montelatici
Gold Member
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Finally, Israel and Palestine is a US election issue.
- Thread starter fanger
- Start date
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
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But in the Middle East, the Ottoman Territorial Administrations was broken down slightly difference into Sanjuks (Districts) and Vilayets (Provinces). But NOT States or self governing regions...
Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan, and Palestine were all considered to be successor states.
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
Article 30 Applies to the singular issue of "Nationality;" not sovereignty and not independence.
Read Part I, Section II - Nationality:
Article 30 applies to "State to which such territory is transferred;" NOT partitions created by the Allied Powers. Just what state(s) were the Zones of Interest "A" and "B" transferred to? None... They were districts and provinces that were not associated to any particular "state of kingdom;" either before or after the treaty was enacted.
If there was a specific relevance to Mandates in 1923/1924 to which the Treaty applied, it would have stated so in the text.
The territories were not like the other that reverted back to self-determinant governments. The entire purpose of Section II - Nationality was to avoid the creation of "Stateless People."
Most Respectfully,
R
Article 30 Applies to the singular issue of "Nationality;" not sovereignty and not independence.
(COMMENT)
Read Part I, Section II - Nationality:
Article 30 applies to "State to which such territory is transferred;" NOT partitions created by the Allied Powers. Just what state(s) were the Zones of Interest "A" and "B" transferred to? None... They were districts and provinces that were not associated to any particular "state of kingdom;" either before or after the treaty was enacted.
If there was a specific relevance to Mandates in 1923/1924 to which the Treaty applied, it would have stated so in the text.
The territories were not like the other that reverted back to self-determinant governments. The entire purpose of Section II - Nationality was to avoid the creation of "Stateless People."
Most Respectfully,
R
montelatici
Gold Member
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Where does say that?
"NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.
Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred."
As a comparison, in the Syrian Mandate, there was no state of Syria or of the Lebanon, yet the Syrian Mandate stated that there were nationals of Syria and the Lebanon.
"ARTICLE 3 The Mandatory shall be entrusted with the exclusive control of the foreign relations of Syria and the Lebanon and with the right to issue exequaturs to the consuls appointed by foreign Powers. Nationals of Syria and the Lebanon living outside the limits of the territory shall be under the diplomatic and consular protection of the Mandatory."
http://www.ndu.edu.lb/Lerc/resources/French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon.pdf
"NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.
Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred."
As a comparison, in the Syrian Mandate, there was no state of Syria or of the Lebanon, yet the Syrian Mandate stated that there were nationals of Syria and the Lebanon.
"ARTICLE 3 The Mandatory shall be entrusted with the exclusive control of the foreign relations of Syria and the Lebanon and with the right to issue exequaturs to the consuls appointed by foreign Powers. Nationals of Syria and the Lebanon living outside the limits of the territory shall be under the diplomatic and consular protection of the Mandatory."
http://www.ndu.edu.lb/Lerc/resources/French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon.pdf
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
This is not correct. You're making the mistake by trying to associate the names.
The current State of Lebanon was a composite of the southern part of the Tripoli Sanjuk, the Sanjuk of Lebanon, and the northern portion of the Acre Sanjuk.
The State of Syria was a composite of the Sanjuk of Latakia, most of the Vilayet of Aleppo, the Sanjuk of Hama, and the Sanjuk of Damascus, the State of Transjordan was a composite of the Sanjuks Maan and Hauran. Transjordan was actually set up after the Unconditional Mudor Armistice of 1918; with Hashemite Emir Faisal set up an independent government in Damascus. Although for political reasons tied directly to the Syke-Picot Agreement, the ZoI of Damascus revered back to French control.
None of the pre-surrender districts and provinces that you mentioned were successor governments. They were political subdivisions under the responsible "Divan" (a council that advised the Sultan). At time in the history of the Ottoman Empire, the region had Eyalets ( Beylerbeys ), the next order of government above a Vilayet.
I think you are grasping at straws.
And again I remind you that, the title and rights were renounced to the Allied Powers and the Mandatories selected by the Allied Powers. All rights and titles by treaty = all rights and titles by treaty. There is nothing greater than that in terms of independence and sovereignty.
While I agree in part with some of what our friend "montelatici" has cited, the Article 3 which he sites is a (French) Mandate Article, derivative of the substance behind the treaty.
