Eviscerating 'The Roosevelt Alibi'

[Unkotare]

Stupid assumptions are NOT scholarship, you ignorant buffoon.

I've TAUGHT history for decades, chump. I've studied hundreds of texts and primary documents in several languages. How about you, fool?

I used to be a French model

Your inferiority complex seems well-deserved.

You HAVE NOT TAUGHT history for decades, and studied hundreds of texts and primary documents in several languages....

Yes I have, and tomorrow I'll continue. You, on the other hand, will just whine, deflect, and play the apologist for the worst scumbag ever to soil the White House.

It's far more likely that RW used to be a French model.

You're good at being wrong, fool.

 

[Unkotare]

Can you provide a link to any of the hundreds of texts and primary documents.....

They are not websites, they are physical items, idiot.

 

[toxicmedia]

Can you provide a link to any of the hundreds of texts and primary documents.....

They are not websites, they are physical items, idiot.

Really, so were these hundreds of texts, and primary documents in a physical location?

Or did you complete a years long international search, for information about pre and post war US-Russian relations, in a number of languages. What? Russia, Germany, England, and here in the US?

Oh! I get it...you're a college professor, and you travel the world pouring through catacombs uncovering dusty artifacts amidst much intrigue

 

[Unkotare]

Can you provide a link to any of the hundreds of texts and primary documents.....

They are not websites, they are physical items, idiot.

Really, so were these hundreds of texts, and primary documents in a physical location?

Yes, they are called schools, you idiot.

 

[Correll]

RW was giving FDR credit for getting Stalin to fight the Nazi.

How believable it that?

Credit for not engaging US troops when we were not ready. Stalin demanded a second front at every meeting, FDR waited two years while Russians were being killed by the millions.
And you and PC whine about how Stalin got the best of him

No, you repeatedly mentioned that he got Stalin to fight the Nazi as a return on the aid being given to him.

FDR got Stalin to do the fighting and dying
For two years, all we brought to the party was North Africa and lend lease

No. Hitler got Stalin to the fighting and dying. He did this clever stunt by invading the Soviet Union with the stated intent of conquest and genocide.

FDR deserves no credit for that.

I'm pretty sure you missed his point, at least if I haven't also, but delaying our participation in the European theatre, caused expenditures by the German Wermacht that could have been spent on American troops.

That seems so simple to me, I must be missing some other aspect of your assertion

He has repeatedly stated, in the context of what did we receive in return for Lend Lease and our leverage, that FDR got Stalin to fight the Nazi.

FDR had nothing to do with getting the Russians to fight the Nazis.

They were fighting before the US was in the war.

THey were going to be fighting regardless of what the US did.


FDR deserves no credit for that.

 

[Correll]

No, you repeatedly mentioned that he got Stalin to fight the Nazi as a return on the aid being given to him.

FDR got Stalin to do the fighting and dying
For two years, all we brought to the party was North Africa and lend lease

No. Hitler got Stalin to the fighting and dying. He did this clever stunt by invading the Soviet Union with the stated intent of conquest and genocide.

FDR deserves no credit for that.

FDR could have invaded two years earlier like Stalin wanted

Would have killed hundreds of thousands additional Americans. But it would have saved Soviet lives

Not invading two years earlier, based on Stalin's demands, and over US generals advice was obviously the right call.

It was also not a difficult call.

Such an act rates about a C grade.

I thought you righties embraced the concept that "the buck stops here"

But now of course, when a Democratic President presides over the killing of Bin Laden, or staying out of the European theatre during the big one, makes a Democrat look good...not so much buck stopping anywhere near the presidents.

Admit it, you're unwilling to give a Democrat credit for anything good, and you're perfectly willing to blame any Democrat for everything bad.

I am giving him credit for that.

But as even RW said, it was an easy call to make.

A "C" is a passing grade.

If he could have gotten real concession(s) from Stalin for opening the Second Front, I might have given him a "B" or even an "A".

 

[rightwinger]

I don't smoke weed, or pole. And in case you forgot, I didn't vote for Obama.

I learned about Russian-American relations during and after WWI from multiple sources, and you're just parroting revisionism from one hopelessly biased source.

Oh yeah, make that two sources, your angry relatives, and the only camp you've been to was sixth grade summer camp.

Wait, three sources, a biased hit piece book, angry relatives, and the GOP

Stupid assumptions are NOT scholarship, you ignorant buffoon.

