need one.

and again, when that is eliminated?
and you do realize that you're arguing for someone to perjure themselves, right?

An opinion isn't a lie. If my opinion is that you are acting in a way that makes me uncomfortable selling you a gun, good luck in proving my opinion wrong.

Let me also add, that it doesn't matter if you are legally able to purchase a weapon, I am not legally bound to sell you one.

and when a pattern of discrimination can be shown? when you have to say, under oath, what it was that made you uncomfortable?
i don't argue that a person could get away with it, but that's mainly because people are not as willing to go through the trouble of fighting for their rights as they should be.

 

[Ringel05]

Absolutely they can descriminate. It's a private business. Gov't can't descriminate but a business owner sure the hell can. Show me where, in the constitution, it tells private business owners who they can cater to.
You need to learn your laws.

Not selling a gun to someone because you think he might be a felon or an illegal alien isn't discrimination - it's the law.

You cannot sell to a known felon, that is the law. It's not about what you think, it's about what you can prove using the available methods of checking backgrounds.

Incorrect.

It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person— (1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year.... (5) who, being an alien— (A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States
Gun Control Act of 1968 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

If I have cause to believe someone is a felon or illegal alien, it is against the law to sell the gun. Nothing in any law says I must run a background check to confirm or deny that suspicion.

Reasonable cause is not, Hey buddy, you look like a sand ****** to me. Unless you are willing to take it to court, if the background check is clear, sell them the gun.

Your opinion here isn't relevant, only that of the dealer.

"I saw someone that looked like him on the wall at the PO, so I'm not going to take the chance".

More than enough to satisfy the law; nothing in any law says I must run a background check to confirm or deny that suspicion, and nothing in any laws states I must sell the gun even if the background check comes back clean, as I still have "reason to believe" discretion.

This true but that's not what the discussion is about, is it.........

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Your approval of dishonesty and bigotry is noted.

As is your concession.

My accurate observation. You approve of discrimination against Muslims.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Translation:
You cannot answer my questions.
How is not selling a gun to someone I believe cannot legally own a gun a form of discrimination?
How does refusing to do so violate public accommodation laws when the federal requires me to not sell the gun?
Well?

Discrimination means, in this case,selling to one but not another.

How is not selling a gun to someone I believe cannot legally own a gun a form of discrimination?

I just told you. Look up what the word means. In this case it can be, but not necessarily is, legal discrimination.

You aren't soundly addressing my questions - clearly you understand that you haven't a leg to stand on here, and you have no hope of showing my position to be unsound.

Fact is that I am required by law to not sell a gun to anyone I believe cannot legally own a gun.

Fact is that if you want to claim that I did not sell you the gun not because I believed you were unable to legally own a gun but rather because I wanted to discriminate against you because of your status as a protected class, the onus is completely and fully on you to prove that I did so.discriminate -- including the burden to prove that I indeed had no reason to believe that you were unable to legally own a gun.

Fact is you know you have no chance of that happening because you cannot prove that I did NOT see whatever I said I saw to make me believe you were unable to legally own a gun.

Eat it and smile.
I eagerly await your response that will only serve to prove you know all of what I just said is true.

Post what you law you believe you are subject to again, and we'll discuss it.

Already did that, Jack.
Thanks for proving that you understand that everything I said is true -- just like I said you would - and that you similarly understand you have no hope of proving my position unsound.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Lack of evidence isn't evidence.

Get a good attorney. If the last reason left is he's a sand ******, you're fucked.

Sure a lot of Gun Control fans out there now.

Don't need one. Like I said, I've refused to sell guns to a number of people and I have not been sued.

Just a matter of time it seems.

20 years and counting.

Which changes nothing at all. Thanks anyway.

Which simply proves you are an idiot that talks about things he knows nothing of.

A gun dealer in Arizona refused to sell Mark Kelly, Gabby Giffords' husband a weapon.

Several guns dealers in several states have explicitly stated they will not sell a firearm to Obama supporters.

Show where any of those were sued.

 

[manifold]

If I believe that a giant green dragon lives in my underwear drawer and spies on me at night but I'm sane in all other aspects of life, does that make me a reasonable person? Yes, or no?

I already answered that.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

and when they're deposed, and the question asked "why did you think that?" what will happen? what will happen when the security footage doesn't show what they claim, or when the other buyers that day didn't see what was claimed. what happens when suddenly every muslim that tries to buy a gun is somehow believed to be a danger to themselves or others for no reason?

"I don't recall specifically, I just remember that's how I felt at the time"

Good luck with that one...

 

[Ringel05]

There is no such thing as a reasonable person who believes it what can't be proven to exist. There's also no such thing as a reasonable person who believes in what cannot be proven not to exist either. Reasonable people deal only with what is known or what is unknown but likely to exist. God does not make the cut.

Whatever you gotta tell yourself I guess.

But I don't believe for a second that you don't know a single person who is religious that is also a generally reasonable person.

Anyone who believes in religion is unreasonable, by definition. And what you believe I couldn't give a damn about.

Now you're back to being the blind idiot I've come to know and..... Well come to know......

If I believe that a giant green dragon lives in my underwear drawer and spies on me at night but I'm sane in all other aspects of life, does that make me a reasonable person? Yes, or no?

Not necessarily yes or no.... That's your problem, you over generalize and over simplify like every hack on this board.

 

[ogibillm]

and when they're deposed, and the question asked "why did you think that?" what will happen? what will happen when the security footage doesn't show what they claim, or when the other buyers that day didn't see what was claimed. what happens when suddenly every muslim that tries to buy a gun is somehow believed to be a danger to themselves or others for no reason?