Most Respectfully,
R
This is not correct. You're making the mistake by trying to associate the names.
(COMMENT)
The current State of Lebanon was a composite of the southern part of the Tripoli Sanjuk, the Sanjuk of Lebanon, and the northern portion of the Acre Sanjuk.
The State of Syria was a composite of the Sanjuk of Latakia, most of the Vilayet of Aleppo, the Sanjuk of Hama, and the Sanjuk of Damascus, the State of Transjordan was a composite of the Sanjuks Maan and Hauran. Transjordan was actually set up after the Unconditional Mudor Armistice of 1918; with Hashemite Emir Faisal set up an independent government in Damascus. Although for political reasons tied directly to the Syke-Picot Agreement, the ZoI of Damascus revered back to French control.
None of the pre-surrender districts and provinces that you mentioned were successor governments. They were political subdivisions under the responsible "Divan" (a council that advised the Sultan). At time in the history of the Ottoman Empire, the region had Eyalets ( Beylerbeys ), the next order of government above a Vilayet.
I think you are grasping at straws.
And again I remind you that, the title and rights were renounced to the Allied Powers and the Mandatories selected by the Allied Powers. All rights and titles by treaty = all rights and titles by treaty. There is nothing greater than that in terms of independence and sovereignty.
While I agree in part with some of what our friend "montelatici" has cited, the Article 3 which he sites is a (French) Mandate Article, derivative of the substance behind the treaty.
Most Respectfully,
R
Last edited:
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
- Dec 6, 2009
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None of the pre-surrender districts and provinces that you mentioned were successor governments.
That is true though I think you say that to mislead. Post war treaties divided the region. Territories were named and defined by international borders. Upon the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne, these defined territories became successor states.
-------------------------
Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:
“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”
----------------------The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:
“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”
------------------
Palestine was the state to which such territory was transferred and the Palestinians were the citizens of that state as stated in the Treaty of Lausanne and confirmed by local law.
WRONG Just read the reply to monte'e oft linked letter to the British government in 1922. It states that Palestine was not a successor state but a mandate.
So what state were they transferred to, and when did it come into existence ?
Syria and Lebanon where already "states" in their own right under the Ottomans so they became fully fledged states under the mandate system
Try again as what state were they transferred to to become citizens of
The actual wording is citizens of the mandate of Palestine
theliq
Platinum Member
- Banned
- #150
Such Myopic Errant Nonsense from you Rocco9/11 inside job, montelatici, et al,
Oh, more whining.
(COMMENT)
And I suppose that the Arab Palestinian is clean as the driven snow; 99 and 44 one-hundredths percent pure. And the Arab Palestinians never attacked the Olympics, and the Palestinians never killed a single American, and the Palestinians never hijacked a single plane or committed piracy on the high seas. I suppose that the Palestinians never committed a suicide bombing in against a purely civilian target, never attacked a school bus or the infirm or disabled. And I suppose that the Arab Palestinian did not fire a single rocket indiscriminately into Israel.
I suppose that all these civilians were located away from Arab Palestinian paramilitary activities. I suppose that there were not paramilitary targets in close proximity to densely populated civilian vicinities.
The lack of military prowess and the ineffectiveness of paramilitary activities and terrorist operations is no excuse. The Arab Palestinian Terrorist have said many times that they would kill more Israeli civilians if they could. It has only been within the last week that we discussed how the barbaric and bloodthirsty Arab Palestinians want to legitimize the Arabs in killing civilians.
If the international community places a moratorium on the prohibition against directly targeting the civilian population (as suggested), that would make your whole argument here invalid and immaterial. That would place the Arab Palestinian Population in great peril; not that the Israelis would intentionally target innocent civilians.
Most Respectfully,
R
theliq
Platinum Member
- Banned
- #153
Cretin is as CRETIN speaks9/11 inside job, montelatici, et al,
Oh, more whining.
(COMMENT)
And I suppose that the Arab Palestinian is clean as the driven snow; 99 and 44 one-hundredths percent pure. And the Arab Palestinians never attacked the Olympics, and the Palestinians never killed a single American, and the Palestinians never hijacked a single plane or committed piracy on the high seas. I suppose that the Palestinians never committed a suicide bombing in against a purely civilian target, never attacked a school bus or the infirm or disabled. And I suppose that the Arab Palestinian did not fire a single rocket indiscriminately into Israel.