I've TAUGHT history for decades, chump. I've studied hundreds of texts and primary documents in several languages. How about you, fool?

I used to be a French model

Your inferiority complex seems well-deserved.

Did I tell you how I used to be a porn star?...

Sounds like something a low-life like you would want to do.

My public demands it

 

[rightwinger]

[QUOTE

Credit for not engaging US troops when we were not ready. Stalin demanded a second front at every meeting, FDR waited two years while Russians were being killed by the millions.
And you and PC whine about how Stalin got the best of him

No, you repeatedly mentioned that he got Stalin to fight the Nazi as a return on the aid being given to him.

FDR got Stalin to do the fighting and dying
For two years, all we brought to the party was North Africa and lend lease

No. Hitler got Stalin to the fighting and dying. He did this clever stunt by invading the Soviet Union with the stated intent of conquest and genocide.

FDR deserves no credit for that.

FDR could have invaded two years earlier like Stalin wanted

Would have killed hundreds of thousands additional Americans. But it would have saved Soviet lives

Can anyone imagine the field day the Anti-FDRs would have had if we had invaded before we were ready. No landing craft, no air cover of consequence, no nothing, nothing but a waste of American lives. Could we have even stayed on the beach? Maybe that's why they are so upset, the landing was successful.

or....FDR stood by and did nothing as the Nazis took over Europe

Frau Braun (PC) would be very happy

 

[rightwinger]

FDR got Stalin to do the fighting and dying
For two years, all we brought to the party was North Africa and lend lease

No. Hitler got Stalin to the fighting and dying. He did this clever stunt by invading the Soviet Union with the stated intent of conquest and genocide.

FDR deserves no credit for that.

FDR could have invaded two years earlier like Stalin wanted

Would have killed hundreds of thousands additional Americans. But it would have saved Soviet lives

Not invading two years earlier, based on Stalin's demands, and over US generals advice was obviously the right call.

It was also not a difficult call.

Such an act rates about a C grade.

I thought you righties embraced the concept that "the buck stops here"

But now of course, when a Democratic President presides over the killing of Bin Laden, or staying out of the European theatre during the big one, makes a Democrat look good...not so much buck stopping anywhere near the presidents.

Admit it, you're unwilling to give a Democrat credit for anything good, and you're perfectly willing to blame any Democrat for everything bad.

I am giving him credit for that.

But as even RW said, it was an easy call to make.

A "C" is a passing grade.

If he could have gotten real concession(s) from Stalin for opening the Second Front, I might have given him a "B" or even an "A".

What concessions would you have liked to see?

 

[Correll]

[QUOTE

No, you repeatedly mentioned that he got Stalin to fight the Nazi as a return on the aid being given to him.

FDR got Stalin to do the fighting and dying
For two years, all we brought to the party was North Africa and lend lease

No. Hitler got Stalin to the fighting and dying. He did this clever stunt by invading the Soviet Union with the stated intent of conquest and genocide.

FDR deserves no credit for that.

FDR could have invaded two years earlier like Stalin wanted

Would have killed hundreds of thousands additional Americans. But it would have saved Soviet lives

Can anyone imagine the field day the Anti-FDRs would have had if we had invaded before we were ready. No landing craft, no air cover of consequence, no nothing, nothing but a waste of American lives. Could we have even stayed on the beach? Maybe that's why they are so upset, the landing was successful.

or....FDR stood by and did nothing as the Nazis took over Europe

Frau Braun (PC) would be very happy

You keep pretending that any choice(s) that FDR made were either or choices.

 

[Correll]

[QUOTE

No, you repeatedly mentioned that he got Stalin to fight the Nazi as a return on the aid being given to him.

FDR got Stalin to do the fighting and dying
For two years, all we brought to the party was North Africa and lend lease

No. Hitler got Stalin to the fighting and dying. He did this clever stunt by invading the Soviet Union with the stated intent of conquest and genocide.

FDR deserves no credit for that.

FDR could have invaded two years earlier like Stalin wanted

Would have killed hundreds of thousands additional Americans. But it would have saved Soviet lives

Can anyone imagine the field day the Anti-FDRs would have had if we had invaded before we were ready. No landing craft, no air cover of consequence, no nothing, nothing but a waste of American lives. Could we have even stayed on the beach? Maybe that's why they are so upset, the landing was successful.

or....FDR stood by and did nothing as the Nazis took over Europe

Frau Braun (PC) would be very happy

You keep pretending that any choice(s) that FDR made were either or choices.