"I don't recall specifically, I just remember that's how I felt at the time"


Of course we both know it would never even get that far.

you don't think the first thing that would happen is a sworn deposition? what about when the pattern can be shown? and if there's security footage? if the person made you feel that uncomfortable, why weren't they reported?

the story wouldn't hold up.

 

[manifold]

My accurate observation. You approve of discrimination against Muslims.

Yes, I do.

As do you, since you approve of discrimination against all who are religious.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Translation:
You cannot answer my questions.
How is not selling a gun to someone I believe cannot legally own a gun a form of discrimination?
How does refusing to do so violate public accommodation laws when the federal requires me to not sell the gun?
Well?

Discrimination means, in this case,selling to one but not another.

How is not selling a gun to someone I believe cannot legally own a gun a form of discrimination?

I just told you. Look up what the word means. In this case it can be, but not necessarily is, legal discrimination.

You aren't soundly addressing my questions - clearly you understand that you haven't a leg to stand on here, and you have no hope of showing my position to be unsound.

Fact is that I am required by law to not sell a gun to anyone I believe cannot legally own a gun.

Fact is that if you want to claim that I did not sell you the gun not because I believed you were unable to legally own a gun but rather because I wanted to discriminate against you because of your status as a protected class, the onus is completely and fully on you to prove that I did so.discriminate -- including the burden to prove that I indeed had no reason to believe that you were unable to legally own a gun.

Fact is you know you have no chance of that happening because you cannot prove that I did NOT see whatever I said I saw to make me believe you were unable to legally own a gun.

Eat it and smile.
I eagerly await your response that will only serve to prove you know all of what I just said is true.

this is dumb, and you know it. yes, the individual would have a rough time proving their case, although when deposed as to why you thought the person could not legally buy the seller would either have to perjure themselves or admit their deed. they would also surely be required to support the reason they made up - something that isn't easy to do.

Perhaps, perhaps not -- I am not under any obligation to prove myself correct or help my accuser prove his case.

next, if that was the policy, the accuser would be able to show a pattern....

That would, of course depend on how many Muslims cam into my store and were denied a sale based on my discretion -- need three or more to establish a pattern -- and how many of them could prove they were so denied.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Get a good attorney. If the last reason left is he's a sand ******, you're fucked.

Sure a lot of Gun Control fans out there now.

Don't need one. Like I said, I've refused to sell guns to a number of people and I have not been sued.

Just a matter of time it seems.

20 years and counting.

Which changes nothing at all. Thanks anyway.

Which simply proves you are an idiot that talks about things he knows nothing of.

A gun dealer in Arizona refused to sell Mark Kelly, Gabby Giffords' husband a weapon.

Several guns dealers in several states have explicitly stated they will not sell a firearm to Obama supporters.

Show where any of those were sued.

I don't need to. In the case of Muslims the DOJ handles that part. If other people decided not to sue, for other reasons. that doesn't mean the law wasn't broken.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

My accurate observation. You approve of discrimination against Muslims.

Yes, I do.

As do you, since you approve of discrimination against all who are religious.

Calling humanity a disease, and hoping for their timely extinction, is not an approval of discrimination. I am however intolerant of the intolerant.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

of course it would. how many legit reasons are there for denying someone the sale of a gun?

You only need one.

and again, when that is eliminated?
and you do realize that you're arguing for someone to perjure themselves, right?

An opinion isn't a lie. If my opinion is that you are acting in a way that makes me uncomfortable selling you a gun, good luck in proving my opinion wrong.

Let me also add, that it doesn't matter if you are legally able to purchase a weapon, I am not legally bound to sell you one.

and when a pattern of discrimination can be shown? when you have to say, under oath, what it was that made you uncomfortable?
i don't argue that a person could get away with it, but that's mainly because people are not as willing to go through the trouble of fighting for their rights as they should be.

You have to prove that the pattern is targeting a "protected class", I simply have a pattern of not selling to people who show a certain attitude that makes me think they could be a danger to themselves or others. I will not sell a gun to anyone that I don't feel comfortable with and the law cannot force me to. As a matter of fact, the law is on my side in cases like that. All I legally need is sufficient likelihood or suspicion.

Gun Dealer Code of Conduct Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

 

[manifold]

I am however intolerant of the intolerant.

Good luck with all that self loathing I suppose.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Don't need one. Like I said, I've refused to sell guns to a number of people and I have not been sued.

Just a matter of time it seems.

20 years and counting.

Which changes nothing at all. Thanks anyway.

Which simply proves you are an idiot that talks about things he knows nothing of.

A gun dealer in Arizona refused to sell Mark Kelly, Gabby Giffords' husband a weapon.

Several guns dealers in several states have explicitly stated they will not sell a firearm to Obama supporters.

Show where any of those were sued.

I don't need to. In the case of Muslims the DOJ handles that part. If other people decided not to sue, for other reasons. that doesn't mean the law wasn't broken.

That's what I thought, when challenged you cower.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

There is no such thing as a reasonable person who believes it what can't be proven to exist. There's also no such thing as a reasonable person who believes in what cannot be proven not to exist either. Reasonable people deal only with what is known or what is unknown but likely to exist. God does not make the cut.

Whatever you gotta tell yourself I guess.

But I don't believe for a second that you don't know a single person who is religious that is also a generally reasonable person.

Anyone who believes in religion is unreasonable, by definition. And what you believe I couldn't give a damn about.

Now you're back to being the blind idiot I've come to know and..... Well come to know......

If I believe that a giant green dragon lives in my underwear drawer and spies on me at night but I'm sane in all other aspects of life, does that make me a reasonable person? Yes, or no?

Not necessarily yes or no.... That's your problem, you over generalize and over simplify like every hack on this board.

See what I mean. One taco short of a combo plate makes one unreasonable, as are all religious believers.

I very much doubt you would have any trouble calling a strict Muslim unreasonable based upon what the faith teaches eh?