I suppose that all these civilians were located away from Arab Palestinian paramilitary activities. I suppose that there were not paramilitary targets in close proximity to densely populated civilian vicinities.
The lack of military prowess and the ineffectiveness of paramilitary activities and terrorist operations is no excuse. The Arab Palestinian Terrorist have said many times that they would kill more Israeli civilians if they could. It has only been within the last week that we discussed how the barbaric and bloodthirsty Arab Palestinians want to legitimize the Arabs in killing civilians.
If the international community places a moratorium on the prohibition against directly targeting the civilian population (as suggested), that would make your whole argument here invalid and immaterial. That would place the Arab Palestinian Population in great peril; not that the Israelis would intentionally target innocent civilians.
Most Respectfully,
R
Of course the Palestinians are not "as clean as the driven snow" but they are the ones that were driven from their homes and relegated to refugee camps. It is not unnatural for people that have undergone the horrors they have undergone to lash out. The Palestinians, after all, are not behaving any differently than the non-whites in South Africa and Rhodesia, the FLN in Algeria, the Tamils, the IRA, etc., etc. What bothers me are people such as yourself that will not ever admit that the migration of European Jews to Palestine and their success (with the help of the West in general) in evicting the native people and creating a state at the expense of the native people has no bearing on the behavior of the non-Jews (Muslims and Christians) of Palestine.
"...but they are the ones that were driven from their homes and relegated to refugee camps."
I mean, what a shame that the Arabs-Moslem squatters were forced from their homes in 1948 when the failed genocide by the Arab-Moslem armies was begun.
And, I think we can agree that the treatment of the Pal'istanians by the Arab-Moslem world is terrible. Those Pal'istanian internment camps in Jordan and elsewhere in the Arab-Moslem Middle East..., oh, the humanity, (sniff sniff).
montelatici
Gold Member
- Feb 5, 2014
- 18,686
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Everything is fine here, how are things down under? But you're right, time to disengage from discussions with mollusk intelligence level posters.
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
Let not forget what we were talking about in this exchange; wchich started with your Post #113. We were talking about proving the accuracy of the Palestinian claim:
• Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.
REPORT
BY HIS BRITANNIC MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT
TO THE COUNCIL OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS
ON THE ADMINISTRATION OF
PALESTINE AND TRANSJORDAN
FOR THE YEAR
1925
SECTION III.
QUESTIONNAIRE OF PERMANENT MANDATES COMMISSION,
WITH BRIEF REPLIES.
I.--JEWISH NATIONAL HOME.
1.Q. What measures have been taken to place the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the national home of the Jewish people? What are the effects of these measures?
A. The direction and objects of the policy of the Government of Palestine in law, administration and finance are unchanged. The visible results of the policy have been tranquillity, increased Jewish immigration, progress of Jewish agricultural settlement. The expansion of industry has been encouraged by the grant of exemption of certain raw materials from import duty (see [pages ] of this Report).
The regulations under the Immigration Ordinance, 1925, set up a statutory procedure for the introduction of Jewish immigrant labour into Palestine. The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council, 1925, facilitates the acquisition of Palestinian nationality by persons settling in the country, including those who opted for Palestinian citizenship under the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. There was a remarkable development of Jewish Co-operative Societies, constituted principally for building, agricultural and mutual credit purposes. Twenty-six Jewish companies were formed.
2.Q. Have special provisions been enacted, framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews?
A. Article 5 of the Order facilitates the acquisition of citizenship by Jews who opted therefor under Article 2 of the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. The qualifications for naturalization are simple: two years' residence in Palestine out of the three years preceding application, good character, and the declared intention to settle in Palestine; knowledge of Hebrew is accepted under the literacy qualification. In special cases the High Commissioner is empowered to grant naturalization even if the period of residence has not been within the three years preceding application. Special naturalization offices have already been opened in Jerusalem, Haifa and Tiberias; and an officer is visiting the Jewish agricultural settlements in the north to receive applications on the spot.
PERMANENT MANDATES COMMISSION
MINUTES
OF THE
NINTH SESSION
Held at Geneva from June 8th to 25th, 1926
including the
REPORT OF THE COMMISSION TO THE COUNCIL
11. Rights of Citizenship. -- In this connection, the Waad Leumi complains that the High Commissioner is empowered to withdraw the privilege of citizenship without trial and without appeal.