 

[Correll]

No. Hitler got Stalin to the fighting and dying. He did this clever stunt by invading the Soviet Union with the stated intent of conquest and genocide.

FDR deserves no credit for that.

FDR could have invaded two years earlier like Stalin wanted

Would have killed hundreds of thousands additional Americans. But it would have saved Soviet lives

Not invading two years earlier, based on Stalin's demands, and over US generals advice was obviously the right call.

It was also not a difficult call.

Such an act rates about a C grade.

I thought you righties embraced the concept that "the buck stops here"

But now of course, when a Democratic President presides over the killing of Bin Laden, or staying out of the European theatre during the big one, makes a Democrat look good...not so much buck stopping anywhere near the presidents.

Admit it, you're unwilling to give a Democrat credit for anything good, and you're perfectly willing to blame any Democrat for everything bad.

I am giving him credit for that.

But as even RW said, it was an easy call to make.

A "C" is a passing grade.

If he could have gotten real concession(s) from Stalin for opening the Second Front, I might have given him a "B" or even an "A".

What concessions would you have liked to see?

Not sure. How about moving the Soviet control zones back a couple of hundred miles?

Or maybe negotiating with the German High Command for a conditional surrender, so as to deny the Soviets an empire that reaches all the way into the middle of Germany?

SOMETHING!

 

[rightwinger]

FDR could have invaded two years earlier like Stalin wanted

Would have killed hundreds of thousands additional Americans. But it would have saved Soviet lives

Not invading two years earlier, based on Stalin's demands, and over US generals advice was obviously the right call.

It was also not a difficult call.

Such an act rates about a C grade.

I thought you righties embraced the concept that "the buck stops here"

But now of course, when a Democratic President presides over the killing of Bin Laden, or staying out of the European theatre during the big one, makes a Democrat look good...not so much buck stopping anywhere near the presidents.

Admit it, you're unwilling to give a Democrat credit for anything good, and you're perfectly willing to blame any Democrat for everything bad.

I am giving him credit for that.

But as even RW said, it was an easy call to make.

A "C" is a passing grade.

If he could have gotten real concession(s) from Stalin for opening the Second Front, I might have given him a "B" or even an "A".

What concessions would you have liked to see?

Not sure. How about moving the Soviet control zones back a couple of hundred miles?

Or maybe negotiating with the German High Command for a conditional surrender, so as to deny the Soviets an empire that reaches all the way into the middle of Germany?

SOMETHING!

How do you move Soviet zones back when they are occupying them?

The German High Command consisted of Adolph Hitler. Anyone who thought otherwise found themselves dead

 

[regent]

FDR could have invaded two years earlier like Stalin wanted

Would have killed hundreds of thousands additional Americans. But it would have saved Soviet lives

Not invading two years earlier, based on Stalin's demands, and over US generals advice was obviously the right call.

It was also not a difficult call.

Such an act rates about a C grade.

I thought you righties embraced the concept that "the buck stops here"

But now of course, when a Democratic President presides over the killing of Bin Laden, or staying out of the European theatre during the big one, makes a Democrat look good...not so much buck stopping anywhere near the presidents.

Admit it, you're unwilling to give a Democrat credit for anything good, and you're perfectly willing to blame any Democrat for everything bad.

I am giving him credit for that.

But as even RW said, it was an easy call to make.

A "C" is a passing grade.

If he could have gotten real concession(s) from Stalin for opening the Second Front, I might have given him a "B" or even an "A".

What concessions would you have liked to see?

Not sure. How about moving the Soviet control zones back a couple of hundred miles?

Or maybe negotiating with the German High Command for a conditional surrender, so as to deny the Soviets an empire that reaches all the way into the middle of Germany?

SOMETHING!

Yeah, I move my pawn to square seven, now it's your move. As we fight WWII and land on DDay how many of us realize the complexity involved, particularly if you want to save American lives and that was one of the most important priorities, but not on stupid board games. The people that might have a legitimate complaint about DDay and the delay are the Russians, it was a form of the "checks in the mail or I'll hold your coat while you guys fight it out.

 

[Correll]

Not invading two years earlier, based on Stalin's demands, and over US generals advice was obviously the right call.

It was also not a difficult call.

Such an act rates about a C grade.

I thought you righties embraced the concept that "the buck stops here"

But now of course, when a Democratic President presides over the killing of Bin Laden, or staying out of the European theatre during the big one, makes a Democrat look good...not so much buck stopping anywhere near the presidents.

Admit it, you're unwilling to give a Democrat credit for anything good, and you're perfectly willing to blame any Democrat for everything bad.

I am giving him credit for that.

But as even RW said, it was an easy call to make.

A "C" is a passing grade.

If he could have gotten real concession(s) from Stalin for opening the Second Front, I might have given him a "B" or even an "A".

What concessions would you have liked to see?

Not sure. How about moving the Soviet control zones back a couple of hundred miles?

Or maybe negotiating with the German High Command for a conditional surrender, so as to deny the Soviets an empire that reaches all the way into the middle of Germany?

SOMETHING!

How do you move Soviet zones back when they are occupying them?

The German High Command consisted of Adolph Hitler. Anyone who thought otherwise found themselves dead

Plenty of ways. That's what diplomacy is for.

THe German High Command was a lot of people. Some of them were prepared to kill Hitler even in the real history when the Allies were clear they would never negotiate.


20 July plot - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


So it is reasonable to think that if negotiation was on the table, that more would have been open to such a move.

 

[Correll]

Not invading two years earlier, based on Stalin's demands, and over US generals advice was obviously the right call.

It was also not a difficult call.

Such an act rates about a C grade.

I thought you righties embraced the concept that "the buck stops here"

But now of course, when a Democratic President presides over the killing of Bin Laden, or staying out of the European theatre during the big one, makes a Democrat look good...not so much buck stopping anywhere near the presidents.

Admit it, you're unwilling to give a Democrat credit for anything good, and you're perfectly willing to blame any Democrat for everything bad.

I am giving him credit for that.

But as even RW said, it was an easy call to make.

A "C" is a passing grade.

If he could have gotten real concession(s) from Stalin for opening the Second Front, I might have given him a "B" or even an "A".

What concessions would you have liked to see?

Not sure. How about moving the Soviet control zones back a couple of hundred miles?

Or maybe negotiating with the German High Command for a conditional surrender, so as to deny the Soviets an empire that reaches all the way into the middle of Germany?

SOMETHING!

Yeah, I move my pawn to square seven, now it's your move. As we fight WWII and land on DDay how many of us realize the complexity involved, particularly if you want to save American lives and that was one of the most important priorities, but not on stupid board games. The people that might have a legitimate complaint about DDay and the delay are the Russians, it was a form of the "checks in the mail or I'll hold your coat while you guys fight it out.

So you reject the idea that during a war you should give any consideration to the Post War situation?

 

[rightwinger]

I thought you righties embraced the concept that "the buck stops here"

But now of course, when a Democratic President presides over the killing of Bin Laden, or staying out of the European theatre during the big one, makes a Democrat look good...not so much buck stopping anywhere near the presidents.

Admit it, you're unwilling to give a Democrat credit for anything good, and you're perfectly willing to blame any Democrat for everything bad.

I am giving him credit for that.

But as even RW said, it was an easy call to make.

A "C" is a passing grade.

If he could have gotten real concession(s) from Stalin for opening the Second Front, I might have given him a "B" or even an "A".

What concessions would you have liked to see?

Not sure. How about moving the Soviet control zones back a couple of hundred miles?

Or maybe negotiating with the German High Command for a conditional surrender, so as to deny the Soviets an empire that reaches all the way into the middle of Germany?

SOMETHING!

How do you move Soviet zones back when they are occupying them?

The German High Command consisted of Adolph Hitler. Anyone who thought otherwise found themselves dead

Plenty of ways. That's what diplomacy is for.

THe German High Command was a lot of people. Some of them were prepared to kill Hitler even in the real history when the Allies were clear they would never negotiate.


20 July plot - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


So it is reasonable to think that if negotiation was on the table, that more would have been open to such a move.

Hitler was absolute dictator....those who thought they could negotiate around him ended up quite dead

Those who plotted to kill Hitler also ended up dead along with their families and anyone remotely associated with him. The Gestapo was quite thorough in that area

 

[Correll]

I am giving him credit for that.

But as even RW said, it was an easy call to make.