The Commission is of opinion that the mandatory Power has demonstrated the necessity of conferring this power upon the High Commissioner and it could only have taken this complaint into consideration if cases had been laid before it in which this power had been abused or exercised in an arbitrary manner.
(COMMENT)
Being a citizen of the territory to which the Mandate Applies (as in Article 1 of the Palestine Order in Council), is not the same as:
• Being a citizen of an independent and sovereign.
• Being a citizen of a self-governing institution.
The demarcation of Palestine (as may be determined by the Allied Powers) may be changed or altered at the discretion of the allied powers.
Again, citizenship has no impact on the matter of independence or sovereignty.
Neither Article 30, or the Citizenship Law alters the fact that, by treaty, the title and rights to the territory of the Allied Powers; and remained so until altered by the Allied Powers, or the Mandate Commission.
Most Respectfully,
R
Let not forget what we were talking about in this exchange; wchich started with your Post #113. We were talking about proving the accuracy of the Palestinian claim:
• Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.
(REFERENCE)
REPORT
BY HIS BRITANNIC MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT
TO THE COUNCIL OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS
ON THE ADMINISTRATION OF
PALESTINE AND TRANSJORDAN
FOR THE YEAR
1925
SECTION III.
QUESTIONNAIRE OF PERMANENT MANDATES COMMISSION,
WITH BRIEF REPLIES.
I.--JEWISH NATIONAL HOME.
1.Q. What measures have been taken to place the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the national home of the Jewish people? What are the effects of these measures?
A. The direction and objects of the policy of the Government of Palestine in law, administration and finance are unchanged. The visible results of the policy have been tranquillity, increased Jewish immigration, progress of Jewish agricultural settlement. The expansion of industry has been encouraged by the grant of exemption of certain raw materials from import duty (see [pages ] of this Report).
The regulations under the Immigration Ordinance, 1925, set up a statutory procedure for the introduction of Jewish immigrant labour into Palestine. The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council, 1925, facilitates the acquisition of Palestinian nationality by persons settling in the country, including those who opted for Palestinian citizenship under the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. There was a remarkable development of Jewish Co-operative Societies, constituted principally for building, agricultural and mutual credit purposes. Twenty-six Jewish companies were formed.
VI.--NATIONALITY.
2.Q. Have special provisions been enacted, framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews?
A. Article 5 of the Order facilitates the acquisition of citizenship by Jews who opted therefor under Article 2 of the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. The qualifications for naturalization are simple: two years' residence in Palestine out of the three years preceding application, good character, and the declared intention to settle in Palestine; knowledge of Hebrew is accepted under the literacy qualification. In special cases the High Commissioner is empowered to grant naturalization even if the period of residence has not been within the three years preceding application. Special naturalization offices have already been opened in Jerusalem, Haifa and Tiberias; and an officer is visiting the Jewish agricultural settlements in the north to receive applications on the spot.
PERMANENT MANDATES COMMISSION
MINUTES
OF THE
NINTH SESSION
Held at Geneva from June 8th to 25th, 1926
including the
REPORT OF THE COMMISSION TO THE COUNCIL
11. Rights of Citizenship. -- In this connection, the Waad Leumi complains that the High Commissioner is empowered to withdraw the privilege of citizenship without trial and without appeal.
The Commission is of opinion that the mandatory Power has demonstrated the necessity of conferring this power upon the High Commissioner and it could only have taken this complaint into consideration if cases had been laid before it in which this power had been abused or exercised in an arbitrary manner.
Being a citizen of the territory to which the Mandate Applies (as in Article 1 of the Palestine Order in Council), is not the same as:
• Being a citizen of an independent and sovereign.
• Being a citizen of a self-governing institution.
Again, citizenship has no impact on the matter of independence or sovereignty.
Neither Article 30, or the Citizenship Law alters the fact that, by treaty, the title and rights to the territory of the Allied Powers; and remained so until altered by the Allied Powers, or the Mandate Commission.
Most Respectfully,
R
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
- Dec 6, 2009
- 83,276
- 4,681
- 1,815
OK, but the Palestinian's statement is the land of Palestine after the Mandate failed and left. The confirmation of this defined territory can be found in the 1949 UN armistice agreements.