A "C" is a passing grade.

If he could have gotten real concession(s) from Stalin for opening the Second Front, I might have given him a "B" or even an "A".

What concessions would you have liked to see?

Not sure. How about moving the Soviet control zones back a couple of hundred miles?

Or maybe negotiating with the German High Command for a conditional surrender, so as to deny the Soviets an empire that reaches all the way into the middle of Germany?

SOMETHING!

How do you move Soviet zones back when they are occupying them?

The German High Command consisted of Adolph Hitler. Anyone who thought otherwise found themselves dead

Plenty of ways. That's what diplomacy is for.

THe German High Command was a lot of people. Some of them were prepared to kill Hitler even in the real history when the Allies were clear they would never negotiate.


20 July plot - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


So it is reasonable to think that if negotiation was on the table, that more would have been open to such a move.

Hitler was absolute dictator....those who thought they could negotiate around him ended up quite dead

Those who plotted to kill Hitler also ended up dead along with their families and anyone remotely associated with him. The Gestapo was quite thorough in that area

Even in a reality of Unconditional Surrender, there were enough Germans in the High Command to try a coup, in the hope of a Conditional Surrender.

If a negotiated surrender was actually a real option, do you think the plotters would have had an easier time gaining support or a harder time gaining support?

 

[rightwinger]

What concessions would you have liked to see?

Not sure. How about moving the Soviet control zones back a couple of hundred miles?

Or maybe negotiating with the German High Command for a conditional surrender, so as to deny the Soviets an empire that reaches all the way into the middle of Germany?

SOMETHING!

How do you move Soviet zones back when they are occupying them?

The German High Command consisted of Adolph Hitler. Anyone who thought otherwise found themselves dead

Plenty of ways. That's what diplomacy is for.

THe German High Command was a lot of people. Some of them were prepared to kill Hitler even in the real history when the Allies were clear they would never negotiate.


20 July plot - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


So it is reasonable to think that if negotiation was on the table, that more would have been open to such a move.

Hitler was absolute dictator....those who thought they could negotiate around him ended up quite dead

Those who plotted to kill Hitler also ended up dead along with their families and anyone remotely associated with him. The Gestapo was quite thorough in that area

Even in a reality of Unconditional Surrender, there were enough Germans in the High Command to try a coup, in the hope of a Conditional Surrender.

If a negotiated surrender was actually a real option, do you think the plotters would have had an easier time gaining support or a harder time gaining support?

I doubt if it would have mattered

But what "terms" would you have offered? Would you have let them keep their concentration camps?

 

[Correll]

Not sure. How about moving the Soviet control zones back a couple of hundred miles?

Or maybe negotiating with the German High Command for a conditional surrender, so as to deny the Soviets an empire that reaches all the way into the middle of Germany?

SOMETHING!

How do you move Soviet zones back when they are occupying them?

The German High Command consisted of Adolph Hitler. Anyone who thought otherwise found themselves dead

Plenty of ways. That's what diplomacy is for.

THe German High Command was a lot of people. Some of them were prepared to kill Hitler even in the real history when the Allies were clear they would never negotiate.


20 July plot - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


So it is reasonable to think that if negotiation was on the table, that more would have been open to such a move.

Hitler was absolute dictator....those who thought they could negotiate around him ended up quite dead

Those who plotted to kill Hitler also ended up dead along with their families and anyone remotely associated with him. The Gestapo was quite thorough in that area

Even in a reality of Unconditional Surrender, there were enough Germans in the High Command to try a coup, in the hope of a Conditional Surrender.

If a negotiated surrender was actually a real option, do you think the plotters would have had an easier time gaining support or a harder time gaining support?

I doubt if it would have mattered

But what "terms" would you have offered? Would you have let them keep their concentration camps?

YOu don't think that it would have mattered that their stated policy goal was actually on the table as opposed to being publicly ruled out by their enemies?

IMO, the fact that there might have been actual encouragement from the US, would have had nothing but positive effects for the plotters.

My understanding is that there was a good deal of luck involved in HItlers survival.

A negotiated surrender in 1944 would have saved many lives and set the Soviet Occupation Zones far to the East, leading to a less scary Cold War.

Please. Obviously the first Condition would be de-nazification. And any group of German generals that were willing to kill Hitler would almost certainly be open to that.

Please don't stoop to Stat level games.