Such Myopic Errant Nonsense from you Rocco9/11 inside job, montelatici, et al,
Oh, more whining.
(COMMENT)
And I suppose that the Arab Palestinian is clean as the driven snow; 99 and 44 one-hundredths percent pure. And the Arab Palestinians never attacked the Olympics, and the Palestinians never killed a single American, and the Palestinians never hijacked a single plane or committed piracy on the high seas. I suppose that the Palestinians never committed a suicide bombing in against a purely civilian target, never attacked a school bus or the infirm or disabled. And I suppose that the Arab Palestinian did not fire a single rocket indiscriminately into Israel.
I suppose that all these civilians were located away from Arab Palestinian paramilitary activities. I suppose that there were not paramilitary targets in close proximity to densely populated civilian vicinities.
The lack of military prowess and the ineffectiveness of paramilitary activities and terrorist operations is no excuse. The Arab Palestinian Terrorist have said many times that they would kill more Israeli civilians if they could. It has only been within the last week that we discussed how the barbaric and bloodthirsty Arab Palestinians want to legitimize the Arabs in killing civilians.
If the international community places a moratorium on the prohibition against directly targeting the civilian population (as suggested), that would make your whole argument here invalid and immaterial. That would place the Arab Palestinian Population in great peril; not that the Israelis would intentionally target innocent civilians.
Most Respectfully,
R
More deflection and no content posting. Cant you keep on topic and at least mention the subject matter.
So are the candidates for the US president making the Palestine/Israel problem an election issue ?
The MANDATE never left it was the MANDATORY that handed over the reigns to the UN.
What is so hard for you to understand about that. You act like some semi literate migrant when you confuse the two entities all the time.
No it cant as that delimeates the MANDATE OF PALESTINE not the nation of Palestine. As proven to you thousands of times
Cretin is as CRETIN speaks9/11 inside job, montelatici, et al,
Oh, more whining.
(COMMENT)
And I suppose that the Arab Palestinian is clean as the driven snow; 99 and 44 one-hundredths percent pure. And the Arab Palestinians never attacked the Olympics, and the Palestinians never killed a single American, and the Palestinians never hijacked a single plane or committed piracy on the high seas. I suppose that the Palestinians never committed a suicide bombing in against a purely civilian target, never attacked a school bus or the infirm or disabled. And I suppose that the Arab Palestinian did not fire a single rocket indiscriminately into Israel.
I suppose that all these civilians were located away from Arab Palestinian paramilitary activities. I suppose that there were not paramilitary targets in close proximity to densely populated civilian vicinities.
The lack of military prowess and the ineffectiveness of paramilitary activities and terrorist operations is no excuse. The Arab Palestinian Terrorist have said many times that they would kill more Israeli civilians if they could. It has only been within the last week that we discussed how the barbaric and bloodthirsty Arab Palestinians want to legitimize the Arabs in killing civilians.
If the international community places a moratorium on the prohibition against directly targeting the civilian population (as suggested), that would make your whole argument here invalid and immaterial. That would place the Arab Palestinian Population in great peril; not that the Israelis would intentionally target innocent civilians.
Most Respectfully,
R
Of course the Palestinians are not "as clean as the driven snow" but they are the ones that were driven from their homes and relegated to refugee camps. It is not unnatural for people that have undergone the horrors they have undergone to lash out. The Palestinians, after all, are not behaving any differently than the non-whites in South Africa and Rhodesia, the FLN in Algeria, the Tamils, the IRA, etc., etc. What bothers me are people such as yourself that will not ever admit that the migration of European Jews to Palestine and their success (with the help of the West in general) in evicting the native people and creating a state at the expense of the native people has no bearing on the behavior of the non-Jews (Muslims and Christians) of Palestine.
"...but they are the ones that were driven from their homes and relegated to refugee camps."
I mean, what a shame that the Arabs-Moslem squatters were forced from their homes in 1948 when the failed genocide by the Arab-Moslem armies was begun.
And, I think we can agree that the treatment of the Pal'istanians by the Arab-Moslem world is terrible. Those Pal'istanian internment camps in Jordan and elsewhere in the Arab-Moslem Middle East..., oh, the humanity, (sniff sniff).
And only a full blown cretin would write citizen as you did
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